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Just took delivery, this week, of my very first Colt SAA, First Generation six gun. It was made in 1882 and was used by the US Cavalry, Artillery (thus the 5 & 1/2" barrel). It was completely restored (which knocked the collector's value down low enough for me to afford) but the original US markings and inspector's stamps, as well as the other markings, were preserved. This will probably be my wilderness gun for remote canoe trips into the northern wilderness.
I've never even handled a Colt SAA before. It is much lighter than my other sixgun, an original S&W 2nd Model American made in 1873 with a 8" barrel. The thing I really like about it is that I can cock it without shifting my grip. On the S&W, the hammer is about 1/2" further forward and a bit of a reach without having to shift ones grip. Prior to 1873, the 1st and 2nd Model American, in 44 American caliber, were used by the US Cavalry. For civilian use, however, the S&W was much more common in the Old West prior to 1890, when the number of Colts in civilian hands became more plentiful than the number of top break S&W's. Below is a photo of my Colt, and below that is a photo of both the Colt and the old S&W 2nd Model American for comparison.
Last edited by KirkD on Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Way to go, Kirk! You will come to carry that little piece everywhere because it just fits. Standard, off the shelf, .45 ammo will do harm. Heck, load 'yer own like I do. 8 grs Unique will do nicely.
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged"....President Abraham Lincoln
Oops, missed a word there. I mean't to say that off the shelf .45 C ammo will do NO harm.
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged"....President Abraham Lincoln
That is a great looking Colt SAA artillery. Who ever did the restoration knew what they were doing. I have five 1st generations and four 3rds. I love all of them but end up taking a "aged" Burnt Mill gunsmith Cimarron 5 1/2 artillery 45 colt a lot of the time because of the way it looks, feels, and shoots. I shoot all of them. Let us know how it shoots.
Last edited by rangerider7 on Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe, I ordered the Lyman 454190 double cavity mould today, along with a .454 sizing die. It's going to take a couple weeks to get that mould. In the meantime, I'll be chomping at the bit. I'm not sure what powder I'll be using yet ..... I have to put some thought into it .... maybe 5744, but 2400 and SR4759 are also likely candidates. I won this sixgun in a Rock Island Auction. It means I'll have to sell my 2nd Model American, but the Colt seems to be more practical. It is lighter, faster out of the holster, faster to cock with a proper grip, and the shorter 5 & 1/2" barrel (compared to the 8" barrel on the S&W) will be more maneuverable in a wrestling match with a Cougar or Black Bear.
The bore in this old sixgun is something I've never seen before. It doesn't have your standard grooves and lands. Instead, it's smooth with thin, sharp lands (triangular cross-section) spiraling up the bore. I guess this was the way those early first-gen bores were rifled.
Rangerider, I do not know who restored it, but it came with an old GunBroker printout from 2003 and someone had taken a yellow highlighter and highlighted Turnbulls. Can't say for sure though. I sent it down to Hunter Restorations to have the cylinder to barrel gap adjusted nice and tight, and the timing. The trigger is light and crisp and it cocks and indexes like a Swiss watch.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Kirk D, not to put a damper on your nice Colt SAA but I think, I'm no expert, the cylinder should be beveled on the front if it is the original. It is still a great looking shooter and thats what you got it for. Just my two cents.
Photo # 1 shows an 1884 vintage SAA in .44 Winchester Central Fire or .44 W.C.F. (known today as a .44-40). It has an attractive etched panel on the left side of the barrel that says COLT FRONTIER SIX SHOOTER. This gun has typical early features such as the beveled cylinder on the front face near the flutes, small front sight and a screw that comes through the bottom of the frame to retain the cylinder base pin. Collectors today refer to this feature as a black powder frame. It also has the 4 3/4 inch barrel that became popular in the 1880s.
