O.S.O.K. - AR 15 Questions from newbie

[DixieBoy]

O.S.O.K. - First off, I want to thank you for posting all of that information on your Stag lowers thread. Great stuff !

I am one of those guys who didn't know one end of an AR 15 from a hole in the ground until just the last few weeks. Have to confess to being more a fan of the larger calibers, and also spending much more time shooting .45 acp pistols.

However, I caught your post two nights ago, and came home from work last night and followed those additional links you added. Thanks again. But...

I'd like to ask you if you know of a book equivalent of "AR 15's for Dummies." For instance, I know now about the whole Lowers and Uppers deal, and how the Lower is FFL-necessary component, and since following your links I also know a little about loading .223 for both bolt actions and AR platforms. Man, I have to admit that I've been overlooking what appear to be really cool rifles. Now I'm stuck trying to play catch-up, with the dark cloud of the political scene moving overhead like an incoming storm. Meaning, that I've gotta educate myself fast, and try to get my mitts on what gear I think will be most important.

I asked about the book idea because I still am hazy on things like the "tube" which is noted for when you want to outfit your rifle with a collapsible stock, for instance. From what I've read online, the designation of your rifle as a carbine, or something else, is going to determine what you need if you want to set yourself up with a collapsible stock. This is one of the first questions that comes to mind for me, but I'm sure others will surface.

Again, I would like to thank you for taking the time to post the info which you've put up there already. I'm calling my favorite shop tomorrow and make arrangements for the Stag lower unit. Now I need to figure out what the heck to do in constructing an upper. I've had my mind opened up - bigtime - to this whole AR world. Trying to make up now for lost time, and trying to do this in a hurry too.

Your knowledge in this area has been the opening of the AR door for me, maybe for others of us out there too. - DixieBoy

[Rexster]

I am not O.S.O.K., but the buffer tube is indeed different if you are going to use a collapsible stock. In total layman's terms, there is a rib along the bottom of the carbine-type buffer tube.

Something that will really help you understand any weapon is the DVD series by Larry Crow. I have seen them at gunshows and local gun shops, but usually order mine from Brownells. If you don't know about Brownells, you should. Their catalog is a wonderful wish book, and they have a supplement catalog of just AR stuff. Yes, they have a website, just put a dot and a com after their name, but the nice thing about a paper catalog is being able to skim through it and see things you didn't know that you didn't know.

In addition to the Larry Crow DVDs, there is more AR gold, available from Brownells. A new book, _Green Eyes and Black Rifles_, by Kyle Lamb, a respected warrior in the current war against radical Islam, and the Magpul Dynamics DVD set, with highlights of a basic class, a more advanced class, and a third DVD on rifle drills. While don't agree with all aspects of the methods shown in the DVDs, it is GOOD material presented by one of the most respected firearms instructors in the business today. The DVDs are no real substitute for personal training or coaching, but are an excellent intro and review.

Just to be clear, I am no AR expert, just a fellow learner, who is a bit further along. I attended a 4-day certification class in 2002, taught by my agency's SWAT guys, that gave me the blessing to tote an AR as a patrol carbine. It was an intensive, but basic course. That is the extent of my formal AR experience. I recently managed to successfully assemble a lower receiver, with a parts kit, using an A2 type of stock, not the collapsible carbine type of stock.

When I mentioned I did not agree with all aspects it the training DVDs, one part that comes to mind is in the malfunction reduction part; I don't think that slamming the bottom of the magazine is always the best first step.

[Rexster]

While the definition of "carbine" is not set in stone, in the context of AR15 rifles, excluding other weapons, the ones with 20" and longer barrels are usually considered rifles, and the 16" and under weapons carbines. A longer-barreled weapon can be equipped with a collapsible stock, and a short-barreled weapon can have a fixed stock. During the first Assault Weapons Ban, there were many ARs built to cosmetically look like collapsible-stock carbines, but the stocks were fixed into position. Those weapons, should, I believe, have the carbine-type buffer tubes.

Once again, just to be clear, I am no AR expert, just a learner who is a bit further along.

Also, DixieBoy, your Central Florida location puts you in a mecca of ARgunning. I have seen postings on other forums about some serious, heavy-hitter instructors doing seminars in your area.

[Paladin]

http://www.bhigear.com/m16m4handbook-bymikepannone.aspx
This is a book for someone who has not had any training on M-16s or for someone who has very little and needs to carry a refresher. Erik the owner keeps them in stock and just got a fresh batch in. We have issued then in the sandbox to some.

