OT - Quigley question

[deerwhacker444]

I was just watching the tail end of Quigley on TV and I had a question. The point near the end of the movie where the 2 bad guys line up on Marstens ranch and you see both bad guys double over and then hear the report of the rifle for a 2 in 1 shot. Well, depending on the distance, couldn't that be reversed.

They make reference earlier in the movie, that Quigley is shooting from 3/4 of a mile.

I don't have a Sharps, so I'm making assumptions. Shooting from the mentioned 3/4 mile, the bullets start out at, say, 1300 fps. Once it leaves the muzzle, the bullet will slow down to below the speed of sound pretty quickly. However the speed of sound will remain constant at a little over 1100 fps. It would make sense to me that the sound wave will overtake the bullet somewhere along that 3/4 mile distance.

So, there's my question. In shooting that far, wouldn't the bad guys hear the report of the rifle and then get hit by the flying lead?

Just curious.

[Blaine]

There ya go....messin' up a good story with common sense

[Chuck 100 yd]

Questions like that make my head hurt!

My calculator went on strike!!

[Leverluver]

The average traavel speed over that distance would pretty much be right on the speed of sound so the report and slug would arrive about the same time. And OBTW, a Sharps don't make the sound of an 1886 when you open the lever Only in Hollyweird

[JReed]

The sound would get there first but not by much. Regardless the shot still resulted in 2 dead bad guys.
I couldnt find the BC for a 500 grn 450 british musket lead but used the numbers for a Hornady interlock 500gr .458 @ 1,000 yards starting at 1300fps the bullet would only be going 684.9fps. Now this is more along 45-70 speeds the 45-120 Quigley used would have a MV of around 1400fps or more depending on the grade of powder he used.

Now how is that for stiring the pot.

Here is the link to the calculator I used
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html

[Old Savage]

If there was a nearby cliff the sound could arrive before and after the shot.

[Ysabel Kid]

The Quigley Sharps in the movie was in .45-110 Sharps caliber. The ballistics aren't significantly different than the .45-120 Sharps. Yes, the sound would have arrived first at that distance, but it wouldn't have been nearly as cool that way!

[Don McDowell]

It takes roughly 4 seconds for one of the 45 caliber 500something gr bullets to travel 1000 yds. When the bullet gets there its only doing about 850-900 fps. I don't think the sound lag would be as much as in the movie, but chances are those guys would of been dead before they heard the shot.

[505stevec]

Ya see? all I read was blah blah blah Quigley blah blah blah bullets blah blah blah bad guys blah blah blah.

[Griff]

Of more concern in my view would be the relative distance between the two bad guys and the bullet drop a .45 500 grain projectile has at ¾ mile (1320 yards). At that range the bullet trajectory is greater 45°.

And Quigley D U is my FAVORITE movie so OF COURSE the bad buys got it before the sound arrived! How dare you suggest that it was not factual in its depiction!

[Don McDowell]

Actually Griff that 45 degree stuff isn't quite right. From recovering bullets fired into steel targets, and noticing the bullet splashes, and holes left in soft targets and actually seeing the bullet in flight at those extended ranges. The bullet is traveling a level flight path. So the one bullet whippin thru both fellers in the upper torso is probably pretty close.

[kimwcook]

Actually Griff that 45 degree stuff isn't quite right. From recovering bullets fired into steel targets, and noticing the bullet splashes, and holes left in soft targets and actually seeing the bullet in flight at those extended ranges. The bullet is traveling a level flight path. So the one bullet whippin thru both fellers in the upper torso is probably pretty close.

Huh? Trying to get my head wrapped around that.

[JReed]

Actually Griff that 45 degree stuff isn't quite right. From recovering bullets fired into steel targets, and noticing the bullet splashes, and holes left in soft targets and actually seeing the bullet in flight at those extended ranges. The bullet is traveling a level flight path. So the one bullet whippin thru both fellers in the upper torso is probably pretty close.

Ah Its not the bullets orientation in flight its that the round is falling close to 5" for every forward foot of travel that gives it the angle. One would be shot in the chest the other in the gut. Either way they both died do to instant lead poisoning.

I tried to recreate the temp and guessed at the altitude and humidity for the shot take a look at the time in the table and the drop @ 1100 yards.

