30-30 190 gr, Buffalo Bore ammo

[skinnygun]

What is the advantage of the 30-30 190 gr, Buffalo Bore round over the 170 gr. round , range or killing power?

[Terry Murbach]

PENETRATION....

[Modoc ED]

I've always scoffed at people calling the .30-30 a "short range" 100 yard only round but I've got to say that I'd think a .30-30 round loaded with a 190gr bullet would indeed make it a "short range" round. That said, "Murbach" is probably correct -- penetration and then add some shock on top of that.

[Rusty]

Someone posted a while back about pulling 190 grain .30-40 bullets to load in a .30-30 to obtain greater accuracy as well.

[Terry Murbach]

Someone posted a while back about pulling 190 grain .30-40 bullets to load in a .30-30 to obtain greater accuracy as well.

I THINK THEY WERE REFERRING TO 190gr 303 SAVAGE BULLETS.

[Nath]

Someone posted a while back about pulling 190 grain .30-40 bullets to load in a .30-30 to obtain greater accuracy as well.

I THINK THEY WERE REFERRING TO 190gr 303 SAVAGE BULLETS.

I remember an article from Sam Fadala on that very practice and getting very good results. Bet they are pleasant to shoot and will plough on and on instead of trying to turn them selves inside out.

Nath.

[C. Cash]

Does John Kort aka Jack Christian still post here? He has done some serious long range work with that bullet weight in the 30/30, though he uses Cast.

[Mike Rintoul]

Here's a quick lesson in ballistics - You need to use the Greenhill Formula to determine the proper rifling twist rate for the bullet. (the Greenhill Formula is available on the internet). If your bullet is outside the specs for your barrel is will YAW. The yawing is essentially a spiral flight, the back of the bullet is trying to overtake the front. When a bullet that is yawing strikes something ( an animal) the force allows the back of the bullet to swing, veering off course and essentially LIMITING penetration. There is a point in the bullet flight where it "goes to sleep" - the point in which it flies true (the back stopped trying to overtake the front). If your bullet strikes at the range in which it already went to sleep, the penetration is straight line compared to earlier in its flight when it was yawing. A perfect example of this is the 375 H&H with 300 grain bullets. Plug this into the Greenhill Formula and you will see the twist rate is 1:15. So how come most 375 barrels are 1:12? This is why the 300 gr 375 at very close range does not penetrate well - it is yawing. The solution is to get a 1:15" twist barrel OR use a 350 or 380gr bullet that is proper for the twist rate and does not yaw.

So, without any specific comments about the 190 gr in 30-30, I suggest you make sure it complimentary to your equipment and your purpose. This can be applied to any caliber/weight but especially those outside of "standard weights".

Thank you to 86er and Dr. Kevin Robertson for discussing this at length with me and providing the illustations.

[Nath]

So if it groups with neat little 30cal holes we can hazard a guess it's stable, yes?

The Sam Fadala article I mentioned I remember there being no worries in that reguard and he was shooting out of a Win94 with a 26" barrel, were all 94 30/30 one turn in 12"?

Nath.

[86er]

The 190's need a 1:14" twist to properly stabilize. I don't think this effects accuracy that much, the bullet can't be yawing any more than it's own diameter twice over. So, it couldn't be yawing more than a .716 circumference. The front of the bullet remains more or less on course, just the back is pulling from side to side. Think of a TOP. A top will still spin on its tip even when it starts yawing. At some point it "goes to sleep" and begins to spin perfectly. The front is more or less on the same spot throughout these actions. What yawing does effect exponentially is penetration, because if the front hits resistance, the back can now easily overcome the straight path and pull the bullet off course. I think Mike Rintoul was right on with this one - especially the 375 H&H example. Yawing is more prevelent at shorter ranges because the bullet did not calm down yet. BTW - here is a link to a Greenhill Formual Calculator

http://www.tanksrifleshop.com/twistcalc.htm

[Old Ironsights]

If you need 180+ gr bullets you need to Upgrade to a .357...

