New to lever guns.
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Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
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Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
New to lever guns.
Other than a Henry .22 I am fairly new to lever guns. I am looking at geting a 1860 Henry. What manufacturer would be the best to purchase this from. I am wanting something that I can shoot often in a .45. I was looking at a EMF 1860 Henry Rifle, Brass Frame, .45 Caliber, 24" White Octagonal Barrel. Are these reliable. I was also looking at Uberti, but they don't seem to offer it in a stainless(white) barrel. What can I expect to pay. I will be going to a gun show soon and wanted to be informed. Thanks, this is a great site.
I don't know much about Henry's either, but I like your idea!Other than a Henry .22 I am fairly new to lever guns. I am looking at geting a 1860 Henry. What manufacturer would be the best to purchase this from. I am wanting something that I can shoot often in a .45. I was looking at a EMF 1860 Henry Rifle, Brass Frame, .45 Caliber, 24" White Octagonal Barrel.
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Chuck 100 yd
- Advanced Levergunner
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- Location: Ridgefield WA. USA
BTT-
rock-steady
- Levergunner 2.0
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- Location: Deplorable Red State
Welcome to the forum, make yerself at home.
You might want to look at the website owned by Nate"Kiowa" Jones. He's quite a gunsmith in the cowboy action circles. you might get some information from him. His '92's are top shelf, and he knows about all things lever.
I was thinking about purchasing one of the Norinco leveraction shotguns until I got a response from him. He changed my mind.
Rusty <><
You might want to look at the website owned by Nate"Kiowa" Jones. He's quite a gunsmith in the cowboy action circles. you might get some information from him. His '92's are top shelf, and he knows about all things lever.
I was thinking about purchasing one of the Norinco leveraction shotguns until I got a response from him. He changed my mind.
Rusty <><
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
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Ysabel Kid
- Moderator
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- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
- Location: South Carolina, USA
- Contact:
Henry Rifles
Even though I am new to the board, It seems that I might be able to help a little on the Henry Rifles since I have owned a few.
First, Unless someone else has joined in, ALL Reproduction Henry's are made by Uberti. There are a number of importers of the Henry under their own name, but they are made by Uberti. The main difference is that some Importer's will buy some that the tolerance levels are better than others, making for a better gun from different importers. I recommend Dixie Gun Works. (No interest in the business, just experience) They, as a rule, seem to have a little higher quality due to tighter tolerences. They also stand behind their products.
Second, forget the 45 LC as a round. Those of us that shoot them in competition have found that the 44-40 Win. is much more user friendly and accurate than the 45 LC. For some reason, it just does not perform. The few that did get a 45 LC to perform in the Henry had to reline the barrels to a different twist and other things to make them shoot tight groups. The 44-40 Win. will shoot well right out of the box.
Factory ammunition is okay but to get peak performance, you will need to hand load your ammunition. Factory ammo is generally set up for Pistols and are .427 in diameter. The Rifles from Uberti seem to need a slightly larger bullet. To get peak performance, 1" groups at 100 yards, you will need a bullet that is .429 in diameter that is semi-hard lead bullet. I use an alloy of 1 lb. wheelweights and one lb. pure lead if I cast them myself. I more often buy the Cowboy action bullets in 240 grain. I use Black powder.
A few things you also need to know for safety sake.
The Henry is manufactured exactly like the original except for the cartridge (the 44 Rimfire Henry is no longer available). The hammer will fall on a cartridge before it is fully in battery. This can result in cartridge cases rupturing and sending brass fragments flying. The only time I have seen this happen is in the rapid fire contests when the shooter was not being careful.
If you hand load, use PISTOL PRIMERS ONLY. The 44-40 WIN and 45 LC are pistol cartridges. As such, the primer pocket is shallower than on the rifle cartridges. Use of rifle primers will result in high primers, primers sticking up above the base of the cartridge. In tube magazines like on the Henry, this can lead to detonation of the the cartridges in magazine tube. Sometimes this is caused by recoil but most often by letting the magazine follower slam down on the cartridges in the magazine tube after loading.
The Henrys are fun guns to shoot. I enjoy mine very much.