Last edited by rangerider7 on Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rangerider, the cylinder in the photo is a replacement, stronger one chambered for the 45 Schofield. I still have the original cylinder that came with the gun, but in Canada the 45 Colt is not a legal antique cartridge but the 45 Schofield is. I'll probably sell the original cylinder on Gunbroker. With the replacement, stronger cylinder, I'll be loading the 45 Schofield cartridges with the same bullet and the same ballistics as the original 45 Colt loads. To be an antique in Canada, the frame must be made before 1898 and it must be chambered in an obsolete calibre. An antique does not have to be registered and it does not need the normal permits. If I were a collector, I certainly would not sell the original cylinder, but I bought this gun to pack into the wilderness on family canoe trips and it will be used. I should have taken the photo with the original cylinder for authenticity's sake, but I left the cylinder in the NY State at my sister-in-law's place so it would be handier to sell.
Last edited by KirkD on Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Many years ago I worked in a gun store / second hand shop. They had a Colt SAA in there with that exact rifling. I've asked about it several times, but no one has been able to tell me anything.
Could you be able to photo the rifling at the muzzle maybe?
Also just from my way of thinking I wouldn't sell the original cylinder. It's part of the gun. Just keep it. Someday you may want or need to sell it and that original cylinder will just add to the package.
Why are you going to have to sell your S&W??
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
She's a beauty Kirk. I figured that if you were getting a refinished one you'd make sure it was in an antique caliber too. I'm hoping to track down a refinished antique 44-40 one of these days that I can convert to 44 Russian or 44 Special.
Kirk,
Yes, whoever did the resto, did a fine job. The colors are perfect. Very nice looking piece.
Congrats!!!! If you think the Winchester game is addictive, well, buddy, you now have two serious addictions. No longer will Rugers (I know you live in Canada) nice old double action "Smiths and Colts feed your "need". If it ain't a single action Colt, it ain't s__..... (well, you know the word)
The thin rifling you see is the black powder rifling. Very narrow lands so the fouling does not build up as fast. In my first gen Colts, this type of rifling shoots smokeless great.
A powder I am addicted to (for close to forty years) is Unique. 5 or 6 grains will work fine out of your blackpowder Colt, especially with the newer cylinder--------Keep us posted (ps--you and I both know that original cylinder ain't going nowhere )-------------Sixgun
Nice score, Kirk. I have two 3rd gens and I'd love to have a 1st in 45 Colt w/4.75" bbl. And what are you going to ask for your American Schofield? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Joe, I going to sell the old S&W because I can't afford to have all that money tied up in a gun that I am no longer going to use. I really hate to do it ... The gun just reeks of the Old West, but it is six gun that is very hard to find in that condition and is now worth at least $4,600. I packed it into the northern wilderness last year but now the Colt will take over that job. The old S&W is worth too much to be in the hands of a shooter like me and I can't afford to have something worth that much just hanging on the wall and shot on rare occasions.
Regarding the original cylinder for the Colt, however, I find myself increasingly reluctant to sell it. I think you might be right. I should keep it.
Regarding the barrel, it might be a Pope. I won't be back home till later this evening. I'll check into it. Also, I'll see if I can take a photo of the bore ... I don't know if my cheap pocket camera can do it but I'll give it a try.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Kirk, I envy you! I hope one day to say the same. I have 2 suggestions.....1st, get yourself a flap holster to carry it in with a snap or other device to secure the gun in it. You won't be sorry. 2nd,.......try shooting some of the bullets you cast as they drop out of the mold. They might shoot better than those sized DOWN to .454". Know why? The original bullet diameter for the .45 Colt was .456". Check the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook......any edition. I don't think your barrel was replaced, was it? If you slug that 1882 barrel, you might find it's bigger than .454" & you just might get better accuracy from them as they come from the mold. Just my 2 cents, jd45
JD45, some government bureaucrat who probably couldn't find his backside with both hands made up that rule.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
My 454190 is an Ideal mold. It casts beautiful 255gr bullets with wheel weight alloy.
And it does cast a bit large. I used to size them to .454", but after about 30 years of knowing the factory bullet diameter I have been sizing them with a .455" sizing die. They actually come out to .4555". Very close to the original Winchester, Dominion, and Remington diameters.
From the small amount of shooting I've been able to do with them sized this way I've found they work real good. Even out of the smaller sized bores. The trick is do not cast them hard. Wheel weights or 20-1 is right for this bullet.