[DixieBoy]

Thanks guys. I'm heading over to a gun show in Orlando on Saturday. Hope to get a few more of my questions answered, and I'm sure I'll have new ones too. Rexster and Paladin, thanks. I'm going to check out all of this info.

One thing that I'll note here for all those who haven't checked into all of this AR stuff yet. It is amazing how much load development has been done with the .223, and just how many different things guys are doing with these rifles. I feel like an ostrich who's just pulled his head out of the sand.

Many thanks. - DixieBoy

[brokenhand]

Check out this website. There is even some free down loads including the military manual.
Jim
http://www.ar15.com/forums/

[Idahoser]

I'm certainly not against books, but having been where you are and having received the recommendation I'm giving you now, and then having built two rifles, I can agree--
You don't need to spend money for this info. AR15.com has everything you need.

For your immediate needs, going to the gun show, you don't have to have all of it straight YET.

If you come home with stripped lowers or complete lowers, you will have done the part that takes dealing with FFLs or transfers or whatever. You can mail order anything else you need.

Other than those lowers, MAGAZINES is something you want to stock up on now. New ones from mil contractors are in the $11 to $15 range until very recently, though that price may find out-of-stock listings now, so that's where I'd put my research in the time until your gun show-- try to find out how much you can actually buy 20- and 30-round aluminum mags with a dark finish and anti-tilt followers. C-Products is the brand I bought, they are a contractor that sells to the US military, but of course not the only one. For reference you could use their info.

Lower receivers are generic, as long as you are talking about a 5.56/.223 rifle. Of course there are other options but I'm not attempting to address those.
[edited for clarity]
The collapsible stock, and the rifle stock, that I bought in kits, came with everything you need, all the parts for 'behind' the receiver... the stock itself, the proper size buffer tube, the buffer, and the buffer spring. You will need a generic "lower parts kit" which includes the handgrip, all the internal parts for the lower reciever, pins to hold on the upper, all the little detents and springs, the hammer/trigger/springs/safety/all that stuff, mag release, everything. If you buy a COMPLETE lower, it will already have all of that installed (receiver, parts kit, stock). Add a magazine and complete upper to a complete lower and you have a rifle. The upper doesn't care about the stock, the grip doesn't care about the barrel, etc. It's all modular.

[Warhawk]

Check out this website. There is even some free down loads including the military manual.
Jim
http://www.ar15.com/forums/

What he said ... There is a lot of great info there, even a forum called BUILD IT YOURSELF with instructions and info on how to do it and what you'll need.

To answer one of your questions, the upper receiver is typically bought assembled. This includes headspacing, which is a critical operation.

[Idahoser]

...This includes headspacing, which is a critical operation.

well, yes but. Installing the barrel extension on the barrel would be critical. It's already done when you buy a barrel, any way I've seen one available. This assembly could be safely installed in an upper without worry, assuming it came from a reputable manufacturer but you make the same assumption when you buy any rifle.

[O.S.O.K.]

Dixieboy - you are most welcome! And just to be clear on this - I am no expert either! I've just been through the process of researching, procuring and assembling.

One thing I think is very important to point out at this time is that the Stag Lowers from Weaponeer.com and the rifle kits from del-ton.com are both going to take at least two months to ship... something to consider.

It is entirely possible that dear leader BHO may be presented with a fresh new assault weapons ban bill to sign before these ship! Many don't think so, but it's a possiblity...

If I didn't own an AR yet and really wanted to be sure and get one, I'd probably spend the extra $$$ and get one right now. I've heard of Bushmasters being on sale at Academy for example - for around $800 - a good deal.

I would suggest checking out http://www.atlanticfirearms.com Blaine, the owner is very fair and has his stuff priced fairly - not jacked up with the current craze - I would suggest calling them to see what's in stock. I'd recommend any of the AR's that they stock accept Olympic - I personally avoid that brand. If you go register at gunsnet.net - and let them know that you're a member there, there is a small discount or free shipping...

After you get one, you will want another or two.... they're just like leverguns that way!

[H_Talon]

not sure if anyone suggested it ... check out ar15.com .. ok I noticed it
was alread mentioned ..
I have purchased stuff from Del-ton .. they were great to me ...

good luck .. with your EBR ...

one note .. pay a little extra and get a chrome lined barrel ...
way better than a non chrome .. especially if you shoot cheap wolf
stuff ... also get a barrel from a known co. with a matched bolt ...

