1886 blackpowder only?

[Bang]

Hello Gents

I was going through my old emails looking for advice from Paco back in 2001 about my stockless .358Win Model 99 Savage. Alot has happened since - illness, marriage, babies, new house, new rifles etc. I bought new wood from the US of A and it is still in its original wrappers

So today i look for advice again.

I dug out my .40-82 1886 Winchester 1/2 magazine rifle. Overall the monster is in great condition except for the front sight blade that moves in its slot ( i was simply going to glue it down ). The rear sight is missing and there is a peep at the rear.

As far as i know its a blackpowder barrel - I can see nothing to indicate a 1890's nickel steel barrel like what is on my .30-40 1895 Winchester musket.

Now I am sure I read back on the old sixgunner.com website that people still loaded modern powders into the .40-82 at old BP velocities without issues. It was the "elephant stopper" loads with modern powders that people made up - that blew the rifles up.

Frankly I dislike blackpowder for obvious safety reasons but do I have any alternatives for such a calibre ?
Once we had great resources online but alas the internet is 90% garbage with 8% almost useful information and 2% gold.

Is there anyone here that loads .40-82 that can assist me some loads to try ?

BTW - What is it that these cresent butt plates ?
Is there a comfortable way of shooting the rifle ? When I shoulder the rifle I can't find a comfortable shooting postion on my shoulder.

[Hobie]

You're going to get some info in a bit. But for now, WELCOME HOME!

[Kansas Ed]

We have two that we load for. Both are std. rifle configuration. I get 265gr GC bullets from Leadheads, and resize them from .412 to .4085 for the 40-82. Our rifles are tight chambered with loose bores, so it requires a case neck turning operation to get the cartridge to chamber with that .4085 dia. bullet. Hopefully you can get by with the std. .406 diameter bullets.

One rifle likes 28.0 grs. of IMR-4198 with a CCI-BR2 primer and one sheet of single ply toilet paper over the powder as a filler. Velocity is 1489 fps with a SD of 8.

The other rifle likes 42.0 gr. of IMR-3031, CCI-BR2 primer and one sheet of single ply toilet paper over the powder as a filler. Velocity is 1753 fps with a SD of 20.

Both of these rifles surprised us. They pretty much will digest anything fairly well, and shot to sights right off the bat. I used mine in 2007 to take a Mo. buck, and he hit the ground so hard I'd swear he bounced.

Ed

[Tycer]

The crescent buttplate fits over your arm, the bottom of it will be in your armpit. It feels odd for about two shots.

Welcome to the community. Pull up a chair.

[otteray]

Your front sight blade looseness: Rather than glue, have you tried peening or (what's the word, stippling?) the slot's base
with a small steel punch to roughen up the area for a snug fit?
I don't know nuthin' bout no Winchesters and their steel; but my 1889 Marlin 38-40 is the pre smokeless steel, I believe; and my 1893 38-55 Marlin "Black Powder Barrel" both love 5744 and cast bullets, with mild loads of course.
Venturino's "Shooting Leverguns of the Old West" shows a cast bullet load using XMP5744 powder in a Win. 1886 40-82.
My late father who owned a few, used to say that those actions are super strong; and Venturino states the same in his wonderful book.

[Bang]

Hi

I might try soft solder on the front sight.
If i try to put back an original style rear buckhorn sight i will have to change the front blade anyway.

Currently there is a little peep sight attached to rear of the breech block. It's been there since before WW1. The rear sight slot in the barrel just has a small block of brass in it to protect the bevel.

Less than years ago I used it and took down a Sambar doe at 50yards as I walked out of the shed to sight the rifle in but I was using my grandfather's BP loaded rounds he made 25+ years ago.
There are 4 rounds left so reloading is essential if I want to use the rifle rather than it be a wall hanger.

.40-82 cases are a breeze, I bought 100 of them from Bertrum Brass** in Seymor - now I just have to search a 2 car garage chock full of "good rubbish" to find the dies.
>>Searching I have found 4 sets of .223 dies and 2 sets of .455 webley dies, a whole case of Lake City 30-06 from the 1970's (I didn't know I had), a box each of Starline cases in 7.62x25mm and .30-40 and the entire wood set for the 1895 musket...alas no .40-82 dies yet.


Cheers

**Yes I know Bertrum cases are sometimes inconsistant either perfect or rough, irregular and sometimes with odd rim diameters but he is ~1hrs drive away and has no issues with returns. I always anneal his cases as experience has shown that his cases are often brittle from the drawing process - especially at $1-10 each -a split neck on a new case is a annoying.

[geobru]

First thing to do is slug your barrel to find out the bore dimension. Kansas Ed sizes his to .4085, my 86 was made in 1887 and the bore is .409, so I load it with bullets sized to .410. As KE said, you then have to do some neck reaming to get the loaded cartridges to chamber. If your gun has the "standard" .406 diameter bore, you won't have to worry about this step.

