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You'll note the Church doesn't say who to vote for or against. Like all churches, they are concerned about the government coming down on them for "preaching politics from the pulpit". What hogwash! Black churches can endorse Obama to no end, but let a mostly white church support conservatives or conservative causes and they get attacked ruthlessly.
If I hear Joe Biden say "my Catholic faith", "my Catholic upbringing", or "Catholic social doctrine" one more time I think I will bust every TV in the house. Like all supposed-Catholic Democrat politicians he ignores some of the most serious concerns of the faithful.
There is no such thing as a "pro-choice" Catholic - period. I don't agree with everything from the Church - or organized religion for that point. I am at the absolute opposite extreme compared to the Church's stand on executing murders and rapists, gun control, proactive defensive wars, economics and many other issues. Many disagree on these points in and out of the Church. However, there are 5 non-negotiable issues for Catholics (and most devoted Christians) where you can't deviate from the Church's stance and still be in good standing:
Abortion
Ethunasia
Embryonic stem cell research
Human cloning
Gay marriage
These are take it or leave it issues. I know Biden, Kerry, Kennedy and several other supposed "practicing Catholics" support at least three of these tooth and nail (abortion, embryonic stem cell research and gay marriage). What I don't understand is why any priest would offer these idiots communion. They should simply bar these morons from church altogether. Doing so is putting their money where their mouths are, and ends giving these lying sacks of excement the cover their "church attendance" supposedly gives them.
A thought provoking video. I too am at odds with some organised religion but there is no point in voting for a politician just because he goes to the same church, when all he goes there for is to get out of the rain!
By the way PM sent.
Whatever you do always give 100%........... unless you are donating blood.
Voting for a person because they share the same religious denomination as you do, but otherwise don't share any of your personal values and views, makes about as much since as voting for someone just because they happen to share the same skin color...
Hmmm, well that argument is not going to work over here either...
GK - no PM in the inbox. Did you send it? Or is this about those "evil" conservative bumper stickers I sent you? If so, I got that one!!! I'm just slow in replying!
Amen Ysabel. If the thought of an unborn child(some up to 9 months) being poisoned to death in salt solution, suctioned out body part by body part, or being killed by having his/her brain extracted and skull collapsed after being partially delivered, does not disturb us to the extreme, we have gone terribily wrong in our society. To almost a half of our country this is a non issue! My God. Politicians who ignore the Unborn or celebrate "Choice"(for the mother only) are not in it for helping humanity but they are in it for themselves and "their kind": fellow liberals, women, blacks, educators....etc. That excludes Obama, Hillary and all of their Ilk from even momentary consideration. 50 million babies gone in this country alone, and counting. Yes, it's equally important that we care for the mothers and take every chance to preserve their lives as well. My mother carried me to full term in the throws of Uterine Cancer so I have thought about all sides of this very much. The order was written for my abortion by Army doctors in Puerto Rico, and when my mother was sent to another clinic, the orders were lost for the proceedure. My mom considered this "a sign" that she wasn't supposed to do it and she never told the next Army doctor about her Cancer. Upon my birth they realized that the the parts that held me in the womb were eaten up and that neither I nor she should have actually still been alive at that point. She's still kickin and so am I. Men have one plan, and The Lord has another! In this case He used good old Army beauracracy to bring about my arrival, and used it again 17 years later to build my character, but that's a different story.
PS: as long as we keep teaching our kids that we are only animals like all the other animals and that human kind has become a blight on the earth, none of this will change. I believe many of us need to homeschool or get our kids out of public education. We need to get them to Church and overall, to THINK CRITITCALLY once again and not blindly swallow what is handed to them by educators.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
You can preach politics all you want from the pulpit and such is fully protected by the 1st. Amendment. However you can't do so and maintain your tax exempt status as a church. You will become a political organization in the eyes of the IRS. Makes sense to me.
I never preached poltics, but not for the above reason. I have heard every political position on earth attributed to either Christ or the Bible. Many of these positions were diametricaly opposed to one another. Somebody has to be wrong as Christ is not Schitzo.
I always figured that just maybe, I could be the fellow who had it wrong, and didn't want to have to answer to God for preaching "good views" instead of "Good News".
Preaching the Good News and have people accept it is for sure the real way to stop abortion, rather than yelling back and forth with the Left. The latter has not worked for me either. Not taking a stand for the unborn is a sure recipe for disaster as well though...for them and our society. One doesn't have to endorse a candidate or party from the pulpit to say that the killing the unborn is wrong. I don't see how one could goof up Biblically if you work to preserve the life that God has made...to have compassion on both mother and unborn child. Scripture is clearly on the side of life and one can have confidence in that. Just another .02 and I don't want to sound like I'm preaching at folks. I just have an inability to hold my tongue most of the time!