Manufacturer: Hornady Description: .458 dia. 500 gr. Round Nose InterBond

Muzzle Velocity: 1400.0 ft/s Chronograph Distance: 10.0 ft

Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Azimuth: 0.00 MOA Elevation: 0.00 MOA
LOS Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 0.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Speed: 0.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg

Temperature: 90.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Relative Humidity: 25.0 % Altitude: 1000 ft

Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No
Corrected Pressure: Yes Target Relative Drops: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No
Calculated Parameters
Elevation: 158.15 MOA Azimuth: 0.00 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.06926 lbs/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1149.4 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 173 yds Maximum PBR Zero: 147 yds
Range at Max Height: 80 yds Energy at PBR: 1476.4 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.341 lbs/in²

Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yds) (in) (moa) (in) (moa) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (moa)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 1406.0 1.223 2194.2 0.000 0.0 ***
100__ 154.6 -147.7-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 1244.7-- 1.083-- 1719.7-- 0.227-- 0.0- 0.0
200__ 288.3 137.6-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 1124.3-- 0.978-- 1403.1-- 0.482-- 0.0- 0.0
300__ 394.5 125.6-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 1039.8-- 0.905-- 1200.2-- 0.760-- 0.0- 0.0
400__ 468.5 111.8-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 976.7-- 0.850-- 1059.0-- 1.058-- 0.0- 0.0
500__ 506.1 96.7-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 925.4-- 0.805-- 950.7-- 1.374-- 0.0- 0.0
600__ 503.2 80.1-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 881.3-- 0.767-- 862.2-- 1.706-- 0.0- 0.0
700__ 455.5 62.1-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 842.1-- 0.733-- 787.2-- 2.054-- 0.0- 0.0
800__ 358.7 42.8-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 806.5-- 0.702-- 722.0-- 2.419-- 0.0- 0.0
900__ 208.5 22.1-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 773.4-- 0.673-- 664.0-- 2.799-- 0.0- 0.0
1000_ -0.0 -0.0-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 742.5-- 0.646-- 612.0-- 3.196-- 0.0- 0.0
1100_ -271.8 -23.6-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 713.6-- 0.621-- 565.2-- 3.609-- 0.0- 0.0
1200_ -612.4 -48.7-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 686.5-- 0.597-- 523.1-- 4.040-- 0.0- 0.0
1300_ -1027.6 -75.5-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 661.0-- 0.575-- 485.0-- 4.488-- 0.0- 0.0
1400_ -1523.6 -103.9-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 636.8-- 0.554-- 450.2-- 4.955-- 0.0- 0.0
1500_ -2107.3 -134.2-- 0.0-- 0.0-- 614.1-- 0.534-- 418.6-- 5.441-- 0.0- 0.0

[Gun Smith]

I'm lost. Bullet angles, fps, time, sound! I just love to see the strike and THEN hear the sound!

[Griff]

Actually Griff that 45 degree stuff isn't quite right. From recovering bullets fired into steel targets, and noticing the bullet splashes, and holes left in soft targets and actually seeing the bullet in flight at those extended ranges. The bullet is traveling a level flight path. So the one bullet whippin thru both fellers in the upper torso is probably pretty close.

Ah Its not the bullets orientation in flight its that the round is falling close to 5" for every forward foot of travel that gives it the angle. One would be shot in the chest the other in the gut. Either way they both died do to instant lead poisoning.

You sure you ain't an Officer? Sounded might edjumicated there, grunt!

I KNEW someone could explain that better'n I did!

[JReed]

Actually Griff that 45 degree stuff isn't quite right. From recovering bullets fired into steel targets, and noticing the bullet splashes, and holes left in soft targets and actually seeing the bullet in flight at those extended ranges. The bullet is traveling a level flight path. So the one bullet whippin thru both fellers in the upper torso is probably pretty close.

Ah Its not the bullets orientation in flight its that the round is falling close to 5" for every forward foot of travel that gives it the angle. One would be shot in the chest the other in the gut. Either way they both died do to instant lead poisoning.

You sure you ain't an Officer? Sounded might edjumicated there, grunt!

I KNEW someone could explain that better'n I did!

Nope I aint no Officer just an Enlisted electronics geek

[Blaine]

Enlisted electronics geek

Sparky!

Anyway, these two Marines decided to go to DisneyLand and when they saw the sign "DisneyLand Left", they turned around and went home.....