Your new Lyman 454190 might not cast out as large, I've wondered about that some. And from the pics I've seen it looks as if they've changed the size of the flat nose. Looks like they made it bigger.
So, when you get yours and get some cast, I'd like to compare notes with you.
Oh, I gotta warn you, the .45 S&W (Schofield) round from a Colt type SA is a very deceptive feeling round. I loaded up some with a 230gr bullet over 5.7grs of 231. Shoots very good, with a very light recoil. But the velocity seems to be good enough to get the job done.
I haven't tried the heavier bullets from my S&W cases yet. I don't really have enough and I haven't felt like ordering any.
The bullet I do want to try though is a 230gr Lyman 454424 HP. Shoots really nice from the .45 Colt cases, I'll bet it's sweet from the S&W cases too.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
rangerider7, I'd like to draw your attention to an aspect of the pic of the Colt SAA, circa 1884 you posted. Look at the forwardmost tip of the hammer, where it meets with the slot in the cylinderframe. The hammer is contoured in such a way so as to blend in with the curvature of the curve at the rear of the topstrap. I would ask you, do you agree with me that ALL the Colt SAA hammers should've been contoured this way, (hint, hint,hint), because I absolutely LOVE this design. I Respect your thoughts on this, & thanx, jd45
Well, I got home and slugged the bore. This is one weird bore! It is not round in cross-section. Rather, it seems to have six flats, with a sharp edged then ridge at the joining of each flat. But the flats aren't completely flat, but seem to be slightly curved, though not with the radius of the bore, but a larger radius. So I measured the slug. Across the curved 'flats' it is .447" and across the corners, where two curved flats meet, it is .461". The cross section shape of the bullet once it emerges from the bore looks like a hexagon. That is the strangest bore I've ever seen!
According to a short article I just read on original Artillery revolvers, they were shipped back to the factory to be rebuilt with a shortened barrel (shortened from 7 & 1/2 to 5 & 1/2). They were then re-assembled but with no attempt to re-match the serial numbers of the parts, so all Artillery Colts usually have a mixture of serial numbered parts. In my case, the barrel has a serial number of 5043, which seems to be to be a pretty early barrel. So maybe some real early barrels had this unusual bore. The bore itself appears to be in excellent condition.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Kirk, with your slugging its bore at .461", I would again try your "dropped from the mold" bullets as I suggested to see if they might shoot better BEFORE you de-size them. Let us know, jd45
JD45, I wouldn't say the bore slugs at .461. That is the max distance between the edges of the curved flats. The minimum distance goes from .447 across the center of the curved 'flats' and gradually increases to .454 just before the edge of the 'flats' are reached. So I'd say that most of the bore is .454 or less, but the part at the base of the sharp thin ridges increases quite suddenly to .461. The best description I can give is that the bore is close to being hexagonal in cross section. I'm sure a Colt expert would be familiar with this, but I don't know any Colt experts. Maybe Sixgun knows, or JimT.
Regardless, you can expect a range report in about a month, once I receive my order from Track of the Wolf and then get some bullets cast.
Pokey, if this six gun turns out to be a real nice shooter, then I just might get that modern cylinder properly bevelled to match the original cylinder.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Kirk,
That's a really nice Colt SAA! Like you, I always wanted the real deal, but it took me about 40 years of wanting to finally find one I could afford, and was in nice shape too. I'd be tickled to death to have one that was nicely restored like your's! Enjoy!-Vall
jd45, Yes I like the hammer very much of this run of Colt SAAs. My preference is the Colt SAAs around the turn of the century with the round trigger guard, beveled cylinder, small front sight, and contoured hammer. Not only do they look good but they are considered the strongest made 1st generation single actions, golden years, by many collectors.
Last edited by rangerider7 on Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
KirkD wrote:JD45, I wouldn't say the bore slugs at .461. That is the max distance between the edges of the curved flats. The minimum distance goes from .447 across the center of the curved 'flats' and gradually increases to .454 just before the edge of the 'flats' are reached. So I'd say that most of the bore is .454 or less, but the part at the base of the sharp thin ridges increases quite suddenly to .461. The best description I can give is that the bore is close to being hexagonal in cross section. I'm sure a Colt expert would be familiar with this, but I don't know any Colt experts. Maybe Sixgun knows, or JimT.
