Clipping pointy bullets on .45-70

[TackyDriver]

I have some Barnes 300 gr Flat base TSX bullets that I'd like to reload for my Marlin 1895. I read the article by Paco Kelly about clipping the noses of 30-30 spire points for use in tube mags. I'd like to try this on the 45-70s. I got Barnes bullets because of CA's condor law. I'm experimenting right now but hope to come up with some longer ranged "sleeper" rounds. What would be the minimum meplat size for safety in a tube mag? How do I chuck the bullets so that I don't nick the bullet sides but still keep things concentric? I tried searching for past posts about this but couldn't find anything. Any help will be appreciated.

[AJMD429]

What would happen if you loaded them backwards...? I've done that for .44 Mag just for the heck of it. I know there would be 'crimp groove' issues, but sounds like it would be easier to deal with that and find an OAL that would feed, vs. trimming all bullets.

[Ray]

Deleted.

[Ray]

Deleted.

[Leverluver]

The bullet in question is not made to function at the velocities you will be using. The hollow point opening is small and is meant for higher impact velocities. The Barnes bullet that was made for the 45-70 had a hollow point that looked like a 55 gallon barrel. They knew what they were doing and bullet WAS designed to open at 45-70 velocities. Once trimmed, the spitzer will be even worse on opening as the thickness of the jacket mouth is one of, if not the most important, parameters in the velocity which bullet will open. By trimming, you will be artificially thickening the jacket mouth.

Another poster had been working on this project and he was working on modifications to get the bullet to open. Maybe he will chime in or you can find the post with a search.

[Modoc ED]

Load them "pointy end" down (into the case). Works fine.

[Nath]

What I did with hornet to remove the tip from FMJ was make a die that supported the loaded round in the press but would allow the tip to just poke through and then I filed the tip off.
Quite easy really once I got the EN8 bar theaded.

Nath.

[jnyork]

I make bullets for my .33 WCF by using the 200 grain Hornady spire points. Run the bullet up in a 30-30 trim die using a piece of dowel on top of the press ram. Nick the end off with a coarse file, finish with a finer file. Only takes a few seconds. Works great.

[TackyDriver]

Thank you all for your replies. I'm new here and appreciate the helpfulness given to a newb. Leverluver, your point is well taken about bullet expansion. I'm hoping to load for 300 gr Buffalo Bore type velocities. No doubt, the bullets I'm messing with were meant for 458 Win Mags or some such. Ultimately the end use would be for hunting and maybe win a few bets. At this stage I'm just looking for ballistic and accuracy performance. If the gain doesn't justify the trouble, then it won't be worth worrying about terminal performance.

Ray, you helped me come up with a good idea. I can use a spent case with the rim cut off to protect the bullet from the chuck jaws. It'll also work as a hand hold because I have the manual dexterity of a crowbar. At this point I want to use my drill press as a vertical lathe because this is a one off project for now. If the idea works, I like Nath and jnyork's idea with the reloading trim dies.

As far as loading them pointy end down, that will work in a pinch, but Barnes does make flat nose bullets that work as is. The point of the whole idea is to have a bullet with better aerodynamics than the usual FN bullets. Interstingly, the Navy did a study in the '50s on flat nosed torpedo shapes. The flat nose was necessary to allow a window for the sonar in the nose of the torp. They found that as long as there was a smooth transition from the flat sonar window to what was left of the ogive, drag was low enough to not massively affect performance. Just look at a picture of a Mark 48 torpedo to see what I mean.

As I said, the point was to see if having a slightly longer ogive would improve longer range performance and still be safe in a tube mag. I've had lots of fun with Hornady's LeverEvolutions but they're made with lead. I know those polymer tips are proprietary, but has anyone ever tried to make a home brewed version to stick on the end of a flat nose?

[Leverluver]

There are a few other things to consider. One, where can you crimp? You will have little success (or break something) trying to LFC into a smooth monolithic shank. That only leaves you the groove in the shank and by the time you seat that out where you can crimp in AND you have shortened the nose to where the whole cartridge can work through the action, the bullet will wind up no more "ballistically efficient" than the one intended for the 45-70 in the first place, AND it won't open for beans, not even at max velocities. AND, there is some parallel section of the bullet that is full caliber ahead of the groove and that may not even allow chambering (due to hitting the chamber throat) in the Marlin if crimped in the groove, no matter what the nose looks like (it wouldn't in a Browning 86). I have fired thousands of rounds in terminal tests into gelatin in calibers from .264 through .470 Nitro. It will be a fun project to while away your time but, believe me, unmodified (drill a larger hole along with other modifications) it will be a dismal failure as a hunting bullet.

The Hornady bullet has a steep taper and even they had to shorten the case to get it to work (you might try that with your experiment ). Plus, ever wonder why they just don't come out and tell you what the BC of the Hornady bullets is? Because it sucks. Even if you take their numbers, (highly suspect) the BC calculates out to .230. Don't believe me, several others (Chuck Hawks for one) have some up with the same number. I know you can't use cast but nearly any cast 350FP is that good and virtually every 400 grain FP bullet is better than that.

For those modifying lead nose bullets to flat point, it an entirely different animal. Cutting or flattening the lead tip down to the jacket mouth has no detrimental affect on the terminal performance of the bullet. IF, you don't cut into the factory jacket mouth and you can get it short enough to work through the action, you are good to go as you really haven't changed anything.

[Mike D.]

The simplest method is to use the Barnes .458 300 Grain TSX bullet. It is made for the .45 cal rifles and is more than sufficient for any game in CA. Despite being a bit pricey, they are all that I use in San Benito Co.

[Modoc ED]

Load them "pointy end" down (into the case). Works fine.

The reason I brought that up is that there is a guy who shoots 150gr bullets out of both his .30-06s and .30-30s. In order to save money he buys all the same kind of bullets and loads the .30-06s pointy end up and the .30-30s pointy end down. He says it works great.

He's not the only one I've heard of doing this.

[TackyDriver]

Leverluver, I defer to your obvious experience. The nice thing about forums such as these is that I can learn from others instead of going it alone and reinventing the wheel. More later. My digital caliper needs a new battery. Live by the black box, die by the black box.

Modoc ED, reversing the bullets as needed sounds like a great idea. Does your friend have to worry about gal blow by in the reversed bullets?

[Rusty]

...or you could load them as intended and only load one in the chamber and one in the magazine.