If you want to see an awesome display of the Henry in action, drop by the N-SSA range in Winchester VA. during the May or October National competitions. The Henry team(4 man teams) competitions are on Friday Afternoon. The better teams are amazing to watch. The winner, last fall, cleared 32 clay pigeons on a backer in 35.9 seconds. Total number of targets were 74. The total time was 94.5 seconds. The distances were 50 and 100 yards. That is a HIT TARGET every 1.27 seconds. Don't tell the folks in DC as they might declare it a Class III firearm.
Your cost now new is going to be about $1,000.00. This is due more to the difference in the Dollar and Euro than anything else. By shopping around, you can find them cheaper used. But remember what I said about different importers.
I shoot with the N-SSA. I also shoot a Ballard Carbine.
Now I will go back to lurking
.
First, Unless someone else has joined in, ALL Reproduction Henry's are made by Uberti. There are a number of importers of the Henry under their own name, but they are made by Uberti. The main difference is that some Importer's will buy some that the tolerance levels are better than others, making for a better gun from different importers. I recommend Dixie Gun Works. (No interest in the business, just experience) They, as a rule, seem to have a little higher quality due to tighter tolerences. They also stand behind their products.
Second, forget the 45 LC as a round. Those of us that shoot them in competition have found that the 44-40 Win. is much more user friendly and accurate than the 45 LC. For some reason, it just does not perform. The few that did get a 45 LC to perform in the Henry had to reline the barrels to a different twist and other things to make them shoot tight groups. The 44-40 Win. will shoot well right out of the box.
Factory ammunition is okay but to get peak performance, you will need to hand load your ammunition. Factory ammo is generally set up for Pistols and are .427 in diameter. The Rifles from Uberti seem to need a slightly larger bullet. To get peak performance, 1" groups at 100 yards, you will need a bullet that is .429 in diameter that is semi-hard lead bullet. I use an alloy of 1 lb. wheelweights and one lb. pure lead if I cast them myself. I more often buy the Cowboy action bullets in 240 grain. I use Black powder.
A few things you also need to know for safety sake.
The Henry is manufactured exactly like the original except for the cartridge (the 44 Rimfire Henry is no longer available). The hammer will fall on a cartridge before it is fully in battery. This can result in cartridge cases rupturing and sending brass fragments flying. The only time I have seen this happen is in the rapid fire contests when the shooter was not being careful.
If you hand load, use PISTOL PRIMERS ONLY. The 44-40 WIN and 45 LC are pistol cartridges. As such, the primer pocket is shallower than on the rifle cartridges. Use of rifle primers will result in high primers, primers sticking up above the base of the cartridge. In tube magazines like on the Henry, this can lead to detonation of the the cartridges in magazine tube. Sometimes this is caused by recoil but most often by letting the magazine follower slam down on the cartridges in the magazine tube after loading.
The Henrys are fun guns to shoot. I enjoy mine very much.
If you want to see an awesome display of the Henry in action, drop by the N-SSA range in Winchester VA. during the May or October National competitions. The Henry team(4 man teams) competitions are on Friday Afternoon. The better teams are amazing to watch. The winner, last fall, cleared 32 clay pigeons on a backer in 35.9 seconds. Total number of targets were 74. The total time was 94.5 seconds. The distances were 50 and 100 yards. That is a HIT TARGET every 1.27 seconds. Don't tell the folks in DC as they might declare it a Class III firearm.
Your cost now new is going to be about $1,000.00. This is due more to the difference in the Dollar and Euro than anything else. By shopping around, you can find them cheaper used. But remember what I said about different importers.
I shoot with the N-SSA. I also shoot a Ballard Carbine.
Now I will go back to lurking
.Hawkeye78
-
Griff
- Posting leader...
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
- Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!
1st: Fordboy85 and Hawkeye78, Welcome to the Forum!
Hawkeye78 is absolutely correct. Except about the caliber thing IMO. I don't know if the twist has changed, or what? While I don't have a Henry, the twist in the Henry .45Colt a friend owns (sure wish he'd name a reasonalbe price) is the same as the 1-16" (*) in my .45Colt 1873 EMF rifle.
I shoot in Cowboy Action Matches, the main complaint with the .45 Colt is the fouling when using BP instead of smokeless. The .45 Colt brass from most brass manufacturers is thicker than a .44-40; this along with the slight bottleneck .44-40 has, are the two factors that seemingly to keep more of the BP fouling out of the lifter (carrier) area, aiding in keeping the gun from "gumming" up. I have found that the sole use of used brass and keeping my loads above 28grs of FFFg also aids in keeping my fouling to tolerable levels. Case life is like, forever, nor is a little fouling going to keep me from enjoying myself.
