OT 308 or 30-06?

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:15 pm

I'm thinking about getting a 30-caliber bolt-action, and working on my intermediate-range skills. Right now all I have is a 243.

I am more interested in 308, but it seems as though 30-06 is much more common around here.

Are there any compelling reasons to choose one over the other?

EDIT I will be handloading, although I may start with some factory FMJ.

iceman · Post by **iceman** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:27 pm

I personally prefer the 308. In a bolt it is a shorter action like your 243. Some say it makes for a quicker bolt, but that is debatable, I think it is what your used to. with 165 gr bullets fairly close to 30-06, can handle most hunting needs, and an accurate round. The 30-06 outshines the 308 with larger bullets 200 gr and more due to its larger powder capacity. Both are excellent rounds and depends on if you reload or depending on factory rounds. The 308 has won a lot of matches maybe because of its shorter and supposedly stiffer action. I probably didn't make your decission easier. Just my .02 Iceman

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:30 pm

Not too much. The 06 has a longer action and uses a little more powder for the same velocity. Other than that they are really close.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:39 pm

Otto,

I have both. The performance level of the two cartridges overlap so much that other than a small physical size difference, there isn't much difference. It depends on what you like as far as the rifle.

Well, that's my take on it anyway.

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:37 pm

I disagree that they are the same. The 30-06s I have chronograph near or at 3000 fps with some factory 150s and 2975 to 3019 fps with 52 gr of 4064 and a 150. Chronographing 308s have usually produced 2750 to 2800 for the same weight. In my experience reloading for 4 of each all the 30-06s have been more consistently accurate that any of the 308s with the exception of a Kimber which is very close to the velocity of the 30-06 with 150s. When you get to heavier bullets 180-200 the advantage is greater for the 30-06.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:41 pm

I'm thinking about getting a 30-caliber bolt-action, and working on my intermediate-range skills. Right now all I have is a 243.

And the .243 wouldn't work because...........? It sure would shoot a heck of a lot flatter.

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:49 pm

I agree with Old savage, they are not the same animal. All things equal the .308 should be more accurate, and the 06 should give a bit more range, and down range pop.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:26 pm

You know Big, every time I got a 308 I was looking for the accuracy thing to be true but it wasn't except for the Kimber but that is at least a notch above factory rifles.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:53 pm

There is only one answer and it "may be" the 30-06

. There is nothing wrong at all with a 308, but there is more offerings with the ought 6. I do not agree that the 308 is more accurate, it is just as good, but not better. The 243 is fine as long as you like the lighter bullet weights.

Now, having said that - all of them will work and it just depends on what you want and like. I have shot deer with all three and can say this - I do not like a 243 for instantly dropping shots (but it works), I have never lost a deer with a 308 and I have "always" been impressed with a 30-06.

Actually, I probably did not help at all, but my two cents leans towards the 06.

Gene Dip · Post by **Gene Dip** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:57 pm

I've been a 308 Win enthusiast sinced 1962. When the 30-06 returns for serious bench competition or is again used for police and military purposes where accuracy counts, I might consider an '06. I'll give up a small number of fps's any time for greater accuracy for a hunting rifle. My 308's have all been modified for enhanced accuracy. No one handload performs optimally in each rifle. I find the following to be of interest on this subject:

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp

I use '06 and 35 Whelen cases for 338-06 AI and 375 Whelen IMP ammo. Ackley was ahead of his time.

Sorry to offend or bore anyone here. I've posted this too many times, but so has this subject been overdone.

edip

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:49 pm

They are both great cartridges. If you handload the 06 will give you the edge in velocity and heavy bullets. If you don't reload then the 308 right now has a better selection of "match" ammo available these days.
So you need to figure out if you want a long action cartridge that's won 2 world wars, and a couple of police actions,and has became the gold standard to which most other cartridges are compared,over the course of its 103 year lifespan,or the 50 something year old off spring of the old guy.

Bearhands · Post by **Bearhands** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:13 pm

They are both great cartridges. If you handload the 06 will give you the edge in velocity and heavy bullets. If you don't reload then the 308 right now has a better selection of "match" ammo available these days.
So you need to figure out if you want a long action cartridge that's won 2 world wars, and a couple of police actions,and has became the gold standard to which most other cartridges are compared,over the course of its 103 year lifespan,or the 50 something year old off spring of the old guy.

^

I'm not sure I've ever heard the comparison described better than that!!

