Bore too clean?

[Slick13]

I picked up a new bore cleaner recently, called Patch Out. I've used it on several of my rifles, and was suprised at how dirty my "clean" rifles were. Worst offender was my 03A3, I couldn't believe how much jacket fouling came out it (or how much pitting became appearant after the gun was cleaned). Anyways, the past two times I've shot my .25-35 (after cleaning it with Patch Out), first shot has been about a foot high at 50 yards, walks down the target over two or three more shots, and settles in by the fourth or fifth shot. Last night I took my new .30-06 out and at 25 yards, first shot was off the paper, but from the dirt flying I said "that's high". Picked a spot and held lower, and got onto paper. I figure that second shot was about 18" high! Gun settled down after a couple more shots and was about an inch below the cross hairs at 25 yards when all was said and done. When I mentioned this to a friend his feeling was that the Patch Out was getting the gun too clean, deconditioning it, and to stop using that product unless I want to get a gun 100% clean before oiling it up and putting it away for months. So, that's what I plan on doing.

Anyone else seen similiar behavior from a firearm?

~Michael

[TedH]

I've seen some change in POI, but never as drastic as you have seen.

[jnyork]

Are you thoroughly cleaning out the oil in the bore before you shoot??

[Slick13]

Are you thoroughly cleaning out the oil in the bore before you shoot??

Yep!

~Michael

[Slick13]

Are you thoroughly cleaning out the oil in the bore before you shoot??

Yep!

~Michael

I must not be getting it all out. I spoke with the company that makes Patch Out and the first thing they asked me was "are you oiling the barrel after cleaning it?" "Yes...." They said not to, that the Patch Out will protect the barrel from rust and corrosion, and the reason the gun is shooting high is because the bullet is basically hydroplaning over the oil rather than catching the rifling. Once the oil is burnt out, then gun is settling down.

~Michael

[PaperPatch]

I've never seen that myself...and likely haven't gotten any of my barrels as clean as yours.

Of interest here, I recall an article many years ago written by Bob Milek. In it, he tested the then new Foul Out product which uses mild electricity to remove copper and lead from the barrel. A reverse electro-plating method it was.

He fired the test-rifle for groups before and after treatment....and discovered that the fouled (normal cleaning with #9 and patches) barrel shot tighter groups than the squeaky clean one. I can't recall any particulars beyond that...and took away the lesson that; too much of anything (clean or dirty) is not always good for accuracy.

Kind of a life prophecy thing eh?

[Cliff]

Just remember which rifle or handgun fires where when super cleaned. fire necessary fouling shots prior to hunting or target work. If I remember right I think Elmer Keith mentioned he liked to finish his gun cleaning with a bore wipe of Hoppes #9. He claimed it would shoot to original point of aim. Then again I could be wrong or maybe he mentioned wiping down the bore with a dry patch prior to shooting to remove the Hoppes. Anyway it was long ago. But fouling shots were common in a lot of match shooting. Good Luck.

[Charles]

Go do it again and see what happens. I don't think a couple of shots are enough to draw any conclusions. I am prone to look for some o factor other than the clean bore. I have been shooting centerfire rifles for 50 years and I do love a clean bore. To be certain the first round or two from a clean bore will be out of the group, but never more than an inch or two at the most.

[greasy dan]

I used to do Competition bench-rest shooting with my Dad, every weekend for a couple years. One thing we learned from shooting the same ammo all the time... If we really cleaned the barrel, it would take 5 to 10 shots to get the rifle to Zero in. We learned from much practice that it was better to just clean the barrel with a plastic-brissle brush at home after the day's match. No Hoppes, no oil. Next time, usually next weekend... it only required 3 to 5 shots to Zero in on-target. We would thoroughly clean the rifle each season.
My 2-cents.

[kimwcook]

Many countersniper rifles take a few fouling shots to settle down after cleaning. After shooting, the rifle would get cleaned but shot the requisite number of times to assure POI was centered and left dirty so the cold shot would hit where it was supposed to. My Remington PSP 700 would shoot about 1/4" high and left of center at 100 yds. with a squeeky clean barrel. Not that far off.

[marlinman93]

I'm a bit shocked that this product would have that drastic of an effect. I've experienced some minor changes after cleaning, and even a couple inches after reomving the stocks from a gun to clean. I've never heard of any product, or cleaning that could result in the differences your gun is doing.
I personally would not only stop using the product, I'd quit using it again, ever! This stuff could do permanent damage to your gun's bore with that kind of results.

