Enjoy...

[colo native]

http://www.pinoncanyon.com

Just about where I grew up

[edwardyoung]

www.pinoncanyon.com

[colo native]

thankx for the link.. ML

[edwardyoung]

De nada. Just noticed the space between the dot and the com.

[C. Cash]

I was stationed at Ft. Carson in the mid/late 80's, and of course Pinion Canyon was one of our main sites for training. It seems a shame what the Army is doing here. I don't know why they would really need more space than they already have at Carson and Pinion Canyon. NTC and Yakima provide large tracts of land for training as well.

[major]

After viewing that website makes me sad to think the gov. is going to distroy more land for live fire ranges. I grew up in a place that had live fire and tank training near by it was very sickining what that have done to the land. Don't get me wrong I do believe in the military but they to some extent should be held accountable to the same standards that they hold us regarding distruction of our enviroment.

[CEMENTHEAD]

I too was stationed at Ft Carson from '89-'92. We trained at Pinion Canyon twice before the call up to Desert Shield/Storm. I remember we weren't allowed to move any vehicles or equipment when it rained because of the damage to the manuever area. I'm kinda glad it rained off and on for 16 days in '89 and we moved very little in that 20 day FTX. The place was/is beautiful, and I agree that they have more land than what they need in that area. They are just looking for a cheaper/closer training area IMO. They should stay with downrange Carson, NTC, and White Sands. What a shame. I hope the land owners don't give up. Thanks, Tom

[Blaine]

The more and harder you train in the states, the less you bleed overseas.......Suck it up Greeners

[C. Cash]

The more and harder you train in the states, the less you bleed overseas.......Suck it up Greeners

I think it is more about the Farmers and Ranchers who are being forced off though. They are the backbone of this country, but are treated like second class citizens. Your sure right about the training aspect for sure.

[mescalero1]

They should leave that place alone, the army has white sands & McGregor range in N.M., that is a lot of land.
Even though it is N.M. , my home, it not as nice as that place, don't hose it up!

[Blaine]

They should leave that place alone, the army has white sands & McGregor range in N.M., that is a lot of land.
Even though it is N.M. , my home, it not as nice as that place, don't hose it up!

You just can't load up Armor, etc, and fly it to a training area. It needs to be real, real close. All these NG and Reserve kids need a couple rotations at a training center before heading to the sandbox. Military are the ones being treated like 2nd Class, not the ranchers/farmers that were paid well for their land Sorry, I pretty much don't care what it takes to keep our Military trained and safe. Take a look at the bases and training areas congress has closed over the last 30 years. Even a idiot would have known they would be needed some day again.

[major]

if anyone looks hard enough there can always be found a justifacation in one form or the other looking from either side....... even so the closing of training sites doesn't mean the land goes back to before purchase landscape to my knowledge it usally is held onto by the gov. even if it closed in most cases...

[colo native]

They should leave that place alone, the army has white sands & McGregor range in N.M., that is a lot of land.
Even though it is N.M. , my home, it not as nice as that place, don't hose it up!

You just can't load up Armor, etc, and fly it to a training area. It needs to be real, real close. All these NG and Reserve kids need a couple rotations at a training center before heading to the sandbox. Military are the ones being treated like 2nd Class, not the ranchers/farmers that were paid well for their land Sorry, I pretty much don't care what it takes to keep our Military trained and safe. Take a look at the bases and training areas congress has closed over the last 30 years. Even a idiot would have known they would be needed some day again.

I am all for traning our troups,and God forbid the day we dont,...
BUT if they come and want your property for 2 or 3 cents on the dollar, well I think you may re think what you have just said, If---- aw never mind, I learned never to a------ aw never mind, hope you enjoyed where my kids live, ya get ta see sheep , elk mulies, lope bear lion, ya name it rignt in their back yard...

[Blaine]

They should leave that place alone, the army has white sands & McGregor range in N.M., that is a lot of land.
Even though it is N.M. , my home, it not as nice as that place, don't hose it up!

You just can't load up Armor, etc, and fly it to a training area. It needs to be real, real close. All these NG and Reserve kids need a couple rotations at a training center before heading to the sandbox. Military are the ones being treated like 2nd Class, not the ranchers/farmers that were paid well for their land Sorry, I pretty much don't care what it takes to keep our Military trained and safe. Take a look at the bases and training areas congress has closed over the last 30 years. Even a idiot would have known they would be needed some day again.

I am all for traning our troups,and God forbid the day we dont,...
BUT if they come and want your property for 2 or 3 cents on the dollar, well I think you may re think what you have just said, If---- aw never mind, I learned never to a------ aw never mind, hope you enjoyed where my kids live, ya get ta see sheep , elk mulies, lope bear lion, ya name it rignt in their back yard...

I live across the road from Ft Lewis and while it is large, they have a stellar reputation for wildlife conservation. Yakima Training Area, as well. I can (civilians, too) drive around either, and hunt on either and all the wildlife that was there still is, maybe moreso, because they control who hunts and when they hunt there You will find that the very center of these training areas are the acreage used and the majority acreage on the outside of the training area are, if not pristine, well cared for and teeming with wildlife. I wonder how much of this other lost land was being leased from BLM for pennies a year at taxpayer expense so that ranchers could make a good living?

[mescalero1]

I am not buying it, you want an excersise, load it all up and ship it to the training area, give your transportation companies some excersise as well.

[Blaine]

I am not buying it, you want an excersise, load it all up and ship it to the training area, give your transportation companies some excersise as well.