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:16 pm

IMO it depends on what your going to be shooting for game and what the barrel lenght is.

my Rem 742 .308 only shoots the lighter weight bullets accurately the 180s spread to about a 5" group at 100 yrds and it wouldnt shoot the 147 grn Military Ball ammo good at all. IMO you really wont benefit with an 06 if you have an 18" barrel. I would try to get one with a 24" barrel. THe Weatherby Vanguards seem to be an excellent value!

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:24 pm

First what sort of shooting are you planning on doing if it is just targets the 243 shoots much flatter then the 30's with the heavier bullets.
If it is for hunting deer sized game at 300-500 yards then I would say the 308 is for you. If you are looking to shoot every thing from deer to moose then the 30-06 is the way to go it is much more suitable for the heavy bullets but shoots the lighter ones just as well. The .308 is quite capable of taking deer out to 800 yards but most shooters should never try it. Long range shooting takes a lot of practice and a solid understanding of external balistics.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:28 pm

I have a Rem. 700 PSS in 308 and it's one of the most accurate rifles I've ever shot or owned. I've never owned an '06 so I can't speak to that.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:15 pm

Any North American game animal hit properly with either of these cartridges will be DRT. We are discussing the difference of eenie and meenie. Gun writers for "Guns and Ammo" and other rags of their ilk have made a good living picking each to death for 50 years or so. Buy a quality rifle that fits you well, put on a decent scope and go to it with whichever suits your fancy, you will be well pleased with either.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:25 pm

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:28 pm

.308 as brass will certainly be available for the foreseeable future it being a military cartridge. I got a .308 Savage 99A for that reason.

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:54 pm

jnyork wrote:Any North American game animal hit properly with either of these cartridges will be DRT. We are discussing the difference of eenie and meenie. Gun writers for "Guns and Ammo" and other rags of their ilk have made a good living picking each to death for 50 years or so. Buy a quality rifle that fits you well, put on a decent scope and go to it with whichever suits your fancy, you will be well pleased with either.

YOU SAID IT ALL. 308 FOR A LIGHT ACTION LEVER LIKE THE BLR OR SAVAGE 99A. 06 IN A BOLT FOR 300 MAG PERFORMANCE WITH HORNADY AND FEDERAL MAG FACTORY LOADS. 220 GRAINS FOR ELEPHANTS. TWO GREAT ROUNDS

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:17 pm

Do you really believe that "size doesn't matter"? An honest woman would tell you the truth.

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:21 pm

RIHMFIRE wrote:'06

Me too.
But I'd buy a .348 first.

P

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:23 pm

Ya, I bought my .308 Ruger M77 at walmart years ago and it is sweet. I have taken lots of deer and other game with it. I can't seem to miss even small birds at 116 yards. I have never owned a 30.06 but believe it to would be an excellent rifle because it is "well what can I say "It is a .30 cal.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:43 pm

i recently posted on my range day with the .308 bolt gun. I like the round and don't miss the extra weight or 200fps. I shoot mine out to about 600 yards generally and somtimes to 1000. sub moa accuracy all the way out if I do my part.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:05 pm

While I like them both, I don't currently own either one. If I were to buy now, I'd probably go with the 308, mostly because I like short action bolt guns, and the 200 fps difference would probably go unnoticed.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:12 pm

JReed, now I am going to have to disagree on the 800 yd deer even if you can hit them. The bullet would be going about 1100 fps or less and that is just not going to make the bullet perform and is not adequate in power for dependble kills.

Also - the 243 is not appreciably flatter shooting than a 30-06, the 243 just kicks less.

CEMENTHEAD · Post by **CEMENTHEAD** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:16 pm

It's a toss up. I have both and I am the better for having them...

!!!

I have 3 bolt guns in .308 ( Remington 700 LTR and SPS, Savage Model 10 Tactical) and 2, 30-06's (An Ultra Light Arms bolt gun and a 7600 Remington pump carbine). I have to admit in the bolt guns with 24" barrels the '06 beats the .308 in bullet weights above 180 grains.

Pick your poison, both are winners and All American as only the .30 calibers can be..........

Thanks, Tom

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:40 pm

OS I say that due to the fact that men and deer are about the same density the 308 drops full grown men all the time out to 800 I know guys that do it. The 243 with a 115gr like the Berger VLD has a very high bc (.551) and can be launched out of the 243 a lot faster then a 30-06 can launch a bullet with similar numbers the .243 and the other 6mm's are great long range rounds for target shooting.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:59 pm

JReed wrote:OS I say that due to the fact that men and deer are about the same density the 308 drops full grown men all the time out to 800 I know guys that do it. The 243 with a 115gr like the Berger VLD has a very high bc (.551) and can be launched out of the 243 a lot faster then a 30-06 can launch a bullet with similar numbers the .243 and the other 6mm's are great long range rounds for target shooting.

