Ballistics, 32-20

[rost495]

Never mind, most of you are off topic.

[Terry Murbach]

THAT IS A MIGHTY PUNY LOAD WITH WHICH TO BE SHOOTING A DEER...YOU MIGHT WANT TO THINK A BIT MORE ABOUT THIS.

[O.S.O.K.]

Sounds like a "cowboy action" load - probably only going 900 fps or so - if that. I would definately NOT hunt any deer with that load. The full power rifle loads are even marginal - but fine if you're carefull with shot placement and stay within 75 yards or so.

Do you handload? I gather not? If not, I'd post a question here about a good factory load for hunting...

[rost495]

Thanks for the info. I got the shot and shooting under control.

Interesting to know it might be cowboy loads. Didn't know that.

I reload, just not ready for this one yet. Not that much loading, generally not over 10K a year, but whatever we burn up when shooting. 100 XTPS are waiting.

Of course we all know a 22 in the lungs is dead, so the 32wcf will be located correctly at close range so everyone can rest easier. Not your average joe shooting or first deer shot at here. Just new to levers and old rounds.

Jeff

[AJMD429]

Yep - you need to reload some hotter rounds to be decent on deer. No doubt millions of deer have fallen to the .32-20 in days of yore, but for a humane kill even at 25-50 yards, I'd want a fairly 'stout' load vs. the cowboy ones.

A 'stout' .32-20 load is close to .30 Carbine in performance.

A 'cowboy' one is closer to a 9mm Luger.

Of course the REAL variable is 'placement' - and I'm sure someone will post how you can kill a deer with a .22LR if you hit the right spot.

Midway or some place might sell already-loaded .32-20's with some punch.

[Hobie]

Ya know, that lead 100 gr. at 900 ain't even a 9mm Luger FMJ equivalent. And, not KNOWING the ballistics makes it even more of a stuff shoot. I've got a .32-20 and if I HAD to EAT or STARVE, I'd use it on deer but I've got better and I do believe the deer deserves better if better can be done. Cull or not, they deserve better. That's my take on it.

[KirkD]

If it is 1" high at 50 yards and 14 " low at 100, it has got to be moving very slow indeed. Even if it does succeed in penetrating through the ribs into the lungs, it will not do sufficient damage to bleed out a deer in any reasonable length of time. Last week, I shot through both lungs of a Whitetail deer with a 150 grain bullet moving at over 2,000 fps (2,200 at the muzzle). Even then, it ran 100 yards before expiring. A little 100 grain bullet moving along at 500 fps may not do the job at all. I have chronographed Winchester 32-20 ammo and it was around 1,080 fps. That is pretty anemic. You will either have to reload your 32-20 cartridges to something closer to Winchester's original H.V. loads, or put aside any thoughts of ethically hunting Whitetail deer (unless you can make a brain shot).

[rost495]

Didn't mean to stir this up. I have my info, and its appreciated- most of it anyway. Ya'll have a great rest of the weekend.

You might have me interested enough in grabbing my chrono but its too late for the coming hunt.

I will report on the impossible if I get a good shot.

Jeff

[marlinman93]

Good luck, but I'm with Terry. I'd never use the .32-20 for deer, unless I handloaded a heavy bullet, very hot. Even then it wouldn't be over 50 yds.

[jdad]

I load a 115gr Laser Cast on top of 9.5gr of 2400, for silhouette. I go up a total of forty 1/4 min. clicks, from 50m-100m.

[rost495]

Thats good info. I'm about 4moa more drop than you are.

Thanks, Jeff

PS folks, sometimes I play big, sometimes small. Sometimes its a 45 or 9mm, or a 30 carbine(they work just fine with the right bullet!!) and sometimes I play large, like my 50 bmg... Bottom line right now, th 50 bmg has been the hardest deer to find so far. 200 some yards and no blood trail in brush. double lung hit just right. So its placement that kills, but size and energy dont' always account for bang flops. When it has to be serious, I take out the 7x300 wtby, 300 wtby, or the 338/378 wtby or borrow a 338 win mag. Thats if I feel its out of the realm of the 308.

[rost495]

Oh another BTW since ya'll are worried, we shoot meat deer as yearlings, that means live weight is rarely over 70 pounds..... like shooting a big coyote really... I wouldn't be tackling a 200 pound deer with this.

[KirkD]

Well I still got reservations, but keep us posted with photos as to what happens.

[.45colt]

As A Kid, I killed all kinds of critters big and small with air rifles and pelletguns,but at the time I had no choice and little supervision.just get very close and let i'm have it. I love the 32-20 and reload for it and I can't see using a lite plinker on any Deer. I would rather have a .22mag than that load.

[Nath]

This is going to be interesting.
Give it your best and report back here oh and take the camera

Nath.