[Wrangler John]

From the Shilen Barrel website:

"We get this question many times and have a great deal of difficulty helping some customers understand that a rifle barrel does not have to be spotless to shoot great. Many times more harm than good is done in trying to get it that way." . . . "The same thing happens in a rifle barrel on a microscopic level. Removing this small trace of copper puts you right back to square one. The next bullet that crosses that area will, again, leave a small trace of copper. Similar to patching a pothole. All successful benchrest shooters shoot one or more "fouler" shots down the barrel before going to the record target. This is not to warm up the barrel. They are resurfacing it on the inside. Benchrest shooters clean between relays to get the powder fowling out, not the copper. However, since copper usually comes out with the powder, they know that it must be replaced to get "back in the groove". I've had shooters tell me they "cleaned their rifle for 3 hours to get all the copper out of it." Their next statement is almost invariably that they had to shoot 4-5 rounds through it just to get it back to "shooting" again. This tells me that in order for the rifle to shoot well again, they had to replace the copper they worked so diligently to remove."

So there you have it from one of the better barrel makers. Of course, the highly lapped premium barrel will foul much less than a normal factory barrel, and some really foul to excess (a particular Model 70 and Browning M-71 come to mind) and one really has no choice when they copper foul excessively, especially if it does so only in one or two grooves, other than lap them or replace the barrel.

[6pt-sika]

I was ung up on super accuracy with some factory bolt action rifles a few years back .

Most had stainless heavy barrels and most shot wel out of the box .

Anyway I got on this kick about using Sweets 7.62 . That stuff would get all the copper out of every nook and cranny in those barrels . And accuracy would lessen .

I talked with a couple people in the barrel industry and they both told me the same thing . With a factory barrel you can enhance accuracy sometimes by letting the copper fill in the tool marks etc inside a stainless barrel . And they also told me unless the rifle has gone down the crapper don't worry about total copper removal .

I used to worry about barrel break in on new factory rifles . These same guys told me they loved to hear people talk about "breaking in" a barrel . Because it was just that much sooner that they could sell them a new one . Now of course they were making reference to custom barrels but I kinda see it the same way . Now when I get a new rifle be it bolt or lever I start shooting 3 shot groups and clean after a few groups and repeat this process a couple times the first time at the range . Then it gets cleaned when I think it needs or deserves it !

Oh yeah I haven't used any of the Super Duper copper cleaning solvents in a number of years now . But I still keep a bottle or two just in case

[Hobie]

I think that the only time to totally remove the copper is when you want to replace it with lead. When shooting cast bullets, a complete cleaning of jacketed bullet fouling seems beneficial. I'm not otherwise so dedicated to cleaning of the bore but am to cleaning the action. Indeed everything else needs to be clean.

PS - not talking black powder or corrosive primers here. That must be cleaned out.

[Slick13]

Are you thoroughly cleaning out the oil in the bore before you shoot??

Yep!

~Michael

I must not be getting it all out. I spoke with the company that makes Patch Out and the first thing they asked me was "are you oiling the barrel after cleaning it?" "Yes...." They said not to, that the Patch Out will protect the barrel from rust and corrosion, and the reason the gun is shooting high is because the bullet is basically hydroplaning over the oil rather than catching the rifling. Once the oil is burnt out, then gun is settling down.

~Michael

Went home last night, cleaned all the oil out of my .30-06's bore, then cleaned it again with Patch Out, then went to the range. Gun shot where it did at the end of Wednesday's trip to the range (slightly low and to the right, not 18" high). So, I guess putting oil in the bore after cleaning with Patch Out was the culprit, not too clean of a bore.

~Michael

[new pig hunter]

I'm a firm believer in the "dirty barrel" club.

When my Marlin 375 barrel was bright and shiny, the first shot was elsewhere. The next few shots were closer to reality.

Nowadays, I don't clean the Marlin anymore ..... and when I next shoot I'm right on target, each bullet hole (at 50 yards) overlapping the next.

here's the threads:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... 41&p=75959

Cheers,

Carl

[Chuck 100 yd]

In the target below I cleaned the barrel after every ten shots. The next shot out of the barrel was at the next target, for group. 50 consecutive shots for group with the barrel cleaned after each 10 shots. 100yd.
As you can see, a clean barrel can shoot.



The first 5 shot group fired after barrel break in( shoot and clean for 10 shots) this group was with brass not yet fire formed. 100yd.


I think the problem was oil in the bore. not that it was too clean. I clean my rifles bore as clean as i can get it and they shoot just fine.