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
I'm not catholic but I've known quite a few over the years. It always seemed odd to me why the Catholic church doesn't take people like Kerry and Kennedy who say they are such "good" Catholics and then turn around and support everything connected with abortion and ex-communicate them. Seems to me that if the church is going to take a stand, then they should take the stand instead of just talking about it.
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
Isiah 55:8&9
It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled.
Well Boys,
I'm pro-choice and pro-life. The woman has the choice of whether or not to get in the bed. After that, it's pro-life all the way.
ole pizen slinger
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
Charles wrote:You can preach politics all you want from the pulpit and such is fully protected by the 1st. Amendment. However you can't do so and maintain your tax exempt status as a church.
If we only had the "FairTax" instead of the stupid "income" tax, such things wouldn't be an issue, we wouldn't have to fill out tax forms every year, and even for businesses, there would be no need to track and 'prove' whatever was a business expense vs. personal expense, or what kind of 'schedule' or 'deduction' to use...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
I think you answered your own question about why the priest does not run them off. MONEY. The love of which is the root of all evil I might add. Priest or layman, a sin is a sin.
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are
willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." - John F. Kennedy
Rusty wrote:I'm not catholic but I've known quite a few over the years. It always seemed odd to me why the Catholic church doesn't take people like Kerry and Kennedy who say they are such "good" Catholics and then turn around and support everything connected with abortion and ex-communicate them. Seems to me that if the church is going to take a stand, then they should take the stand instead of just talking about it.
Because the church is a business, as are most organized religions. It is not that they aren't filled will geniuine Christians devoted to God, but rather, that is the nature of man especially when they group together.
AJMD429 wrote:If we only had the "FairTax" instead of the stupid "income" tax, such things wouldn't be an issue, we wouldn't have to fill out tax forms every year, and even for businesses, there would be no need to track and 'prove' whatever was a business expense vs. personal expense, or what kind of 'schedule' or 'deduction' to use...
AMEN BROTHER!!!
Sincerely,
bogie
Sadly, "Political Correctness" is the most powerful religion in America, and it has ruined our society.
I'm not sure you are right to say you can't be a pro-choice catholic. You certainly can't be pro-abortion. Biden is making a distinction between what he claims to believe, anti-abortion, and whether the government should decide the issue for everyone who doesn't share his beliefs.
As an individual, I don't believe i have the right to be pro choice and catholic, because the church would rule out that personl choice for me as you say. But if I were a politician where I have the power to vote to rule out everyone's choice, isn't that different?
To go further, can a catholic be a democratic (small d) politician, or should he only support political organizations than enforce catholic views at the muzzle of a gun, or use torture, as back in the inquisition. I don't see how pro-choice is different than many conservative positions that say maters should be left in the hands of the individual and not be imposed by governments.
I'm anti abortion, and I know these weasel arguments are used to kill millions of kids so the stakes are really high. Maybe it would all be clear if I had the bandwidth to see the clip.
I think most people here know that I am personally opposed to abortion and do all I personallycan to educate, cajole and convince others that that position is the most valid one.
BUT... Because I am 10000% dead against Government Controll/Oppression I MUST be politically "pro choice"... just as I am "pro choice" on RKBA. Choose to own a gun or not - but keep the Govt out of it.
If you really stop to think about it, the "Government Control"/"Anti-Abortion" position, if carried out to its horrifying logical extreme GUARANTEES that the Government will/must 100% take over Health Care AND develop a whole extra bureaucracy or three.
Don't think so? I tried the Thought Experiment of comparing the "Abortion Debate" to the RKBA debate in how RKBA is being "handled" by the Gooberment.
So, we begin with a Law that simply says:
“All abortions anywhere within the United States, their territories, on US military bases overseas, or on American ships at sea shall be Illegal and punishable by Law.”
Simple yes?
So where's the rest of it?
That's right, the rest of it.
If you seek to outlaw abortions, you're going to have to add an enforcement clause to this legislation, aren't you? And you may even have to create a whole new federal bureaucracy to do the enforcing. I certainly can't imagine any existing law enforcement agency that I'd care to see doing it, can you?