Regardless, you can expect a range report in about a month, once I receive my order from Track of the Wolf and then get some bullets cast.
Pokey, if this six gun turns out to be a real nice shooter, then I just might get that modern cylinder properly bevelled to match the original cylinder.
PM'd ya.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Rangerider, the cylinder in the photo is a replacement, stronger one chambered for the 45 Schofield. I still have the original cylinder that came with the gun, but in Canada the 45 Colt is not a legal antique cartridge but the 45 Schofield is.
You answered my question right there!
I really shouldn't be looking at pictures of these old REAL (I make do with a clone) guns. I can't see me ever finding (and justifying) the resourses to acquire one.
jd45 wrote:Joe, Lyman offers a .45 caliber hollow point ???? Wait a minute...........I ain't about to cast my own!!!!! To HELL with THAT!!! jd45
jd, they used to offer them. A forum member over at Handloads.com has one of the molds and sells the bullets occasionally. Mucho expensive, but they shoot real good.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
20Cows, if I could legally pack a repro 45 Colt in the bush instead of having to ante up for an antique, I surely would. However, I have to work within what little flexibility the system provides up here.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
I tried to take some photos of the bore and these were the two best ones (my apologies). The first shows the muzzle and you can sort of make out the hexagonal shape to the bore. The second one focuses on the thin, sharp lands (the curvy thing is my bore light curving in at the far end). You can see that the thin lands are very thin indeed.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Kirk, I'm pretty sure what you've got is Henry style rifling or polygonal rifling in in that beauty, same style as the good old "Martin 'Enry Rifles" had. Enjoy!
"IT IS MY OPINION, AND I AM CORRECT SO DON'T ARGUE, THE 99 SAVAGE IS THE FINEST RIFLE EVER MADE IN AMERICA."
WIL TERRY
Kirk, I believe that the rifling type your gun has is typical of first generation SAs. I looked at the bores on a couple of mine and they have the same narrow lands. Upon removing the cylinder on a Frontier Six Shooter, I realized that it had not been cleaned in months. Oops, it had to be de-crudded to see the shine. It has been in a holster in my PU since last fall.
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged"....President Abraham Lincoln
Mike D. wrote:Kirk, I believe that the rifling type your gun has is typical of first generation SAs. I looked at the bores on a couple of mine and they have the same narrow lands. Upon removing the cylinder on a Frontier Six Shooter, I realized that it had not been cleaned in months. Oops, it had to be de-crudded to see the shine. It has been in a holster in my PU since last fall.
I believe your are correct. My 1st Generation .32-20 barrel has the same narrow lands .. look to be about the same height.
jd45 wrote:Question Kirk, why in HELL is the .45 Colt NOT regarded as an antique cartridge in Canada, when it PRE-DATES the .45 Schofield??? Just curious, jd45
I'm guessing that, while Kirk's assessment is probably correct as well, this is one of those funny little Gun Control laws that shows what gun control is really all about... keeping guns out of the hands of the commonors but keeping them available for the Elite.
By mandating that the gun use an OBSOLETE cartridge rather than a commonly available one, it makes it so that only Rich Collectors and dedicated Gun Cranks get to actually have useable firearms.
No normal Joe will be protecting himself from Goblin or Government with a .44 Russian or .45 Schofield...
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
Here's a photo of the slug that shows the narrow lands better. The lands measure no wider than .03" and the grooves are about .188". The other thing I'm not used to is that the groove radius is quite a bit larger than the bore radius with the result that the distance across the center of the grooves is .447, but the distance across the edge of the grooves is .461. This is consistent for all the grooves. This shaped the slug into a hexagonal cross section with very slightly rounded flats. Since I've never handled a Colt SAA before, first generation or otherwise, this type of rifling was new to me. I learn something every day.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
.***
I packed it into the northern wilderness last year but now the Colt will take over that job. The old S&W is worth too much to be in the hands of a shooter like me and I can't afford to have something worth that much just hanging on the wall and shot on rare occasions. 