Nate may have more experience in looking at the different importers guns to verify or refute this, but IMO, (and as long as I've played this game, I've looked at all the various importers and manufacturers of almost ALL of the guns used in CAS), tolerances for the Uberti rifles are the same regardless of importer, the main differences are the obvious: name on the barrel, the quality/finish of wood and metal finishes. IMO, Cimarron has the nicest finishes along with the most variety (using std blue, fire blue and antiqued, the rest are, again IMO, about the same.
I can only speak for EMF and Dixie, but... you will like their customer service. I have several guns from EMF and purchases from Dixie (usually in store purchases), have been limited to supplies, books, and tools. The only Uberti gun that I had to send back to the importer for work was the EMF 1873 rifle. That was because: this was one of the 1st 5 1873 rifles in .45 Colt imported to the US in 1985. The extractor and groove were cut wrong at the factory for this chambering. It went to EMF for a new extractor the 1st time, then along with my cases to a Uberti gunsmith in NY the 2nd time to have the extractor properly fitted. As I understand it, all subsequent .45 Colt long guns from Uberti have used parts made to the dimensions cut for this rifle. I understand that 3 of other 4 rifles in this 1st shipment have also been repaired thusly, the 4th being a collectors piece and at last check was unaltered. (It's been about 12 or so years since I talked with the owner of EMF on that subject.)
I don't know what loads others would use, but I find excellent accuracy out of my '73 using a 225gr or heavier bullet. My main competition bullet is cast from the RCBS 225-CAV mold, a truncated cone with a lubed & sized weight of 226grs of hardcast. I tried using my pistol load of 185gr WFN hardcast, but found that bullets tumbled before 50yards. My two favorite loads, which are well under limits for any Colt SAA (the limit for the togglelink action of the Henry, '66 & '73 actions), consists of the aforementioned bullet, Winchester WLR primers and either 6.5 grs of RedDot or 30grs of FFFg Goex. I use a waxed paper (cut from milk cartons) over-powder wad for the BP loads.
These are iron sighted guns, with excellent accuracy out to 50 yards, (max @ CAS matches) and very good accuracy out to 100 yards. I have shot my rifle in Cowboy Silhouette many years ago before the NRA recognized it, and did quite well. (Don't remember the particulars, it was basically an informal competition at the time.)
An "Iron-Framed" Henry is on my list of "needed guns" and it will be in .45Colt. The Iron Framed Henry is my choice mainly cause it is what it was FIRST produce using, and I have a reluctance to have a brass-framed gun, (purely personal, as is most of the above). I will shoot it using mostly BP, as I ain't skeered of no fouling and anticipate getting the same excellent service and accuracy as I get from my '73.
* 1-16" is the factory twist rate for all Colt revolvers in this caliber.[/i]
Hawkeye78 is absolutely correct. Except about the caliber thing IMO. I don't know if the twist has changed, or what? While I don't have a Henry, the twist in the Henry .45Colt a friend owns (sure wish he'd name a reasonalbe price) is the same as the 1-16" (*) in my .45Colt 1873 EMF rifle.
I shoot in Cowboy Action Matches, the main complaint with the .45 Colt is the fouling when using BP instead of smokeless. The .45 Colt brass from most brass manufacturers is thicker than a .44-40; this along with the slight bottleneck .44-40 has, are the two factors that seemingly to keep more of the BP fouling out of the lifter (carrier) area, aiding in keeping the gun from "gumming" up. I have found that the sole use of used brass and keeping my loads above 28grs of FFFg also aids in keeping my fouling to tolerable levels. Case life is like, forever, nor is a little fouling going to keep me from enjoying myself.
Nate may have more experience in looking at the different importers guns to verify or refute this, but IMO, (and as long as I've played this game, I've looked at all the various importers and manufacturers of almost ALL of the guns used in CAS), tolerances for the Uberti rifles are the same regardless of importer, the main differences are the obvious: name on the barrel, the quality/finish of wood and metal finishes. IMO, Cimarron has the nicest finishes along with the most variety (using std blue, fire blue and antiqued, the rest are, again IMO, about the same.