Think about it. Using current agencies each and every miscarriage, however tragic, innocent, or accidental, will have to be investigated like a homicide, with all of the invasions of privacy and violations of rights any homicide investigation entails. And there's plenty of room in there for another kind of miscarriage—a miscarriage of justice. If a woman can be shown to have taken one vitamin pill too few—or one vitamin pill too many—when she was pregnant, some ambitious prosecutor will make her life even more miserable than it is, by trying to nail her for manslaughter.
So of course there'll have to be an Agency and Regulations that go along with the law and sustain it. To begin with, I suppose you realize that you'll have to insist on mandatory monthly pregnancy testing for every female in the country, from puberty to menopause. There will be no other way to determine who is or is not pregnant.
I don't know what it'll cost, but it's going to be horrendously expensive—and extremely unpopular. Maybe you'll want to require women to show up once a month down at the local offices of the... well let's call it the 'Pregnancy Enforcement Administration'. Or maybe you can just issue them a home pregnancy test kit every month and they can use it and send in the results—although can you trust them to be that honest? You'll also have to accept the fact that you'll be creating a whole new underground market for false test results.
All pregnancies, of course, will have to be registered immediately with the PEA, and every pregnant woman in the country will be required to undergo frequent psychological evaluation to determine whether she's become an abortion risk during the past couple of weeks. And of course she'll have to report for regular compulsory physical examinations to make sure she and the baby remain healthy. (And again, here I thought those most of those opposed to abortion were against socialized medicine…)
Naturally the mother-to-be will be criminally prosecuted if she drinks or smokes while pregnant, or exposes herself or her baby to secondhand smoke or to any other politically incorrect influence—perhaps even if she eats too little or too much of the currently right or wrong thing. It will probably be called 'unborn child abuse'.
Again, how can you outlaw a thing without taking steps to make sure that people don't do it? Even if you don't write those provisions into your bill, others who come along later will try to make political hay of their own by tightening up all the 'loopholes' that you left for them so thoughtfully.
How about Travel? Before the Roe vs. Wade decision, something like 50,000 women a year were dying from botched abortions of one kind or another, either self-inflicted, or at the hands of some back-alley butcher. What that tells us is that, whatever the law may decree, women will still take huge risks to have an abortion. If Abortion is so bad, you don't want American women skulking off to Canada or Mexico to get their abortions, do you? So where's the provision for physical examinations at the borders to detect pregnancies leaving the country, or terminated pregnancies coming back in?
Here's another example: a woman who's obviously pregnant—involuntarily—or has a history of attempted abortions, or who happens to fail a psychological evaluation will have to be subjected to various kinds of physical restraint, ranging from house arrest with an electronic anklet to keep tabs on her whereabouts, to the local jail where she can be watched, to a federal prison, to forced hospitalization, to a padded cell in some lunatic asylum, to a straitjacket. She might even be forcibly sedated—turned into some kind of zombie—for the term of her pregnancy.
Of course you'll have to outlaw all wire coat hangers, knitting needles, chopsticks over a certain length, or anything else that can be used to induce a self-abortion. Maybe registering these items and licensing their owners will be enough. Although in that case, the coat hangers, knitting needles, and chopsticks will all have to have serial numbers.
Any contact between a woman and her health providers will naturally be suspect. If she goes to her doctor, even to have an ingrown toenail removed, they'll have to be ready to prove they weren't planning an abortion, possibly by recording every word they say together. If she discuss the weather for too long with her pharmacist at the drugstore, they'll be subject to interrogation by PEA... greenshirts... who'll want to know if what they talked about was RU486.
Of course, the Democrats will fight this legislation tooth and nail, but once it gets passed, you can count on that party to exploit it, and use it as a springboard to push through little items like the parental licensing laws they've wanted at least since the Clinton Administration.
When that happens, when couples fail to qualify for a government license—maybe because they own guns, or drive an SUV, or smoke, or like to barbecue red meat—their unlicensed kids will be seized by the state and raised in the crèches socialists are so fond of.
Think it can't happen here? Folks probably thought Prohibition couldn't happen. But a million marching morons—well-meaning do-gooders and busybodies—couldn't be wrong, could they? Never mind that they were screwing people's lives up beyond all recognition. Never mind that it brought us the first turf wars, drive-by shootings, poisoned booze, cement overshoes, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. Never mind that, once it was repealed, the enforcement boys still needed their jobs, so we got the war on guns, the war on drugs, and eventually, the war on tobacco.
If you outlaw abortion, you'll have to pay a price for seeing your convictions into the law: you're going to have to live with the unintended consequences as well as those you had in mind because you can't claim to outlaw abortion without it.