You should be pleased that so many Democrats agree with you It was not conservatives in favor of closing all the bases and training areas

[Blaine]

This is fairly complete and accurate...you may draw your own conclusions....be sure to scroll towards to bottom to see the recommendation and actions by congress.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... y/brac.htm

[mescalero1]

I was not in favor of closing any base, that is not what I said.
I said give the transportation guys a chance to participate in the excersise.

[Blaine]

I was not in favor of closing any base, that is not what I said.
I said give the transportation guys a chance to participate in the excersise.

I'm not "fighting" with you, we agree more than you think.... It's just not feasable to pack up and move across country very often, if at all in these days of cutbacks.... Yakima and NTC are the only Desert facilities for Armor. Ft Sill and Knox, while armor centers, still book the NTC for realistic training......Those two facilities can accomadate only a fraction of the units that need to train. I'd love to preserve open land for hunting and farming, too......

[major]

Might find this interesting about how much land the gov. owns......but they always need more just like they always need more power

Report on Government-owned Land in U.S. Reveals Surprising Stats -- May 6, 2004 -- California Capitol Hill Bulletin -- Volume 11, Bulletin 15

Based on data provided by the U.S. General Services Administration (GSA), the Republican Study Conference recently issued a report on the amount of land and buildings owned by the federal government. It revealed that "almost three-in-ten acres in the United States are owned by the federal government," with the government sometimes owning more than half of the land in some states. In California, nearly half of land area is owned by the federal government.

Other key findings of the report show, as of September 30, 2003, 29.6% of all land in the U.S. was owned by the federal government, with total acreage of 671,759,297.7. Some of the states with the largest percentage of federal land ownership were:

1.) Nevada: 91.9% 5.) Wyoming: 50.6% 9.) Colorado: 34.9%

2.) Alaska: 66.7% 6.) Arizona: 50.2% 10.) New Mexico: 34.1%

3.) Utah: 66.5% 7.) Oregon: 49.7% 11.) Montana: 31.3%

4.) Idaho: 66.4% 8.) California: 46.9% 12.) Washington: 31.0%

The District of Columbia has only 26.3% of its land owned by the federal government although it was established as the federal city.

The report also detailed the location of federal land by region: West: 55.5%; Alaska and Hawaii: 36.4%; North Central: 2.9%; South Central: 2.9%; South Atlantic and DC: 2.2%; and Northeast: 0.2%. The RSC study also points out that only 2.4% of federal land is used for military purposes.

For buildings owned by the federal government, as of September 30, 2003 the RSC reported:

-Buildings owned in U.S. by the federal government - 432,791

-Number of square feet of office space within owned buildings - 3.03 billion

-Number of buildings leased by the federal government - 42,246

-Number of square feet of office space in leased buildings - 333.8 million

The report found that about one-fifth of the buildings owned and leased by the government are used for housing.

The General Services Administration published the data entitled "Overview of the United States Government: Federal Real Property Profile as of September 30, 2003." For more information about the article, please visit http://www.gsa.gov .

[Blaine]

Major, that's true, but a large amount of that listed land is being leased by Gas and Oil companies, and ranchers for pennies an acre a year......BLM land is available for sale, on a limited basis, at market value.

[AJMD429]

Sad the feds want to take it over.

The reality is if there is nice stuff, Liberals want it, and don't want to work for it, because they believe Socialism entitles them to it, because they know better how to use it than you would. Using the legitimate concept of 'protecting the environment' they take it to the extreme of seizing property they want to use for their hikes and recreation, but are too cheap to buy for themselves or through a Nature Conservancy organization.

[major]

I have personaly leased land from BLM and it's not pennies on the dollar anymore, hasn't been that way in years. all BLM land goes by the fair market lease value now, it went to that system the year after I leased my first piece of land from them....when I moved and quit leaseing land for cattle out west it was due to the unability to make a profit due the cost of the leases.... I'm not against the military training or anything of that nature in anyway, but when the gov. owns 30% of "ALL" the land in the US maybe we all need to stop for a moment and look at the fact when and if it ever will be enough. I think we all can agree that there is other land that the gov. already owns that would suffice for it's needs without having bled the taxpayers further.......In my opinion the gov. is just like stocks when you are the majority shareholder by owning 51% of something you can control it completely ....what if we get to the point that us as a voting public is on the 49% of things then our vote will no longer be needed for anything....Just a thought, when do we as a voting public draw a line in the sand and say enough?

[colo native]

BlaineG
I would not recoment that you take a vacation to Kim, Higbee, Las Animas, Trinidad, or La Junta with that kind of attitude.
Its true a lot of what you say about army posts, I spent a lota time at Ft Carson, between 1956 and 1964, even remember a place called Cotton wood Junction in the middle of the training feld.
They treated the land with some respect, but the Pinion canyon is not the same type of land.
It has a lot of indian ruins, spanish armor has been found there, my soninlaw just found more dianosur (sp) tracks. In this area it takes 20 acres for a cow and calf to feed, and thats on a good year.
I dont know just how much is school land but not as much as you think..
I didnt post this to cause anyone to get their pants in a wad, just to look at the wild country..nuff said..

[Blaine]

I would not recoment that you take a vacation to Kim, Higbee, Las Animas, Trinidad, or La Junta with that kind of attitude.

Yeah, I get that alot..... Thanks for the warning... I'll forward my vacation itinerary for the next few years Be Glad to discuss it with ya