I can only speak for EMF and Dixie, but... you will like their customer service. I have several guns from EMF and purchases from Dixie (usually in store purchases), have been limited to supplies, books, and tools. The only Uberti gun that I had to send back to the importer for work was the EMF 1873 rifle. That was because: this was one of the 1st 5 1873 rifles in .45 Colt imported to the US in 1985. The extractor and groove were cut wrong at the factory for this chambering. It went to EMF for a new extractor the 1st time, then along with my cases to a Uberti gunsmith in NY the 2nd time to have the extractor properly fitted. As I understand it, all subsequent .45 Colt long guns from Uberti have used parts made to the dimensions cut for this rifle. I understand that 3 of other 4 rifles in this 1st shipment have also been repaired thusly, the 4th being a collectors piece and at last check was unaltered. (It's been about 12 or so years since I talked with the owner of EMF on that subject.)
I don't know what loads others would use, but I find excellent accuracy out of my '73 using a 225gr or heavier bullet. My main competition bullet is cast from the RCBS 225-CAV mold, a truncated cone with a lubed & sized weight of 226grs of hardcast. I tried using my pistol load of 185gr WFN hardcast, but found that bullets tumbled before 50yards. My two favorite loads, which are well under limits for any Colt SAA (the limit for the togglelink action of the Henry, '66 & '73 actions), consists of the aforementioned bullet, Winchester WLR primers and either 6.5 grs of RedDot or 30grs of FFFg Goex. I use a waxed paper (cut from milk cartons) over-powder wad for the BP loads.
These are iron sighted guns, with excellent accuracy out to 50 yards, (max @ CAS matches) and very good accuracy out to 100 yards. I have shot my rifle in Cowboy Silhouette many years ago before the NRA recognized it, and did quite well. (Don't remember the particulars, it was basically an informal competition at the time.)
An "Iron-Framed" Henry is on my list of "needed guns" and it will be in .45Colt. The Iron Framed Henry is my choice mainly cause it is what it was FIRST produce using, and I have a reluctance to have a brass-framed gun, (purely personal, as is most of the above). I will shoot it using mostly BP, as I ain't skeered of no fouling and anticipate getting the same excellent service and accuracy as I get from my '73.
* 1-16" is the factory twist rate for all Colt revolvers in this caliber.[/i]
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Agree to disagree
Griff,
The fouling problem is an easy fix. Just use a proper BP lube from SPG or MCM. Fouling should not be a problem. Also, clean and wipe between events so the fouling that is there doesn't have time to set up and harden. I have fired 30 plus rounds without any problem as long as the fouling is not given time to set up and harden.
We will have to agree to disagree about the calibers performance. We are shooting different era weapons, though there is quite a bit of cross-over. I have no experience with the repro 73's or 45 pistols. I just own and shoot a few of the originals. I feel very comfortable saying that the 44-40 Win. is better out of the box with the repros than the 45 LC, particularly in the 1860 Henry rifle. This is based on personal experience and conversations with extremely talented shooters who have tried both cartidges in the 1860 Henry rifle made by Uberti.
I think we may be comparing apples and oranges. The distances shot and the size and nature of the targets are very different between your sport and mine. What might be acceptable in one, is not acceptable in the other. The targets I saw at a CAS shoot I attended were larger than those used in the N-SSA and were much closer.
The N-SSA shoots at 50 and 100 yard distances. There are very few 45 LC shooters in the N-SSA. Those that are, are not the top shooters, as a rule, unless they have done major adaptations to their weapons and loads. N-SSA shoot BP only, so I can't speak for those that shoot smokeless powder other than to listen to those that tried to make them group tight. They indicate a heavy bullet of 300 grains will get decent groups with smokeless but not as good as the 44-40 Win. with a 240 grain bullet over BP.
The final thing that tells me the difference is that on our board, it is difficult to sell a used 45 LC where the 44-40 Win will usually only last 2-3 days at most. They also sell the 45 LC to non-skirmishers more than skirmishers. The skirmishers that prefer the 45 LC are usually based on the easier hand loading characteristics of the 45 LC cartridge vs. 44-40 Win.