[Nath]

I'm confused now.
I allways thought that the longer the bullet for cal needs a faster twist and or too much spin on the lighter/shorter bullets will over stablise them.
My example would be a patched ball only needing say 1:60" but a conical wanting something in the order of 1:40".
Another example being old 22Hornets with 1:16" not shooting above 45grns very well but do with a 1:14" barrel.

In my Speer manual they list data for a 300Savage with a 1:12" chucking a 200grn with vels down on some load combos to that of what the 30/30 would be doing.

I have seen failed bullets that have bent like bananas and not penertrated on large critters (in journals).

I sure would like to see how this pans out.

Nath.

[86er]

A lot of those bent bullets you've seen are a product of yawing. You need to use the Greenhill Formula which requires you to know the exact length of the bullet in tenths of an inch (sorry, the USA has not gone metric yet). I've seen high speed video where four fiber optic lines are stretched out 200 yards forming a diamond shape. The lines are spaced out about four inches from one another. The lines are lit up purple. The bullet is fired right down the middle of the triangle. The high speed video shows that the bullet is closer to one line than others and further on it is closer to another line. You can also see the back of the bullet is swayed (when yawing is actually occurring). At some point the bullet starts to fly true within the lines. I was present when a buffalo was hit with a 300gr 375 bullet from about 9 yards. It looked like the bullet keyholed. Upon firing into paper at 5-50 yards in 5 yards steps the holes were perfectly round. What happened on the buffalo was just as Nath pointed out, "bullets bent like bananas" due to the yawing. The front hit an stopped abruptly allowing the *ss end of the bullet to swing around to the side and keyhole. This has been proven time and again by PH's on big African game. It is not something to obsess over, but you should match bullet weight to your rifling twist for the most accuracy and close range penetration.

I just tried this little exercise: Take a straw with the bendable end and stick a push pin (point out) into the long end. Squish down the accordian part and make it as straight as you can. Throw it towards a cork-board. It sticks. Take the same straw and pull the accordian part out and make it slightly cock-eyed. Throw it at the corkboard. It sticks for a brief second but then pulls itself out and digs out a tiny piece of cork. Watch the flight, the extended, cock-eyed straw yaws in flight. That's the same type of flight as a bullet that is not ideally stabilized.

[tman]

so . what are u guys recommending? forget the 190's in my trapper for bear, and stick with the 170 corelocks?

[Modoc ED]

so . what are u guys recommending? forget the 190's in my trapper for bear, and stick with the 170 corelocks?

If that's a black bear, the 170 in a .30-30 is plenty. There was a time in American when a 170 in a .30-30 was considered plenty for any game in the lower 48 and Alaska.

[Rusty]

I've never heard of the Greenhill formula until now. I've always thought of accuracy in bullets comes from the proper RPM of the bullet it's self. Just trying to get it through my think head you understand.

But then it could be that accuracy impact ballistics might be two different things as well????? Now I'm thoroughly confused.

[Modoc ED]

The Greenhill Formula Calculator considers only caliber, bullet length, and velocity to determine barrel twist. It does not consider bullet weight. You can fiddle with the bullet length within a specific velocity range without considering bullet weight. Therefore, it seems to me that bullet weight is not a consideration as to bullet flight -- it is bullet length. Now you might say that as a bullet of a certain diameter gets longer it must gain weight BUT that ain't so Kimo Sabe. Put a 150gr Barnes TSX .308 diameter bullet alongside a 150gr Remington Core-Lokt .308 Diameter bullet and the Barnes bullet is much longer than the Remington bullet is. Does that mean that that extra length in the Barnes bullet will make it Yaw. Nawwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

As for that 190gr bullet in a .30-30 it just isn't needed but if someone is determined to use it, go for it. You never know how a bullet will perform in a rifle unless you shoot it. Formulas are fine but they are not a substitute for hands-on use. One thing I've always done when approaching a new round is to look and see how that round was initially desiged to be used (weight, velocity, etc.) when it was designed for a particular rifle and then go from there.