My gun likes 25 grains of 5744, topped off with a cornmeal filler to the top of the case and compressed with the bullet. This round was cronied at 1495 feet per second. Another load that works well in that gun is 36 grains of 3031 with cornmeal filler. Some guys don't like using cornmeal, but this gun prefers it over TP, while my 45-90 prefers a single sheet of TP. I tried FFg, but didn't have much luck as far as accuracy is concerned. You will have to find out what your gun likes best.

The other quirk about the 1886 40-82 is that it has a 28:1 rifling twist rate, which won't stabilize bullets much over 280 grains. IIRC my bullets are around 275 grains and they stabilize nicely. Check out the greenhill formula, it is your friend with the express rifing!

I only have experience with two 86's, but each one has its own personality, and you have to get to know it before you will have much success.

Good luck and have fun with it!

[winchester1886]

Bang, if you give us the serial number we can tell you if it is a smokeless or black powder rifle, plus we just love talking about 86's anything is an excuse.

[Mike D.]

As with other models of black powder caliber Winchesters, there will be the occasional nickel steel barrel threaded onto an 1886, but only on those guns manufactured post 1900. The .40-82 was dropped from production in 1911, so only a handful will be found that do have these smokeless powder barrels. Most do not, as there were a lot of early, ordnance steel barrels remaining to mount on BP caliber guns. The only way to determine the barrel steel is to remove the forend and look at the markings on the bottom flat, adjacent to the receiver. Nickel steel barrels will usually be marked INS or MNS, along with the caliber and other inspectors marks. Rarely are these guns marked "Nickel Steel, Especially For Smokeless Powder" on the top left of the barrel like the "lightweight" Winchesters are.

[Str8man]

I can't help you in regards to loads for that rifle but I had a Winchester with the same front sight problem.
I took it out and cleaned it and the slot with laquer thinner and mixed up some pro bed 2000 glass bedding compound and smeared it on the base of the sight and the dovetail and put it back in, wiped off the excess with laquer thinner and let it sit over night. JB weld would likely work just as well.
Just make absolutely sure it is exactly where you want it when you set it aside to dry as it will never move again without considerable work.
Mine has held up to pretty hard use for several years now.

[Bang]

oh no ! - me with a screwdriver?

Where is that chewed up chinese made "bubba" screw driver?

BRB

[Bang]

Bang, if you give us the serial number we can tell you if it is a smokeless or black powder rifle, plus we just love talking about 86's anything is an excuse.

Lets see if i can find it ?

[Mike D.]

Bang, your 1886 was manufactured in 1889 and is most definitely a "black powder" gun. The Nickel Steel barrel was introduced in 1895 and the "smokeless frame" came along with the new .33 WCF cartridge in 1902.
There is no reason that you cannot shoot reasonable smokeless loads in your .40-82. Regardless of manufacture date the '86 is excessively strong, but caution should be exercised out of respect for the gun's age and value as a collector piece.

[Bang]

Okay i have another question regarding projectiles.

I found i have some .406 Barnes SP 270g projectiles i bought for my 40-65. These are "suppose to be soft copper jackets" , should I be able use them in the 40-82
or should i stick to standard soft crimped cast ?

I swaged the bore at a final .4077 - but it was way easier at the chamber end than the muzzle end.

[Wind]

Bang - When I run across some raggedy sight or magazine tube type dovetails, I cut a slim shim to take up the slack. Most of the sights I have dealt with drive out from left to right. I cut a shim from brass shim stock, but a chunk cut out of the side of a Coke (Pepsi) can also works fine. If you're doing the Coke can thing, folding over a single layer will make a really thick shim. I cut it slightly wedge shaped, lay it in the barrel dovetail so some hangs over both sides, the wider wedge end on the right. As you drive the front sight back in over the shim, the wedge shape keeps it from sliding on through. Something like a sharp utility knife blade will score the shim from the bottom side (usually in under the sight foot) and you can bend the shim up and down a few times and it will break off. This leaves the sight adjustable and no unsightly peen marks. Thanks for the opportunity to launch another opinion, watch yer top knot. Wind

[Gun Smith]

Hey, bang, it's OK to shoot jacketed bullets in these guns. The only warning is not shooting a LOT of jacketed stuff in these old steel barrels.

[geobru]

The .406 jacketed bullets will work a lot better than .406 cast in a .4077 barrel. They seem to engage with the rifling better that the undersize lead do.

IIRC the .406 jacketed bullets that I shot before I got the right sized cast (.410) for my gun were hitting around 4" at 50 yards while the .406 cast bullets were twice that.

+1

Hey, bang, it's OK to shoot jacketed bullets in these guns. The only warning is not shooting a LOT of jacketed stuff in these old steel barrels.