[Both94sPlus]

The 32-20 WCF is legal for deer hunting here in CA, and given the description of the deer you're after--the 32-20 sounds adequate for the work.

Such hunting is outside my experience, but the 32-20 and 30 Carbine calibers certainly are not on small game and varmints. The flat-nosed 32-20 bullets at 1200-1300 FPS are at least as lethal as any 110 grain FMJ from a Carbine at 1800-1900 FPS, and I've dropped A LOT of jackrabbits with these loads. Get a Lyman #311316 going 1700 FPS from either caliber, and BAD THINGS happen to jacks. How that would translate to effectiveness on smaller deer, I wouldn't venture a guess--but it darn sure wouldn't do a deer much good.

[AJMD429]

I know we've been piling up to criticize rost495 for cartridge choice, but given the size of deer he's after, I just wanted to make a couple observations...

1) My son is using a 75 grain broadhead on a carbon fiber arrow at maybe 268 fps to kill big old Indiana deer potentially weighing over 200 lbs....

2) As a kid, I used a .22LR to kill dozens of wild dogs which often weighed up to and over 75 lbs., and they pretty much dropped on the spot.

Just a couple observations which I thought might put things in perspective...

[rost495]

Wife writes and takes pics for an ag newspaper, we are never far from a camera.

I appreciate the positive comments as this was questioning drop, not asking if I should or shouldn't do it. I may regret it. But doubt it. Having killed a LOT of under 100 pound hogs with a ruger MK1. Simply dump a round in the lungs and leave em alone a bit. Just like my mentor told me his dad taught him. Either the 22 longs or the 25-20, close shot, in the lungs and at that time, roll a smoke, smoke, and nibble on jerky and go get it.

We'll see. I hope most of you are wrong and I'm correct, but I stand by my word unless time is an issue, I'll admit screwing up if it happens. I'll document shot, deer size etc...and generally take entry and exit wound pics before cleaning, and then after gutting and sometimes damage to internals.

Controlled shot at a feeder from a close ground blind. I dont' like feeders at all, but if you hunt here on the place we do, its the only thing allowed, you can't sit where you want, wonder etc....

Jeff

[2ndovc]

I've been trying to stay out of this one but I just can't anymore.

The deer that you plan to kill with this feeble load deserves better.

Size not withstanding, this is entirely too light a round to kill the animal you are describing.
Why would anyone take even the slightest chance at a prolonged and painful death just because
he wants to "play" with a particular load?? Especially wiith so many better choices at hand.

To me this is irresponsile and unsportsmanlike!

Yes a lot of game animals have fallen to the 32-20 and lesser rounds but is it necessary to
do so? In a survival situation, sure. But just to try it? That's just wrong.
Why not just run one over? Would't that be just as interesting?

I'm not here to dog the 32-20, far from it. I'm a huge fan of the round and have been shooting one for almost 30 years.
But! Unless I'd already kicked, punched out and stabbed it twice I'd never try to kill a deer with one. I've had woodchucks walk away from
loads similar to what you describe.


Sad.
That animal deserves better.

Only once in my life have I had to shoot a deer more than once. Watching a wonded animal die shouldn't be an experiment.


jb

[marlinman93]

I know we've been piling up to criticize rost495 for cartridge choice, but given the size of deer he's after, I just wanted to make a couple observations...

1) My son is using a 75 grain broadhead on a carbon fiber arrow at maybe 268 fps to kill big old Indiana deer potentially weighing over 200 lbs....

Just a couple observations which I thought might put things in perspective...

At what, 20-30 yds.? At that distance I'd accept a .32-20 too. And I assume that broadhead leaves quite a wound channel; probably larger than .312".

[.45colt]

In My previous post I didn't clearly explain Myself. I am not against using the 32-20 on Deer,but the load described was a lite cowboy-action type. A hot load with Hornady XTP or a 115gr hardcast over a max load of 2400 is a whole different thing.

[KirkD]

The big red flag I have is the trajectory of the load that rost495 tried. 1" high at 50 yards and 14" low at 100 is what gets me concerned. I've tried all kinds of loads and velocities down to just over 1,000 fps and none of them had a rainbow trajectory anywhere near that bad. I'd estimate the muzzle velocity to duplicate that trajectory has got to be around 600 fps. I've no experience shooting deer with a 115 grain bullet going 600 fps, but I'm guessing that would make a pretty poor deer hunting load.

[Hobie]

Never mind, most of you are off topic.

You asked, we answered. Heck, you didn't provide all the specifics to begin with.

[w30wcf]

I came in a bit late, but if I was to try deer hunting with a .32-20 (aka .32 W.C.F.) I would use the original .32 W.C.F. bullet (Lyman 311008) made from pure lead (115 gr.) for some expansion, pushed to the original ballistics of 1,200 f.p.s.

w30wcf

[Nath]

Boys, remember my air rifle fox's in summer!?