These weapons have been shot in the N-SSA for about 25-30 years. We have a very large number of Gunsmiths, Machinists and Engineers in our group. They measure everything. While the importers will tell you the weapons are the same, in reality, several importers don't import weapons of consistent specs. One example I can speak of personally is a series of EMF and Cabela's purchased Henrys. One member of our team bought EMF Henry. At the breech, the diameter was .427. At the muzzle, it was .433. No way without a re-line, would this gun have ever grouped. Next was .432 at the breech and .423 at the muzzle. Extremely bad leading and fouling problems. The next one was wider in the center of the barrel than at the muzzle and breech. The bullet actually fell out of the rifling for about 3 inches of the barrel. The bullets tumbled going down range. Finally, they just sent him his money back. The same thing happened with a series of Henry's purchased through Cabelas by some friends.
Both were co-operative in trying to correct the issue but what they received from Uberti was just not up to specs. No complaints at all with the customer service at either.
Other importers have had similar type problems over the years with other importers. Dixie did also. They sent a whole lot back after receiving numerous complaints. Certain importers worry more about the "Look" than the accuracy the weapon produces.
This is what I learned from members of the US International MuzzleLoader Team. The Italian, German and other Manufacturers sell several different grades of firearms. They check the specs and put them in the various grades and charge accordingly. Most of the best never leave Europe. They look at the US market as mostly the Re-enactor market, and more recently, SASS and CAS. The N-SSA is only a minor part of their market.
The Re-enactors are not real concerned about how accurate a weapon is as long as it looks right and goes bang when they need it to. As such, the tolerances are much looser for these guns. The distances that the CAS and SASS shoot are relatively short. So the tolerances do not have to be as tight as some one on a the US National Team or N-SSA might need to perform well at their level of competition.
It is only the last 10 years or so that Pieta has been importing a "Shooter's Revolver" in the 1858 Remington. This is not their top of the line revolver though. It sells here for $600-700.00 versus the typical 1858 that sells new for $250.00 or so.
For the quality weapons they produce, you will have to pay a premium to get them, if you can find someone with a license to import them. Most just don't bother to ship them over here because a small market of shooters is just not worth the effort when they have thousands of European shooters willing to pay the price of $1000.00 and up. (This is due to the gun laws over there that make owning reproduction antiques easier to obtain and use than the more modern weapons.) The best cap and ball revolvers are Italian made parts with German steel that are shipped to Hege in Germany. They are put together by German gunsmiths and sell for $2-3000.00.
Americans are used to paying $100.00 to $300.00 from the same model from the same manufacturer and they don't understand the difference in quality and grade of the weapon.
It is my hope that the growth of the SASS/CAS will help improve the overall quality of the imported fireams coming into this country. It has already lead to the expansion of the variety of firearms models being reproduced and imported. It is also leading to American companies to re-introduce models they made years ago. They are costly, but quality has been good.
I hope this helps some folks and I have enjoyed the debate.
The fouling problem is an easy fix. Just use a proper BP lube from SPG or MCM. Fouling should not be a problem. Also, clean and wipe between events so the fouling that is there doesn't have time to set up and harden. I have fired 30 plus rounds without any problem as long as the fouling is not given time to set up and harden.
We will have to agree to disagree about the calibers performance. We are shooting different era weapons, though there is quite a bit of cross-over. I have no experience with the repro 73's or 45 pistols. I just own and shoot a few of the originals. I feel very comfortable saying that the 44-40 Win. is better out of the box with the repros than the 45 LC, particularly in the 1860 Henry rifle. This is based on personal experience and conversations with extremely talented shooters who have tried both cartidges in the 1860 Henry rifle made by Uberti.
I think we may be comparing apples and oranges. The distances shot and the size and nature of the targets are very different between your sport and mine. What might be acceptable in one, is not acceptable in the other. The targets I saw at a CAS shoot I attended were larger than those used in the N-SSA and were much closer.
The N-SSA shoots at 50 and 100 yard distances. There are very few 45 LC shooters in the N-SSA. Those that are, are not the top shooters, as a rule, unless they have done major adaptations to their weapons and loads. N-SSA shoot BP only, so I can't speak for those that shoot smokeless powder other than to listen to those that tried to make them group tight. They indicate a heavy bullet of 300 grains will get decent groups with smokeless but not as good as the 44-40 Win. with a 240 grain bullet over BP.
The final thing that tells me the difference is that on our board, it is difficult to sell a used 45 LC where the 44-40 Win will usually only last 2-3 days at most. They also sell the 45 LC to non-skirmishers more than skirmishers. The skirmishers that prefer the 45 LC are usually based on the easier hand loading characteristics of the 45 LC cartridge vs. 44-40 Win.