[kimwcook]

There he goes with shots over the bow. Blaine, you couldn't stand it could ya?

[Don McDowell]

Well ok this gets a bit more complicated to explain than it actually is to witness.
For the most part when watching a 1000 yd target , those bullets will come into view of the spotting scope somewhere around 850 yds. From there on in its more like watching an airplane on approach to the runway. Many times folks see the bullet strike "behind" the 1000 yd, and think its dropping in "at a steep angle" actually the shot went low and if you can get them convinced to add a bit of elevation to the sight they'll start getting hits.
A couple of points to ponder here also, most "ballistics" charts don't take into consideration the true angle of the bpcr sights. The front sight true enough might be at .5-75 in above the bore, but the rear sight is going to be much closer to 2-2.25 inches above the bore.
Also when you go to figure bc's etc on the bullets used in "Quigley" you have to figure that bullet was probably more akin to a .440 or .435 diameter bullet patched up to .450 +-,than it does a .458 bullet.
I've watched many a bullet floating into the longrange targets and they are almost always traveling at a level elevation when they get there. If they are coming in steep its because they lost stability, and are spinning out of control somewhat like they are following a circular staircase.
Yes those big slugs gain alot of altitude on the way to targets at 1/2 mile and beyond, but you can generally figure depending on mirage etc, that 15 minutes elevation on the rear site for every hundred yards, past your last know zero is a pretty fair place to start.

[JReed]

Even with the higher BC of a .440 projo it is still acting more like an artillary shell then a 168gr match grade .308 projo even that round has a heck of a balistic ark at that range. The reason you can see it @ the 850 mark is that it has fallen back in to your line of sight and continues to fall until it impacts the burm. It only appears level flight but it is an optical illusion caused by distance wind movement and mirage. If you were able to take slow motion video of its last 25 yards up until it hits the target from a side vantage point the fall of the round would suprise you.
Just out of curiosity what power is your spotting scope and its field of view @ 1000 yards.

[Don McDowell]

Well this is probably gonna turn you upside down, but experience is just what it is.......
Actually many times the bullets actually look like they are going to strike well short of the target before they do hit it.
So no disrespect intended, but from what my eyes have seen on many occasions the flight path is exceptionally level. I've even at times caught 405 gr slugs going to 200 yd targets, and there's none of the "rainbow" trajectory going on.
Anyway the glasses that I see the most bullet flights with are 20x 60 binoculars. The Burris 20-60x80 landmark spotting scope works sometimes at as much as 30 power.

[winchester1886]

Did this all happen in one life time.

[Don McDowell]

Jeremy one other thing , it does make quite a bit of differenc in actual practice between the paper patch 44 cal bullets and the 45 cal grease grooves. The pp patch will need fewer minutes elevation,than the grease grooves.

[Don McDowell]

Did this all happen in one life time.

One of the really neat things about the Quigley movie? It only took 1 guy from Wyoming to get the upper hand on what 50-60 Aussies?

[cowboykell]

Good one, Don.

[Griff]

Don,
I certainly ain't disputin' ya, but the difference in trajectory between 200-300 yards and 1300-1500 yards is very dramatic. And yes, launch velocity plays a very important part in the equation. I also don't agree with the "rainbow" trajectory description, as I believe it's quite (ellipitical), the approach to max elevation is very flat and then falls quite rapidly. This is more dramatic with lighter bullets than in big, heavy long ones, hence the increased penetration that is evident in slow, heavy projectiles.

[Don McDowell]

Griff the best I can tell you is sometime if you get a chance just get a good seat on the firing line, and with the lenses in a good pair of binoculars or a spttter, on agood sunny day with the sun maybe coming from behind a bit, Watch real close.
At first you'll think those bullets are a sparrow or such flittin by the target then it'll dawn on ya just what your seeing. What you'll be able to see of the bullets flight will sure not look anything like what the trajectory tables tells you it ought to be.
Jim Bourn at Alliance often keeps score and spots for the ARC monthly shoots, he on more than one occasion says he had the bullet in his ancient old Kowa scope all the way from the muzzle to the 1000 yd line.

Thankee Kell

[Noah Zark]

It's only a movie . . . its' only a movie . . .

Noah

[kimwcook]

It's only a movie . . . its' only a movie . . .