Oh and a broadhead will kill further than 30yds

Nath.

[Hobie]

Boys, remember my air rifle fox's in summer!?

Oh and a broadhead will kill further than 30yds

Nath.

#1 lacking info I always err on the side of caution. #2 there was a lot of info missing. #3 the load didn't sound to be even up to standard factory specs. I.e. MY .32-20 and factory ammo has a flatter trajectory than that by a wide margin. #4 when we did answer he was pretty dismissive. That last is... well...

[Leverdude]

Imagine a .311 bullet going 600 FPS will act more like a field point than a broadhead myself.

[marlinman93]

Boys, remember my air rifle fox's in summer!?

Oh and a broadhead will kill further than 30yds

Nath.

Oh I sure know they will, but since I don't archery hunt often enough, they wont hit anything past 30 yds in my hands!

[rost495]

I'm still searching for the speed, too dark to run a chrono when I get home.

Y'all are not totally ignored. Yet of course I asked about trajectory figures in comparison to "standard" not a running commentary of how stupid it was to try to take a deer with it. FWIW I shoot enough and know the MV isn't high, due to lag time to hit the board at 100, but while its probably not 1500 fps, its sure not 600 fps either.

The trigger hasn't been pulled yet, but probably pretty close. After all, a 22 is more than enough for our deer anyway. Usually referred to derogatorily as dog deer by many. And further many more don't understand that when you are forced to hunt at a feeder, everything is very controlled, its easy to get a 10 yard shot or less if I wanted to. And very easy to pass this morning as there will be a chance everytime I go.

And the fact I understand hunting, having taken over 100 deer/hogs with a bow, I know all about right angles, timing, passing on the shot etc....

Granted all that was not posted, I simply said, this is what I shot, this is the ammo, I couldn't recall at the time as I tossed the box but it was precision cartridge company ammo.

I've asked to have the dies sent seperate, as I have everything else to load 100 xtps. But they were very remote and have to wait on UPS as there is moer factory ammo coming with the deal. I've asked that the dies be sent USPS next time they manage to go to town....

Anyway folks, I'm not totally ignoring. Just gets on my nerves when things that are not asked are hawked on time and again.

FWIW I agree, it may not be enough, but explain how we witnessed an 06 through the lungs be not enough one time too..... nothing is guaranteed, and generally speaking a hole in the lungs is a dead deer within a minute or two. Though I killed a good buck with my bow once that had a hole in his lungs for over 3 hours, he was smart enough to lay down right away and let it clot. 3 hours or more later we went looking for him and he got up and walked off, no blood to be seen on him etc..... and I had no clue, only to follow him shortly thereafter, and find he went 50 yards more and fell over once the clot broke free...

We'll see.

Jeff

[KirkD]

Well I got out my Hornady ballistic tables to try and get a better handle on what the muzzle velocity might be. The closest they got for that caliber is a 100 grain .312" diameter hollow point XTP. As I recall rost's bullet was 1" high at 50 yards and 14" low at 100. That is close to a 50 yard 'zero'. According to that table, a muzzle velocity of 850 fps zero'd at 50 yards will be 14.9" low at 100 yards. That works out to be almost a 15" drop between 50 and 100 yards, exactly what rost is experiencing.

Now a 115 grain bullet will not loose velocity as fast as a 100 grain bullet. So in order to drop the same amount, the 115 grain bullet will have to be going a bit slower to start with to match the ballistics of a lighter bullet, maybe closer to 800 fps at the muzzle. So I'd say that rost's bullet is travelling somewhere between 820 fps and 850 fps at the muzzle. If we use the upper limit of 850 fps, then the ballistics tables say it will be travelling 831 fps at 25 yards, 812 fps at 50 yards, and 778 fps at 100 yards.

Bottom Line: I'm estimating the bullet is doing no more than 850 fps at the muzzle, given the trajectory rost posted.

Hard to say how that will penetrate. I find it hard to believe that a loading company is loading the 32-20 that light. Rost45, was this the trajectory of just one bullet, or was it repeatable with a few of them. I'm wondering if there isn't something wrong with the ammo.

[rost495]

What I can tell you is we shot a few 5 shot groups at 25, then 2 groups at 50 while centering teh sights, and then 1 group at 100 just to see, not that I intend for the shots to even be 50 yards. But just in case.

My vision is not great with open sights. Give me an aperture rear and I could be sure. Used 6 oclock on a round bull which can give an error just depending, and depending on the fact that I was shooting without a rest.

Bottom line was the 100 top of group was about 8-10 inches low and bottom was about 15-16 low, by rough ruler.