These weapons have been shot in the N-SSA for about 25-30 years. We have a very large number of Gunsmiths, Machinists and Engineers in our group. They measure everything. While the importers will tell you the weapons are the same, in reality, several importers don't import weapons of consistent specs. One example I can speak of personally is a series of EMF and Cabela's purchased Henrys. One member of our team bought EMF Henry. At the breech, the diameter was .427. At the muzzle, it was .433. No way without a re-line, would this gun have ever grouped. Next was .432 at the breech and .423 at the muzzle. Extremely bad leading and fouling problems. The next one was wider in the center of the barrel than at the muzzle and breech. The bullet actually fell out of the rifling for about 3 inches of the barrel. The bullets tumbled going down range. Finally, they just sent him his money back. The same thing happened with a series of Henry's purchased through Cabelas by some friends.
Both were co-operative in trying to correct the issue but what they received from Uberti was just not up to specs. No complaints at all with the customer service at either.
Other importers have had similar type problems over the years with other importers. Dixie did also. They sent a whole lot back after receiving numerous complaints. Certain importers worry more about the "Look" than the accuracy the weapon produces.
This is what I learned from members of the US International MuzzleLoader Team. The Italian, German and other Manufacturers sell several different grades of firearms. They check the specs and put them in the various grades and charge accordingly. Most of the best never leave Europe. They look at the US market as mostly the Re-enactor market, and more recently, SASS and CAS. The N-SSA is only a minor part of their market.
The Re-enactors are not real concerned about how accurate a weapon is as long as it looks right and goes bang when they need it to. As such, the tolerances are much looser for these guns. The distances that the CAS and SASS shoot are relatively short. So the tolerances do not have to be as tight as some one on a the US National Team or N-SSA might need to perform well at their level of competition.
It is only the last 10 years or so that Pieta has been importing a "Shooter's Revolver" in the 1858 Remington. This is not their top of the line revolver though. It sells here for $600-700.00 versus the typical 1858 that sells new for $250.00 or so.
For the quality weapons they produce, you will have to pay a premium to get them, if you can find someone with a license to import them. Most just don't bother to ship them over here because a small market of shooters is just not worth the effort when they have thousands of European shooters willing to pay the price of $1000.00 and up. (This is due to the gun laws over there that make owning reproduction antiques easier to obtain and use than the more modern weapons.) The best cap and ball revolvers are Italian made parts with German steel that are shipped to Hege in Germany. They are put together by German gunsmiths and sell for $2-3000.00.
Americans are used to paying $100.00 to $300.00 from the same model from the same manufacturer and they don't understand the difference in quality and grade of the weapon.
It is my hope that the growth of the SASS/CAS will help improve the overall quality of the imported fireams coming into this country. It has already lead to the expansion of the variety of firearms models being reproduced and imported. It is also leading to American companies to re-introduce models they made years ago. They are costly, but quality has been good.
I hope this helps some folks and I have enjoyed the debate.
Hawkeye78
-
Griff
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 20864
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
- Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!
Likewise, a good debate is good for both parties. Your experience with the Henry's dimensions is disconcerting to say the least. I'll be checking a little more carefully before buying. And if you like smaller targets at longer ranges, you should really check out the OWSA match at Raton, NM. They will have pistol targets out to 35-50 yards, and most rifle targets are at 35-75 yards, vs those generally in use at SASS sanctioned events. Plus, there are about 35 stages over 4 or 5 days! It's my favorite large match, and the setting is rather nice also!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Targets
Maybe one day when I retire I can head out there to NM.
So you know the targets we shoot in the N-SSA, here are some examples:
50 yards:
Clay pigeons, hanging and on backers
ceramic tiles, 4"x4" down to 1"x1"
8 ounce juicers
2x4 ends
water filled coke cans
small coffee cups
3 inch clay pots
eggs
water filled soda bottles 8 ounce to 20 ounce
100 yards:
6"x 6" ceramic tiles
water filled 1 and 2 liter soda bottles
clay pigeons on backers
The same targets are shot at 25 and 50 yards by smoothbores and revolvers.
Now you see the need for tight group shooting weapons. Here is our web site:
www.n-ssa.org.
Stop by and visit. There is a nice recruiting video also that gives a little idea what a skirmish is like. It also shows some of us shooting our big Guns.