Maybe I'll just play with the 243 for awhile then, as the only hunting I do is woodchucking, and the occasional nuisance deer. They seem to drop pretty quickly with 65gr polymer tips, which aren't really "deer" bullets, so something in the 90-100gr range should do just as well. I do want to get a 30-cal at some point, though, in case of... well... just because.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:05 pm

By all means get a 30 cal.
I was just trying to point out that the .243 is one excelent long range target and varmint round. You can shoot every thing from 58gr pills up to 115gr and still have over 3,000fps @ the muzzle if you reload. But with all that said I am in no hurry to trade in my .308 I'll just get my self a .243 to go with it.

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:33 pm

JR, I don't dispute at all what you say about the skill of military snipers. I do disagree with the premise that men and deer are the same here as the mission is different. Military is wound or kill. Hunting - the goal is certainly kill. I think few hunters are going to think that a 30 cal hunting round at 1100 fps is adequate for the hunting mission. Sierra for instance recommends and impact velocity of at least 1800 fps for their 150 gr bullet. Otherwise you are just going to drill a hole which military bullets are designed to do.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:36 pm

But, but, but . . . what about a 7mm-08, or a .280 Remington...?

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:42 pm

Or,....

You already have the short action gun. You can get a good gunsmith to make you a switch barrel gun on your action by fitting a 308 barrel. Then you can switch between the 243 and 308.

For longer ranges, there are better rounds than 308. The 260 Rem has the trajectory of a 300 Win mag at 1000 yards when decent bullets are used, and the 7-08 also shoots much flatter than the 308, but with a little heavier bullets than the 260. Both have heavier bullets available than the 243. If larger animals arent on the agenda, you have more options, and may do what you want better than the 308.

http://demigod.com/articles/the-case-fo ... remington/

Post by **Old Savage** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:46 pm

7-08 much flatter??? How much? I think you won't find much practical difference with apples to apples load comparison.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:56 pm

Malamute wrote: http://demigod.com/articles/the-case-fo ... remington/

This takes me to a dating service.

It's funny you guys mentioned the 260, 7-08, and 280, as I had been looking at those and the 270. I am somewhat sensitive to recoil, and thought the 260 might be a good compromise- heavier bullets than the 243, less recoil than the 308 or 30-06. I was afraid, though, that ammo and brass for the first three would be difficult to find. I don't really want to mess with case-forming.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:09 pm

As long as you can find 308 cases you can make 243,260,7mm08,338federal, and 358 winchester.
3006 cases can be turned into 6mm06,25-06,6.506,270,280,338-06,35 whelen.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:15 pm

I know this doesn't really apply here but just for kicks Barnes used to make a 250 gr. .30 cal bullet a few years ago. BC on that thing was staggering.

I've had both but only have the .308 now for the reason Hobie stated. Brass and ammo are cheap.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:32 pm

Oops, sorry about that, I missed a couple characters in the address. Try this,

http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-case ... remington/

Yes, "much flatter" should have probably been "flatter, with higher retained velocity and energy". The difference between 145 gr Speer boat tails in 7mm (bc of .500+) @ 2900+ fps vs the 150 gr 30 cal boat tail (bc of .423) @ 2800+ fps is about 6" less drop @ 500 yards with a 200 yard zero for both.

I'm going to try the 260. I've been making cases from some 243's I had around (and no 243 rifle). Just run them into the sizing die like normal, and trim. Nothing fancy. I don't believe it will go into a 243 mistakenly, the bullet is larger, tho you can get 260 brass easily enough.

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:00 am

Mal, I don't think you are going to get that kind of velocity difference in similar guns. There is no ballistic reason that the 145 7-08 would be faster than a 150 3-08 in similar barrels. One has a small advantage in BC and the other has an advantage in base area and the amount of powder you can burn. Ken Waters finds them about equal in 24 in barrels he tested them in. Individual rifles have differences of course. I have chronographed a lot of both. If you want any particular advantage you have to change case capacity.

Fastest I could get in mine with 145s is about 2775. It is a 20" but agrees pretty closely with the Sierra 24" data, small difference. I would be surprised if 22" barrels could get more than about 2850. Speer comes up with some odd comparison data between calibers. I called them about that. They said that is what we got in the rifles we used.