Talon

[O.S.O.K.]

FYI - this is the thread that DixieBoy is referring to: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13139&p=159065#p159065

And yes, I suggested arfcom

[JReed]

When I mentioned I did not agree with all aspects it the training DVDs, one part that comes to mind is in the malfunction reduction part; I don't think that slamming the bottom of the magazine is always the best first step.

What you described is part of what is know as Tap Rack Bang. This is immediate action and is taught to the military and law enforcement as what to do in the event of a stopage. The first thing you do when the weapon fails to fire is tap the bottom of the magazine rack the charging handle and atempt to fire (the bang part). When giving the range classes to my Marines I always teach them to insert the mag firmly and give it a tug to ensure that it is seated and then give it a little tap to ensure that the first round loads when you rack it.

If anyone is interested I have the manuals for the M16 and M4 electronicaly to include the course of fire for the Marine Corps rifle range P.M. me your email address and I will send them to you.

[DixieBoy]

Hey Guys - Thank you for steering me in the right direction. I got some incredibly good news since I posted last. A really good friend has found me a Bushmaster, I believe that it's an XM 15 E2S, with a flat top receiver and a bull barrel.

Whatever it is, the price absolutely cannot be beat, it's a "pay me back when you can" offering. He knows these rifles, but usually works out of state, so I don't get to shoot with him or hang out like we did in the old days. We've helped each other out over the years, and right now I'm the guy without the $ I'd like to have to invest properly in this area. Friends like this do not grow on trees.

I'm going to see this rifle for the first time tomorrow (Saturday), and I will take you guys advice on hunting down quality magazines. I think O.S.O.K. is right with his not-so-cheery prediction, re: the BHO moves we can expect to see, probably sooner than later.

Personally, I think any congresscritter/senator who votes to ban firearms ought to be tried for treason. This really makes my blood boil, but it's late now, and if I get myself worked up over this now I'll never get to sleep. Already pretty excited about seeing this rifle tomorrow.

I'll report back Saturday night. Thanks again for this excellent guidance. - DixieBoy

[O.S.O.K.]

Hey that is great news! Congrats! What a great friend you have.

That's the same model Bushmaster that I have - only mine is a milspec type with carry handle receiver and standard 20" barrel. I love it - excellent quality and very accurate.



Keep in mind too that you can get complete upppers and utilize the lower for them - switching out as you wish to change the type of rifle.

I personally like having complete rifles - that way me and my boys can shoot them at the same time.

On ammo, I would council not going the cheap Wolf brand route - this ammo is great for .223 AK's but I don't like it for AR's - its too dirty and steel cases are harder on the extractors - it does usually work just fine and it won't ruin your extractor immediately - its more an excellerated wear issue. Go with decent brass ammo instead that you can reload. And that's another whole issue.

Also, you are getting a flat top, so you'll probably be puting a scope on it? Just remember that you need high mounts to put the scope about the same height as the carry handle sights would be - the stock is designed to put your eye at that level. And I recommend YHM Flip-up adjustable rear backup sights as well. They make em for the front gas block too if it doesn't have a front sight currently. Always good to have irons available. IMHO.

Looking forward to your pics and range report!

[mescalero1]

O.S.A.K.
Thanks for the info on YHM sights, need something for my CAR.
Do you know of any others?

[O.S.O.K.]

Oh man, there are plenty of choice - how much do you want to spend?

Check http://www.del-ton.com http://www.bravocompanyusa.com http://www.uscav.com

For starters...

I think the Yankee Hill Manuf. brand is the best for the $$. But it may not be exactly what you want. It folds down, locks up and is windage and elevation adjustable. $80. There are some that just clamp on and you take em off when not using. Others that are built like a tank, etc.

Heres the YHM on my m4gery:

[mescalero1]

I like the low power fixed scope on there now, just feel like I need iron... just in case

[AJMD429]

Sort of bending the thread, but what about RELOADS for a gas-operated semi-auto?

My current powder stock only includes Unique, IMR-4895, and SR-5744, and 2400.

[JReed]

Sort of bending the thread, but what about RELOADS for a gas-operated semi-auto?