So you know the targets we shoot in the N-SSA, here are some examples:
50 yards:
Clay pigeons, hanging and on backers
ceramic tiles, 4"x4" down to 1"x1"
8 ounce juicers
2x4 ends
water filled coke cans
small coffee cups
3 inch clay pots
eggs
water filled soda bottles 8 ounce to 20 ounce
100 yards:
6"x 6" ceramic tiles
water filled 1 and 2 liter soda bottles
clay pigeons on backers
The same targets are shot at 25 and 50 yards by smoothbores and revolvers.
Now you see the need for tight group shooting weapons.
Here is our web site: www.n-ssa.org.
Stop by and visit. There is a nice recruiting video also that gives a little idea what a skirmish is like. It also shows some of us shooting our big Guns.
Hawkeye78
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I hope that we answered Fordboy85's question. If you need anymore information on the 1860 Henry, I'll be happy to answer. I am not an expert but have access to people that are.
Hawkeye78
"I was also looking at Uberti, but they don't seem to offer it in a stainless(white) barrel."
I believe the "in the white" barrel is regular carbon steel, just not blued. In case you were expecting it was stainless and would be more corrosion resistant than a blued gun, it would be less corrosion resistant than a blued gun.
I believe the "in the white" barrel is regular carbon steel, just not blued. In case you were expecting it was stainless and would be more corrosion resistant than a blued gun, it would be less corrosion resistant than a blued gun.
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Nate Kiowa Jones
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Hawkeye78 wrote:...................................... The main difference is that some Importer's will buy some that the tolerance levels are better than others, making for a better gun from different importers. I recommend Dixie Gun Works. .................................
Over the last 15 years or so I've worked on a ton of them. Other than external cosmetics the uberti's are all pretty much the same inside. All the importers get really nice tight guns along with some not so nice.Griff wrote:..........................................................................I've looked at all the various importers and manufacturers of almost ALL of the guns used in CAS), tolerances for the Uberti rifles are the same regardless of importer, the main differences are the obvious: name on the barrel, the quality/finish of wood and metal finishes. IMO, Cimarron has the nicest finishes along with the most variety (using std blue, fire blue and antiqued, the rest are, again IMO, about the same.....................................................................
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I do warranty work for EMF. They tell me the same thing. Because Uberti is the only maker, the importers take what they can get, good or bad. EMF tells me they don't even know what Uberti is going to send them until they get them in.
I think what they are seeing is the quality of the various makes. Not the varying quality of a maker. For example the guns that come from David Davide Pedersoli are probably the very best Italian guns. Aldo Uberti and the newer Pietta guns being the next most consistant and on down the line to the Armi sport/Chiappa and Armi San Marco/Chaparrel guns.Hawkeye78 wrote:............................................................................................................This is what I learned from members of the US International MuzzleLoader Team. The Italian, German and other Manufacturers sell several different grades of firearms. They check the specs and put them in the various grades and charge accordingly. Most of the best never leave Europe. They look at the US market as mostly the Re-enactor market, and more recently, SASS and CAS. The N-SSA is only a minor part of their market. ...........................................
I do know that on occassion they all have guns that are sold at special reduced rates. Some for QC issues and some for overstock, but the majority of their production is just the standard lineup.
I guess what I'm saying is they don't deliberately make guns of lesser quality but when they do they don't destroy them and start over. They sell those off at reduced prices. The majority of these guns are cosmetically flawed. The mechanically flawed guns unless they are obviously broke, don't always get discovered and generally show up in the standard line only to be discovered by the new owner that shoots them enough for the flaws to show. As a warranty station I see this a lot.
That is correct. The only stainless guns I know of are the Uberti SAA's and the EMF Great Western II's made by Pietta and of course some modern In-line ML's in stainless.Malamute wrote:"I was also looking at Uberti, but they don't seem to offer it in a stainless(white) barrel."
I believe the "in the white" barrel is regular carbon steel, just not blued. In case you were expecting it was stainless and would be more corrosion resistant than a blued gun, it would be less corrosion resistant than a blued gun.
Steve Young aka Nate Kiowa Jones Sass# 6765
Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550
http://www.stevesgunz.com
Email; steve@stevesgunz.com
Tel: 512-564-1015
Steve's Guns aka "Rossi 92 Specialists"
205 Antler lane
Lampasas, Texas 76550
http://www.stevesgunz.com
Email; steve@stevesgunz.com
Tel: 512-564-1015
Quality
I agree with your rankings on the "quality" of the Italian MFGs. Still,to make a competitive competition weapon, ALL require quite a bit of work. Trigger and lock work being the principal thing. They are all so rough and metal so soft that they must be hardened for continuous use.