Now in a 22" 280 I tested for a few hundred rounds those velocities could be achieved. As always you have to work with your own gun. I try to use highs vs highs or averages vs averages for different caliber comparisons.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:45 am

Since we migrated to "flattest", I'd get rid of all of 'em that you are talking about and get the most accurate, least recoil, most deadly.....the 6.5 X 55.

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:35 am

HMMM, I somehow figured this may take a turn after I went to bed last night so I may as well turn the wheel again... I would go get a 30-30 as there is no better in this world to target shoot, hunt deer, elk, bear, elephants, and Rhinos out to 3000 yards if you use the "right bullet" that is, I do not want to cause any Arguments in that statement!....

86er · Post by **86er** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:44 pm

I have not noticed any difference in the terminal effect on animals with either cartridge up to 165 grain. When you get heavier bullets than 165 the '06 starts to take over due to the velocity that a) helps the trajectory of the heavier bullet, and b) gets the velocity to get the appropriate expansion from the heavier bullets. We used a 308 in Africa with 165gr Nosler Partitions at 2550 fps. Every animal was one shot kill with little or no travel after being hit. This includes Gemsbok (450 lbs - 180 yds), Waterbuck (650 lbs.- 100 yds), and Eland (1680 lbs.- 60 yds). Another client used a 30-06 with the same bullets loaded to 2800 fps. On the same pool of animals at similar ranges and the effect was virtually identical. All were mid shoulder shots straight up the front leg and all impacts were very close to the point of aim.

TX Gun Runner · Post by **TX Gun Runner** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:55 pm

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:00 pm

The "someday gun" is a Savage 99 TD in .308 or a BLR TD in .308.

Always nice to be able to feed it milsurp that isn't from WWI ('03).

I can't see out to those theoretical 30-06 distances anyway.

dbateman · Post by **dbateman** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:39 pm

o.k so the 308 dose what the 30-06 dose with 180gr pills with 165gr
i have a soft spot for the 06 but dont own one it is on the list of things to get if
i see one that calls out to
however i do own 3 308 a rugger M77 brono 601 and a old K98 converted by Israel
and have hunted every animal in north Australia with this caliber and have alot of faith in this round to stop any
animal on the face of the earth IF YOU PUT THE SHELL WERE IT COUNTS.
the 06 or 308 are both fine cartridges
and i see the 35 whelen being mentioned man i love that round never shot anything with that round that didnt just fall over and die
on the spot

AndyM · Post by **AndyM** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:48 pm

I own both. A 308 in a Winchester 88 and 2 30-06 a Remington 700 and a Remington 7600 carbine. For a true hunting gun, I think a 30-06 is very hard to beat, but for shooting targets I would get the .308. There is a better availability of match ammo available for the 308, plus in a bolt gun, the short action should be more stiff and possibly more prone to provide better accuracy.

Buy both then sell the one you like the least.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:54 pm

AndyM wrote:...Buy both then sell the one you like the least.

Yeah, right.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:07 pm

Otto wrote: It's funny you guys mentioned the 260, 7-08, and 280, as I had been looking at those and the 270. I am somewhat sensitive to recoil, and thought the 260 might be a good compromise- heavier bullets than the 243, less recoil than the 308 or 30-06. I was afraid, though, that ammo and brass for the first three would be difficult to find. I don't really want to mess with case-forming.

Brass for the .280 was easy for me to find, and I was surprised to see that looking at factory ballistics tables the .280 Rem isn't that many inches from a 7mm Remington Magnum in trajectory at 500 yards! It shoots ballistically excllent and very common 7mm bullets, and isn't as powder-consuming as the 7mm Mag. Most people comment that it recoils like a .25-06 (mild). My 'suggestion' was mostly me causing trouble by mixing up the .308/.30-06 debate a bit, but the .280 is a serious cartridge. Brass was easy to find at Midway in several brands, and as mentioned, you can form it from .30-06 if you had to. I bought factory stuff just so as to not mix them up so easily.

Hard to go wrong with the .280, although I plan to reload for it vs. buy factory stuff.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:18 pm

can you make .356wcf cases from the .308wcf?

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:22 pm

tman wrote:can you make .356wcf cases from the .308wcf?

Nope to my understanding the .356 is a rimmed case the .308 is not.

blackhawk44 · Post by **blackhawk44** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:31 pm

Otto, the .308 fits in a Browning Lever Rifle far better than a .30-06 does.