My current powder stock only includes Unique, IMR-4895, and SR-5744, and 2400.

blc2 is a great powder for .223rem and .308win

[Rexster]

When I mentioned I did not agree with all aspects it the training DVDs, one part that comes to mind is in the malfunction reduction part; I don't think that slamming the bottom of the magazine is always the best first step.

What you described is part of what is know as Tap Rack Bang. This is immediate action and is taught to the military and law enforcement as what to do in the event of a stopage. The first thing you do when the weapon fails to fire is tap the bottom of the magazine rack the charging handle and atempt to fire (the bang part). When giving the range classes to my Marines I always teach them to insert the mag firmly and give it a tug to ensure that it is seated and then give it a little tap to ensure that the first round loads when you rack it.

If anyone is interested I have the manuals for the M16 and M4 electronicaly to include the course of fire for the Marine Corps rifle range P.M. me your email address and I will send them to you.

Yes, the tap-rack-bang is part with which I have some disagreement. I like to instead grab the mag and make sure it is seated, and a pull helps ensure that, so I grab, then push in HARD, and then pull HARD, before getting on with the racking and triggering. A tap, or slap, alone, does not ensure it is seated, just that it is up against something. A slap and then a pull are two motions performed at two different points on the mag, whereas the push and pull are done from the same point. The grab and push are slower than the tap, but I want to get that pull done, too. OK, I agree that tap-rack-bang is indeed simpler to teach, and will solve most problems, so it is a good system; I just think grab, push, and pull is a bit better. Keep in mind that if it is a true and immediate emergency, with imminent, close danger, I, being an LEO, will transition to a point-and-click pistol, not waste time trying to get the rifle going. Being a lefty with rifles, and carrying the duty pistol on the right hip, I don't even have to let go of the rifle. Military guys have different priorities, especially if they have no pistol, or their pistol is way down on the leg, so I won't argue against tap-rack-bang.

[Rexster]

And, FWIW, I don't train to think of "bang" as part of malfunction reduction, because my rules of engagement differ from those of the military. The last part of my malf clearance is to bring the weapon onto target, and only bang if it is then still necessary. Private citizens can reach their own conclusions, based on their locale's rules of engagement.

[JReed]

When doing Tap Rack Bang the idea is that you never take the weapon off target. All of it is done with the none firing hand while maintaining your sight picture and your finger straight and off the trigger.

The problem with just tugging on the mag is if it is an older mag with weakening springs tugging it down will make it so that the next round is not lifted high enough to be picked up by the bolt as it cycles. Same could happen when you first insert the mag and try to load the first round.

Not trying to get in to a peeing contest with you. Just passing on what I have learned as a Combat Marksmanship Coach and as a basic rifleman of over 12 years.

As to shooting in a defensive situation in my training it is 2 to the chest and 1 to the head dont have to worry about the BG
getting up and trying to kill you. Better tried by 12 then carried by 6.

[Rexster]

No peeing contest intended; we are on the same page, overall. And, I believe in keeping the weapon up and oriented toward the target, too, at least until the decision is made to let it hang and go to pistol.

FWIW, the Magpul Dynamic DVDs present the "S.P.O.R.T.S." malfunction clearance, not just the tap-rack-bang, and part of S.P.O.R.T.S. is using the forward assist reflexively, every time. I don't see the forward assist as something that should automatically be used as part of every malfunction reduction. After reviewing the whole of the S.P.O.R.T.S. presentation, however, I noticed the instructor at that point downplaying the use of the forward assist, himself, and saying it was optional, so I will now downplay my disagreement with the DVD's malf reduction presentation.

My problem with the forward assist is that it can force an out-of-spec cartridge deeper into the chamber, which might lead to a worse problem. I believe in using the forward assist with a light touch, primarily to make sure the weapon is in battery after a chamber check.

[O.S.O.K.]

Sort of bending the thread, but what about RELOADS for a gas-operated semi-auto?

My current powder stock only includes Unique, IMR-4895, and SR-5744, and 2400.

W748 and Hodgedon Varget are my two favorites. Varget is probably the better of the two being less temperature sensitive - just that it's a stick powder...

Best to use CCI's milspec primers too for any autoloader with a floating pin.

[Idahoser]

My limited experience should most certainly not be confused with 'wisdom', but here's what I have decided on for my own guns.