[86er]

This isn't about accuracy it is about stability and its effect on penetration. Use the heaviest bullet that is complimentary to your barrel twist when close range penetration is important. Too light - yawing, too heavy - yawing. Use the formual to draw your own conclusion. There are quite a number of 170 grain 30-30 loads that have proven to provide very good performance on bears up to 350 lbs.

Here's a visual example of yawing:

[1886]

PENETRATION....

Indeed! 1886.

[O.S.O.K.]

If you want to find out for sure, you can get some and test them. Shoot them at 100 yards on paper targets. If they are yawing, you will see it on the target - oblong holes. If they are stabalized, they will all be nice round holes.

[JimT]

190 gr. Bullets in my Model 94 Winchester 30-30

At 50 yards


At 110 yards


They show no signs of yawing. I have used these out to 1200 yards with good success.

[O.S.O.K.]

Holes do look round and close together

[BigSky56]

Checking my older manuals The 303 savage lists factory loads in 180 (2150 fps) & 190 (2100 fps) grain bullets with a 1:12 twist. Lyman lists the 190 gr silver tip ( 2100 fps) 11 /4" 5 shot group@ 50 yds iron sights & 1:12 twist. Back before new age gun writers our ancestor's that hunted thick cover found that heavy for caliber bucked brush better than standard weight bullets. I know several guys that hunt with a 30/06 with 220 gr bullets especially in dark timber, its a elk and moose killer and has taken alot of big bears too. danny

[winchester1886]

Quoting from the 45th edition of the Lyman Reloading Manual.
The 190 grain Winchester Silver Tip bullett (designed for the 303 Savage) proved to be an excellent choice in this caliber. We were able to shoot one and a quater inch 50 yard group with this bullett (5 shots) with a standard 94 Winchester Carbine equiped with iron sights. Hope this helps.

[86er]

Once again, in regard to yawing, it has little to do with accuracy and does not show as oblong holes in the paper. The tip of the bullet remains on its axis throughout. Just the rear of the bullet swings - like a light plane landing. Yawing effects penetration and the bullets straight line after it encounters resistance. The front stops and allows the back to swing way over since the force is abruptly transferred to the back of the bullet. The proper twist rate prevents yawing from the get go.

[O.S.O.K.]

Checking my older manuals The 303 savage lists factory loads in 180 (2150 fps) & 190 (2100 fps) grain bullets with a 1:12 twist. Lyman lists the 190 gr silver tip ( 2100 fps) 11 /4" 5 shot group@ 50 yds iron sights & 1:12 twist. Back before new age gun writers our ancestor's that hunted thick cover found that heavy for caliber bucked brush better than standard weight bullets. I know several guys that hunt with a 30/06 with 220 gr bullets especially in dark timber, its a elk and moose killer and has taken alot of big bears too. danny

The blunt, heavy bullets are good for brush because they expand quickly and penetrate deeply, bringing the game down quickly and minimizing the search for the animal. The "brush busting" thing has been disproven - and tests have shown that light, small caliber,fast moving bullets actually deflect less than the heavy, large caliber, slow moving ones. Though, in practical application, there's no real benefit as the difference is minimal. The thing is - don't shoot unless you have a clear shot, and if you feel you have to shoot the brush before the animal, then make sure its right next to the target and not back close to you....

[Old Ironsights]

Once again, in regard to yawing, it has little to do with accuracy and does not show as oblong holes in the paper. The tip of the bullet remains on its axis throughout. Just the rear of the bullet swings - like a light plane landing. Yawing effects penetration and the bullets straight line after it encounters resistance. The front stops and allows the back to swing way over since the force is abruptly transferred to the back of the bullet. The proper twist rate prevents yawing from the get go.

Yaw = Tumble a-la the 5.56.

Tumble = Accurate & Good for Wounding (combat) but bad for Killing anything big (hunting).

[Modoc ED]

86er -

I noticed that the "Greenhill Formula Calculator" is for copper jacketed lead cast bullets only. So how do you figure the rate of twist for cast bullets?