Noah

But we're now delving into the realm of physics. Obviously, I'm not a participating contributor to the equation. All I have is a high school dyploma, deploma, diplomma. I graduated high school.

[Blaine]

It's only a movie . . . its' only a movie . . .

Noah

Harumph......After Quigley got back to America, He starred in Magnum PI.....How do you explain that one?????

[Cimarron Red]

I recall reading a piece about 1000 yard Creedmoor matches (naturally, I can't remember the source) that stated the angle at which the bullet from a typical BP long range cartridge enters the target is approximately 5 degrees.

[Buck Elliott]

Did this all happen in one life time.

One of the really neat things about the Quigley movie? It only took 1 guy from Wyoming to get the upper hand on what 50-60 Aussies?

THAT should tell the rest of you something...

[Noah Zark]

It's only a movie . . . its' only a movie . . .

Noah

Harumph......After Quigley got back to America, He starred in Magnum PI.....How do you explain that one?????

Easy. Quigley went through the Time Tunnel.

Movie, TV -- it's still Hollywood . . . It's still Hollywood . . .

Noah

[Don McDowell]

Did this all happen in one life time.

One of the really neat things about the Quigley movie? It only took 1 guy from Wyoming to get the upper hand on what 50-60 Aussies?

THAT should tell the rest of you something...

Maybe you'ld like to expand on that one a bit there Buck ol son

[Buck Elliott]

One of the really neat things about the Quigley movie? It only took 1 guy from Wyoming to get the upper hand on what 50-60 Aussies?[/quote]

THAT should tell the rest of you something...[/quote]
Maybe you'ld like to expand on that one a bit there Buck ol son [/quote]

Don't send a hole herd of conscripted convicts (or much of anybody else, for that matter...) to overhaul one Wyoming Cowboy's attitude... It ain't healthy nor profitable.

[Don McDowell]

Well shoot I thought maybe you was just taking back bitin cheap shots at someone you've never met.
I am a bit suprised you didn't have anything to put into the conversation about trajectory of the big rifles and maybe share some experiences with the long range shooting with those old cartridges.

[Noah Zark]

. . . you didn't have anything to put into the conversation about trajectory of the big rifles and maybe share some experiences with the long range shooting with those old cartridges.

Quigley obviously had a full set of range tables for his field piece. Like all artillery, be it a 155 mm or a 50-70, shooting a Sharps in most any Sharps-like chambering is a matter of working out the ballistics -- trajectory, elevation, windage, traverse, warhead type, etc. What was the most impressive about Quigley's shooting was that he fired his field piece without a crew, and had no forward observer calling back the hits.

I'd comment on those two Marlin 1895s in 45-70 that the Germans used in that island mountain in "The Guns of Navarone" that were blown up by David Niven and Gregory Peck. Yup, little-known fact but Krupp made the 1895 under license from Marlin, but that's for a different thread. . .

"Feind in Feuerbereich! Feind in Feuerbereich!"
"Well, you're in in now, up to your neck!"

Another classic flick.

Noah

[Don McDowell]

Noah there is a good ballistics question in the original post. Sorry you can't see it, maybe you just don't care , and that's fine.
The best I can tell you is the things I've observed from behind the firing line at many many bpcr shoots. I attend as many as 6, 2day shoots most of which will end up having around 80 -100 rouns fired for score , at targets ranging from 200-1000+yds. While most of us that do participate in these shoots do carry notebooks that carry sight settings for various loads,range conditions, distances etc, we also know pretty close to what the sight settings will need to be before we ever pack our stuff to the firing line. In addition to those big shoots, I try and get to the nearest local clubs monthly shoots when I can. Failing that , just behind the house here we can shoot to over 1 mile. We have a gong and target board set at 270 yds off the upstairs deck, so when the wife and I get a litle bored we pop out on the deck and burn some powder. When we have the cows home and the ranges here at the house are shut down, we quite often go down to the south pasture and up a draw there we have a target board set, and the range flagged out to 800 yds. In short we shoot up somewhere around 100lbs of lead in match quality bullets, and close to that in good bullets but maybe not exactly match quality, along with about a case of blackpowder, and several pounds of smokeless every year.
Quigley or most any other rifleman of the time would of known about how much elevation need be cranked into the sight to make a hit at the range he quessed it would be. That knowledge would of came by untold rounds gone down range. So yes it was just a movie, but at the same time the ballistics question asked in the first post is a good one, and the answer to it surprises most folks that have never fired those big old cartridges,especially at anything approaching long distance. The accuracy that those cartridges and guns are capable of is astounding.
You really ought to go try it once.