I bought a kit for my first AR. It had some features I wanted, I can explain why if you care, such as a counter-to-currently-popular LIGHTWEIGHT barrel. Seems every manf thinks everybody wants to shoot from the bench for groups. I wanted something I'd carry. It came with an old 1:12 A1 barrel, lightweight 20".
I wanted fixed comfortable stocks and it came with the M16 style, rounded no-trap-door buttstock and triangular handguard. It came with a straight pistol grip, and at the time I didn't know enough to care either way.
I thought I wanted the more easily tuned A2 sights, which it came with. I bought a square A2 front post to replace the round A1 style it came with.

For my second rifle, I wanted even more simple/robust. I have no intention of putting optics or rails or lights on these guns, that would defeat the purpose. I found a slab-side upper with A1 sight (the kind you need a tool or a bullet point to adjust). The reasoning for this was, once it's zeroed, I don't imagine the need to adjust it for any shooting I'd need to do. The fwd assist in what I've read does more harm than good, so leaving it off made it easier to fit behind the truck seat.

Collapsible stock and mid-length barrel. I've never experienced it, but I 'get' what's wrong with the M4gery design, which the midlength fixes it. Yes, it takes a special length of handguards and gas tube. So I'll get spares. This was the only expensive 'special' thing about either of my rifles, that barrel. It's a 1:9 lightweight from Sabre Defence which is here in Nashville. I spent a bit more for my BCG being slab-side, but if I'm not mistaken a standard A2 bolt should have also worked.
If I ever have spare money again I'll do the A1 upper treatment to the first rifle as well, I don't need or want the FA or A2 sights.

[505stevec]

Great advice you all.

+1 on AR-15.com what a great location to learn the good the bad and the ugly about ARs.

[Ysabel Kid]

O.S.O.K. - I really like the decoration on your buttstock!!!

[DixieBoy]

Howdy guys - Well, I picked up the rifle Saturday. Went to the gun show in Orlando the same day with my buddy, looking for a carry handle. The receiver is a flat top (please excuse any AR "faux pas", as I am an absolute rank newbie, BUT, a fast learner too ). Anyway, my friend insisted that I have a carry handle so that iron sights backup would always be available.
An inexpensive Bushnell fixed power had been mounted on the flat top previously.

We searched high and low, saw a mountain of AR parts, but no carry handle, and then a guy I know from our area (Melbourne) walked up and started talking with us. Turned out that he had exactly what I needed, so last night I picked that up and got some very basic instruction in the workings of the rifle.

No manual was included so I've already called Bushmaster and requested one for the XM 15 model. This one was built during the ban, and so has no flash suppressor, nor is it threaded for one. That's fine; I'll live without that.

I AM interested in fitting a collapsible stock (telescoping stock?) to this rifle, if for no other reason than portability. That, and so the neighbors aren't immediately aware that I'm carrying a rifle in and out of the apartments. Not that I am not proud to be a rifle shooter (hey, I've long been a devotee of my Marlin 1895 in .45-70, after all) but that I always am concerned about theft. Never know who moves into these complexes any more, even though this area is still pretty decent.

Guys, one thing that has been glaringly apparent in the few weeks, or maybe one month, since I've been tuning in to the AR thing: there is such a massive scramble for anything AR connected that it's almost scary. We saw incredibly overpriced ammo at the show, what there was of it. That kind of thing ain't new, but this is different.

For the next few weeks I'm going to scrounge at Wally worlds, gun shops, anyplace, to build up a stash of loaded ammo, and also components. The 1 in 9" twist means 55 grain to 68 grain bullets, generally speaking, no ?

Gotta get to work now; I'll check in late tonight. Thanks to all of you guys for providing so much good info and help. I am one excited little pup right now. - DixieBoy

[Thunder50]

You can always seperate the lower from the upper and you will have a much more compact package, that is, unless you want the collapseable buttstock.

[DixieBoy]

Hey, before running out the door I figured I would ask one quick question in the hopes that someone has a recommendation on the carry handle scope mount. I did a very fast search on midway's site late last night and saw what I think I might need there, but I'm not certain. I have a carry handle on the rifle now. Any recommendations on a solid setup for putting a lower to medium power variable on the rifle. I figure this scope ought to smaller, probably a 1.5 - 5x, or 2 - 7x tops.

I've gotten nothing but solid info from you guys so I will follow up your leads.