It appears that the bullets that JimT were firing were cast bullets (RCBS #30-180-FN).

JimT -

What were you shooting at 1200 yards?
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EDIT: I hate ta tell ya but a 170gr .30-30 will do fine on bears well over 350 pounds. Maybe a 190gr .30-30 will do it better but the 170 grainer will do just fine.

[JimT]

The white target on the hill is a steel buffalo silhouette. 1123 yards

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylo ... grange.htm

(added) PS - I went back next year with a "sight extender" and was able to get on target.

[Modoc ED]

Good shooting and good on ya Jim. Thanks for the link. Very informative and of course "cool".

What rear sight/sight extender did you install on yer Winchester?

[JimT]

Good shooting and good on ya Jim. Thanks for the link. Very informative and of course "cool".

What rear sight/sight extender did you install on yer Winchester?

I figured about how much elevation I needed and cut out a peice of thick plastic about 1/2" wide and about 2" long with a hole at the top the size of the aperature in my WFP rear sight. Then I made a larger hole at the bottom of it that would fit the removable aperature. I took the aperature off, slipped the plastic onto it and then fastened it to the rear sight by simply screwing the aperature back in.

That way I had the elevation adjustment of the WFP sight .. but enough height initially so that I was close.

[Modoc ED]

Good shooting and good on ya Jim. Thanks for the link. Very informative and of course "cool".

What rear sight/sight extender did you install on yer Winchester?

I figured about how much elevation I needed and cut out a peice of thick plastic about 1/2" wide and about 2" long with a hole at the top the size of the aperature in my WFP rear sight. Then I made a larger hole at the bottom of it that would fit the removable aperature. I took the aperature off, slipped the plastic onto it and then fastened it to the rear sight by simply screwing the aperature back in.

That way I had the elevation adjustment of the WFP sight .. but enough height initially so that I was close.

Thanks Jim. That's a really neat solution as it requires no outside gunsmith to accomplish. I think I'll try that. Thanks again.

[BigSky56]

OSOK
Mine was a practical application in southeast asia wargames high speed light bullets donot penetrate brush and limbs got rid of the 223 and got a 30 caliber battle rifle it works . When you hunt dark timber there are small limbs green and dead that you cant even see that the bullet will encounter on the way to the game the difference is a heavy bullet will defect a minimal amount and the heavier the less the deflection. If a heavy bullet penetrates a animal better it will do the same to brush and limbs on the way to that animal that been my experience. danny

[Nath]

I bet you didn't kill that buff though Jim! (couldn't resist )

I can see what 86er means, the slug has to be spinning enough to stop the heel wanting to come around the nose as it is penertrating, thats fine.
What I don't get is when in the example of the 375 we were told to go to a slower twist for a 300grn or use a heavier slug but in the 30/30 question we are being told to go to a faster twist, no!?
(I hope this does not make me sound grumpy)

Nath.

[86er]

Nath - plug the numbers in the formula. Yes, the 375, 300 gr says 1:17 (most are made with 1:12). The over 350 gr bullets say 1:13 - This has to do with length of bullet compared to diameter - it has nothing to do with weight. Now the 30-30 - 190 grain = 1:14, 150 gr = 1:17 (much closer to the twist we actually have). Bullets of the same weight but different length can be off be one variant too, ie: 1:20 compared to 1:21. The further off you are from the actual twist, the greater yawing effect and that transfers to veering off course when encountering resistance.

[Nath]

Now hang on a minute there! I have alot of respect for you 86er but I just typed in a bullet length of 1.2" that is considerably longer than my 170grners and it gave me 1 in 11" and all my 30/30s were 1 in 12".

You know what the only way to be sure is send some into some wet news print and recover them, that'll take the guessing out of it and be more fun and make more mess, just what boys were made for

Nath.

[86er]

1.2" = 1:11 (190 gr cast )

.90" = 1:14 (170gr jacketed cup and core)

.852" = 1:16 (150 gr Rem Core Lokt)