Penetration... we are in what is termed an extreme drough. Bullet at 100 just for grins, penetrated the target board, which was soundproof 5/8 board, and then we let the lab dig for them and they were slightly expanded, probably about 40-45 cal compared to 45 slugs in my impact, and had made it appx 5 inches into very hard packed black land berm.

I'll let you know how it works hopefully after this weekend. And Precision is supposed to reply today, but I may have to call them again.

Again, I've shot my 45 acp handguns a LOT at 100 yards, the impact delay is nothing like that slow. Its much more like my MZ for elk thats around 1500, maybe just a tad slower.

[KirkD]

Rost45, from what you said, especially about the comparison between impact delay between your 45 ACP (roughly 800 fps) and your 32-20, the velocity of your 32-20 may be closer to the standard Winchester factory loading of 1,127 fps (I just checked my chronograph records to see what I actually got with factory ammo). There could be other sighting reasons, as you mentioned, as to why you got a low impact at 100 yards. 1,127 fps makes more sense for factory ammo.

I can say from my own experience that a 90 grain 32-20 hard cast bullet at 1,127 fps has a surprising amount of penetration ability. A 115 grain bullet will only be better. I've used the 90 grain at that velocity a lot on Groundhogs. Penetration is always complete. What did impress me, however, was that it would go right through a 5" green Ashleaf Maple, which is a lot harder to penetrate than flesh, as well as dried Cedar posts that were 12" thick. The Winchester 1896 catalogue lists the 32-20 (known as the 32 W.C.F.) as penetrating 6 & 1/2 pine boards, each one 7/8" thick with a velocity of 1,177 fps, but they used pure lead bullets, so expansion would have really slowed things down. My bullets were hard cast. For comparison, the 44 W.C.F. (44-40) penetrated 9 boards with 200 grain pure lead bullets.

Keep us posted on your results, bad or good.

[w30wcf]

Just for the record, Cowboy type .32-20 ammunition from Ten-X, Ultramax, and Goex runs close to original .32-20 ballistics.
Ten-X - 115 gr. / 823 f.p.s. pistol / rifle approx 1,123 f.p.s.
Ultramax - 115 gr. / 1,050 f.p.s.
Goex B.P. - 115 gr. / 1,125 f.p.s.(20") 1,275 f.p.s.(24")

w30wcf

[Old Savage]

A broadhead and a bullet are quite different. An arrow without a broadhead is more analogous.

[Nath]

Well I admire Rosts determination, as a grown man he knows his limits and it sounds like the bases are covered.
Say do them rounds sound like they are breaking the sound, is there a crack to them ? If they are close to standard guys do you get a little crack echoing around ?

OS, the trouble with field piles they tend to plug their own hole and stop any bleeding, a slow bullet can still cause bleeding.

Blessings.

Nath.

[rost495]

On mach or not, I've not been downrange at impact, only way I personally can tell for sure if its supersonic or not.

Penetration on our little deer is not anything I"m worried about. What does bother me is I generally like a little expansion, but may or may not get that. Of course I never really got it with 36 cal lead balls when shooting deer and they worked fine, but usually not a bang flop. That being said I have lost a deer with 45 and round balls, a 100gr charge. Lots of blood, both sides... one of those amazing things.... I have video on a tape somewhere... I personally think that while I let the spike lay up, a lion came along or a few coyotes and that was that... should not have been hard to find.

Happy Thanksgiving to ALL on this thread, I really thought it was going to turn bitter, I'd like to thank you for hanging in there, I may be bruised but I'm ok. The beatings were not that bad and I hope they were not worth the effort. Maybe we'll see. Now I"m hearing the big bucks are showing.... now gotta carry a 7x300wtby and my 3220 just in case....

Jeff

[Nath]

Things don't get bitter here, we are to old. Our fangs long since worn down
(And i'm one of the young'ns).

Shoot straight friend

Nath.

[Hobie]

Jeff,

I wish you the best of luck but I gotta tell you.... If you don't want my opinion, don't ask for it.

[rost495]

Hobie, I think you know this well, and forgive me as I'm a newbie here.... I wanted to know if the trajectory matched anything normal, not if I should or should not shoot, that got it OT quick. But its much appreciated, no one knows what I know etc...

The weekend, did not work out right, had one doe at 25 yards, did not like the shot. Then had one as close as 5 yards for a few minutes while we were prone under netting. Most would have popped a shot and I might should have but when I had a good shot she kept moving and I wasn't flexible enough with her walking to be comfortable so even though it should have been a cakewalk, it just didn't work out and I should have 100 HP bullets loaded before the next attempt. Fairly warm if they are accurate.

One would think that at 5 yards they couldn't miss or get away without a shot, but it happens and i'm not one to rush things.

I did have a head shot at about 30 yards, but I dont' want to do that I what that will do.... want to see what a heart lung will do.

Y'all can rest easier for next trip.

Jeff