By the way, O.S.O.K., I read you loud and clear on the cheapy ammo. I won't look twice at the Wolf stuff for this rifle. I hear they make a couple very good loads for .22 rimfire, but I'll stay with name brand components and loaded ammo for this rifle.
I've found some Remington 55 gr. FMJ at Wally Worlds, just by chance, as they are almost always out of .223 lately when I've checked there. Think I've got maybe 80 rounds so far, kinda pitful. I'll breathe a little easier when I've got brass and bullets for at least a couple thousand rounds. Tough to do when you're poor, but I'll get there.

Talk with you all again tonight. - DixieBoy

Whoa - cool feature, this showing a recent post before the system puts your own post out there.

O.S.O.K. - Yes, I confess that the collapsible stock also looks just plain cool to me. I like the idea of being able to transport the rifle in a smaller soft case, but the collapsible stock gets my heart beatin' a little faster too. Not that we need excuses, do we?

I've gotta get my butt to work now, but "Ahhhhhl be back." - DixieBoy

[Idahoser]

So the stock and the sights are already not what you wanted. You can live without a flash suppressor, but you'd rather have it. See, you could have built a rifle cheaper...

Anything on it is easy to change, ar15.com is where you learn how, watch for little springs (I think there's one under the plate when you remove the stock). There are special tools that you will want. A combination tool $10 or $50 for the barrel nut and stock castle nut, the $50 tool has some extra goodies and I like it but the $10 fits in a small kit easier. There's also the little tool that does the AR stock nut and a 1911 barrel bushing, but I think that only works on one or the other kind of stock, I don't remember which. You may never choose to change a barrel, since uppers can be had assembled for the popular configurations.

You can buy a new complete upper now, from the gun show or mail order (not a gun, no FFL required) or make your own and get the barrel and upper you want. As an additional upper, I mean. Just leave the original in the safe.

A six-position telescoping collapsible stock cost me about $50. There are other styles, 4-thing, folding, etc.

Detachable carry handles added to flat tops are NOT as good as uppers with integrated carry handles if a carry handle is what you want. If you want optics, they could be added above a carry handle, but that's what a flat top was designed to do.

Me, I don't want optics on a AR. I like my carry handles that actually have room for my fingers. Peep sights are great.

DO YOU HAVE LOTS OF MAGAZINES!!??

[O.S.O.K.]

Well congrats! Let me see if I can post a few places to buy bulk ammo:

http://www.ammoman.com/
http://www.ammunitionstore.com/
http://www.aimsurplus.com
http://www.jgsales.com/
http://www.southernammo.com/
http://www.dansammo.com/Default.asp
http://www.copesdistributing.net/

And yes, you need mags...

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Magazine_p/mp1000.htm (yes they are in stock as of this posting...)

I really like magpul followers - the above have em - price is decent - you can find em for less - but not in stock!

As for the optics and back up iron sight (buis) I suggest high mounts and a YHM folding backup sight. The back up sight stays on the rifle and is there if you need or want it. The rings will be lighter and probably sturdier than a clamp-on carry handle with a mount on it.

You've already got the handle, so you can use an inexspensive channel mount - these are available at many different places - check del-ton, http://www.bravocompanyusa.com for a couple.

Hope that helps - looking forward to pics and a range report!

[DixieBoy]

Idahoser and O.S.O.K. - Once again, thanks guys. Idahoser, for me this rifle is the closest thing to a gift that I'll ever have. My friend who found it knew that I was spooked after the election, and also, that I'm close to flat broke. I owe him for it, but he knows my $ situation and did me a tremendous favor. Without him I'd have nothing. So I've got a flat top AR, and now, I've got a carry handle for it too. Doesn't sound like a problem to me.

As it is right now, this rifle is more than enough to keep me happy. But I'm a shooter just like all of us are, and you and I both know that we can't ever just leave things alone, we've got to play with 'em, gussy 'em up, etc. But more than anything I am grateful for an amigo who was in a position to help an old buddy.

This AR business is completely new to me; I find that I'm still overwhelmed by all of the possibilities and all of the information out there. This is a good thing, as I'm a pretty quick learner, but my acquisitions regarding customizations will definitely come incrementally.

I'm going to check out some of these sources you noted O.S.O.K.. Thanks to you again. Some additional work is available to me this week, and I've gotta take it to help pay for this stuff, but the following weekend after this I'm looking at my first range excursion. I'm gonna be ready to burst by then ! - DixieBoy

[O.S.O.K.]

That's great - like I said- a good friend.

You may have saved some cash going the build you own route, but sometimes like these times its better to have one in hand...

Looking forward to hearing the range report!