With the guns I have seen, The problem has been flaws in the barrel rifling. The linkage and feed problems are usually easy fixes. For short distances, these don't show up. For blanks, it doesn't show. But when you start stretching the distance out, it jumps out at you.
Again, EMF has always been very good about service and exchange. Sometimes, they have just gotten bad products from Uberti. The reason I recommend Dixie is that fewer need of returns in personal experience. Also, when Dixie had several Henry's returned, they discovered they were all from the same lot. They packed up everything in stock from that lot and shipped them back and told Uberti about the problem. (I was told this by one of the Kirklands at Dixie when I went with a teammate to look for one and they had none in stock.) Uberti replaced them with weapons from a different lot. Required another trip for my teammate, but he had a good shooter after a little polishing work on the internals.
Since then, no more problems from Dixie Uberti's have been seen to my knowledge. (They had some trouble with Smiths also. Bad Barrels. They sold these at a heavy discount at the MFG. request and for Re-Enactment Only.Some Skirmishers(me too!) bought them, re-lined them and had great shooters for about half price!) Actually, I now recommend folks start with a used gun, skip getting a new gun. The work is usually done already and then go directly to a customized weapon.
My source of the information about the Italian Mfg. talked directly with the folks at Uberti and Pietta. They use gauges to inspect the weapons before they are put together. Those parts with the tightest tolerence are seperated out and put together for a very high quality firearm. These are reserved for the international teams, special customers or others properly connected to the owners. This is about 10 to 15 per cent of the guns produced. The next 25% of quality are kept for European markets. The bottom 60% is pretty much as you say, pot luck and is what they principally export.
I know to some degree this goes on here as well with the US MFG "Custom Shops" and such. Those are made with a great deal of care from the top quality parts. You pay for them also.
With the guns I have seen, The problem has been flaws in the barrel rifling. The linkage and feed problems are usually easy fixes. For short distances, these don't show up. For blanks, it doesn't show. But when you start stretching the distance out, it jumps out at you.
Again, EMF has always been very good about service and exchange. Sometimes, they have just gotten bad products from Uberti. The reason I recommend Dixie is that fewer need of returns in personal experience. Also, when Dixie had several Henry's returned, they discovered they were all from the same lot. They packed up everything in stock from that lot and shipped them back and told Uberti about the problem. (I was told this by one of the Kirklands at Dixie when I went with a teammate to look for one and they had none in stock.) Uberti replaced them with weapons from a different lot. Required another trip for my teammate, but he had a good shooter after a little polishing work on the internals.
Since then, no more problems from Dixie Uberti's have been seen to my knowledge. (They had some trouble with Smiths also. Bad Barrels. They sold these at a heavy discount at the MFG. request and for Re-Enactment Only.Some Skirmishers(me too!) bought them, re-lined them and had great shooters for about half price!) Actually, I now recommend folks start with a used gun, skip getting a new gun. The work is usually done already and then go directly to a customized weapon.
I agree with this completely. The only thing I would say is that my source has been to the factory and talked with several. They do make various grades and best don't get sent here.I guess what I'm saying is they don't deliberately make guns of lesser quality but when they do they don't destroy them and start over. They sell those off at reduced prices. The majority of these guns are cosmetically flawed. The mechanically flawed guns unless they are obviously broke, don't always get discovered and generally show up in the standard line only to be discovered by the new owner that shoots them enough for the flaws to show. As a warranty station I see this a lot.
My source of the information about the Italian Mfg. talked directly with the folks at Uberti and Pietta. They use gauges to inspect the weapons before they are put together. Those parts with the tightest tolerence are seperated out and put together for a very high quality firearm. These are reserved for the international teams, special customers or others properly connected to the owners. This is about 10 to 15 per cent of the guns produced. The next 25% of quality are kept for European markets. The bottom 60% is pretty much as you say, pot luck and is what they principally export.
I know to some degree this goes on here as well with the US MFG "Custom Shops" and such. Those are made with a great deal of care from the top quality parts. You pay for them also.
Hawkeye78
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mescalero1
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