[Noah Zark]

Well Don, I apologize if my light-hearted attempt at injecting some levity into the thread offended you. I did put a after my name, but perhaps that was missed along with the humorous intent of the post.

I have a dry, facetious sense of humor, and it's both a blessing and a curse. So again, I'm sorry if it offended because that wasn't the intent.

Switching to serious mode: With respect, I currently own a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps in 45-70 and once owned a Shiloh in 45-90 and have gone and "tried it" more than once, in fact, i've "tried it" for going on 25 years with large caliber single-action rifles at ranges out to 1200 ft. Here in PA, trees, hillis, and valleys get in the way at distances greater than that. I shoot weekly, too, and have shot competitively, and I won't bother going into the shooting I've done as a USMC/USMCR armorer (2111) from '72 to '86. I'll leave my "bona fides" at that so as to not sound like this is a urinary performance comparison between us, K?

So to address the original post:

. . . I don't have a Sharps, so I'm making assumptions. Shooting from the mentioned 3/4 mile, the bullets start out at, say, 1300 fps. Once it leaves the muzzle, the bullet will slow down to below the speed of sound pretty quickly. However the speed of sound will remain constant at a little over 1100 fps. It would make sense to me that the sound wave will overtake the bullet somewhere along that 3/4 mile distance.

I get to employ my '78-vintage Mechanical Engineering degree!

It is entirely possible and likely that given the right conditions those two deceased bad guys killed by the one shot could have heard the report by the time the bullet hit them at 3/4 mile. It is a "related rate" problem of the type commonly given to students in high school calculus classes -- Determine which item arrives first, given that one item travels at a constant velocity and the other item is decellerating, thus its velocity is changing per unit time.

Two primary variables that affect the result are muzzle velocity and terminal velocity. Assumptions could be made as to those variables and the distance at which the sound of the report overtook the fired bullet could be calculated. In fact, given the 1300 FPS velocity assumed by Deerwhacker in his OP, and assuming a terminal velocity of 800 FPS, the report of Quigley's rifle would have been what the bad guys heard about the time the slug entered the first BG's chest, given my calculations.

However, change those assumed velocities and make them both a couple hundred FPS higher and you would get the result presented in the movie. Further, add in secondary variables such as temperature (sound travels slower in hot air, which is less dense), and wind (like ships and aircraft, sound travels faster with a following wind), and even with the original assumptions of 1300 and 800 FPS, the BGs could very well be bleeding when the report hit their ears.

In summary to Deerwhacker's excellent question, the answer is "Yes, it is entirely possible and even likely that the report may reach the BGs first, just as it is equally possible that the bullet reached them first as in the movie." Depends on the variables involved.

Since the bullet did reach the BGs in the movie before the report, we have to assume that the muzzle velocity and terminal velocities of Quigley's rounds from his rifle on that day at that temperature and wind direction/speed were sufficiently higher than 1300 FPS and 800 FPS, and the movie realistically portrayed what could have happened. Likewise, had the movie shown the BGs hearing the report at the same time they were it, that would have been equally realistic. The velocities would have to have been lower, that's all. And since it's a movie, IMO there's more dramatic effect in that report catching up to the fallen BGs already hit by the slug. IMO, that "late" report is a metaphor for a period punctuation mark, like the one at the end of this sentence.

Noah

[Modoc ED]

Nobody addressed the effects (or is it affects) of weather on the speed of sound of the shot. Weather does effect (or is it affect) the way sound travels. I don't know how or why it does but it does.

[Don McDowell]

Well Noah had you of posted something similar to your last post ,in your first post in this one you sure could of saved your "dry" sense of humor some heartburn, now couldn't you have.

[Noah Zark]

Well Noah had you of posted something similar to your last post ,in your first post in this one you sure could of saved your "dry" sense of humor some heartburn, now couldn't you have.

I don't get heartburn, Don. But I do get the piles.

Noah

[Don McDowell]

[buckeyeshooter]

you guys got waaaaaaaaaaaaayy too much time on your hands!