You'll be enslaving no less than half the population. It will create a new army of armed and armored nannies. It will devour your wives, your sisters, your daughters, and your granddaughters. It will destroy all that's left of what America was supposed to be about. But you'll have made your point, you will have passed your law.
You want Government Run Universal Healthcare? Outlaw Abortion.
Do you really trust that the people who run the BATFE, the IRS and the DEA to NOT take some, or all, of the steps outlined?
Outlaw abortion, and—no matter what anybody hopes or thinks or fears—the Country's headed right into the black abyss of totalitarianism.
It is OUR job to argue abortions out of existence... NOT the Government's.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
I am ALWAYS for the individual having the power to decide their life and the government - at all levels - staying the heck out of it. There is only one time the government needs to intervene and that is when the individual pursuit of one's freedoms and rights crossing or denies another individual's same rights and freedoms. That is when the law adjucates the correct resolution.
So then, why am I not pro-choice? Because two people are involved, and one never has a say. My bet is that 99.9% of babies would prefer to see the world if given the option.
This is the secular argument, but very valid, to oppose abortion. Religiously, I just don't see how there can be an argument at all. A "pro-life" politician isn't pushing their personal or religious beliefs on anyone - they are simply trying to protect all members of society equally - which is what they are supposed to do.
Last edited by Ysabel Kid on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ysabel Kid wrote:I am ALWAYS for the individual having the power to decide their life and the government - at all levels - staying the heck out of it. There is only one time the government needs to intervene and that is when the individual pursuit of one's freedoms and rights crossing or denies another individual's same rights and freedoms. That is when the law adjucates the correct resolution.
So then, why am I not pro-choice? Because two people are involved, and one never has a say. My bet is that 99.9% of babies would prefer to see the world if given the option.
This is the secular argument, but very valid, to oppose abortion. Religiously, I just don't see how there are be an argument at all. A "pro-life" politician isn't pushing their personal or religious beliefs on anyone - they are simply trying to protect all members of society equally - which is what they are supposed to do.
Bingo!
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Yep - abortion is merely a specific type of homicide. There IS such a thing as 'justifiable homicide' - but only in such circumstances as where there is one or more lives which are likely saved as a result of the one taken, and where no other likely solution is available. That would very rarely apply to abortion. Abortion isn't the 'choice' - aside from rape, the 'choice' was made when the woman had intercourse.
Of course - how many times have you heard an exasperated mom tell one of her kids "I brought you IN to this world, and I can take you OUT...!"
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws "first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
But then AJ, how do we prevent the scenerio where every miscarriage MUST be treated as a potential homicide? You know as well (better) than I that there are many ways to induce a miscarriage - not just going to the butcher known as an abortionist. Can you imagine the additional trauma of going through a murder investigation - as the accused (or Dr.) after the loss of a WANTED baby?
How do we prevent the scenerios I described? How do we keep the Socialists from using an absolute ban on abortion as THE entre' to Socialized Medicine &/or requiring Licenses to have children?
Abortions are Evil - but Government is and always be MORE evil because Power & Corruption are essential for its existence.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
AJMD429 wrote: Of course - how many times have you heard an exasperated mom tell one of her kids "I brought you IN to this world, and I can take you OUT...!"
Hmmm, when I was growing up? A couple times... a day!
kmittleman wrote:Amen to that. But none of this stuff is ever about objective truths. They're about people's feelings.
-Kevin
Respectfully, I don't agree at all. It's very easy to see on an ultra sound that the baby is alive, with beating heart, able to feel pain, hear and respond to his/her environment. That's just the scientific evidence which is undeniable. The pain response of an unborn child to their being killed has also been documented(not something that planned parenthood wants you to see). That it happens to fully formed infants who are capable of life out of the womb, is undeniable. Hard facts are right there in plain view, though about 1/2 of the country will not look or consider it.
That a human life is sacred, created by God, is an objective fact to many as well, though not all have this viewpoint. It has becomes much more of fact to me the longer I live, the more I experience and learn, and the more I stare into the eyes of my children. The weight of the evidence for it is vast, but again one has to keep the brain and heart open to see it as objective fact. Many will not consider something that they cannot see and measure. Just my .02 and others will no doubt disagree.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
While driving across southern MN & SD last weekend I saw a bunch of Anti-Abortion billboards - which I found rather silly.
Nobody out there HAS abortions. Those signs are totally preaching to the choir and are an utter waste of resources/finances that can/should be used to combat abortion where it happens... in the Cities.
See, this whole debate is identical in the converse to the Gun Debate. Rural folks have guns and Urban folks don't like them. Therefore the Urban folks want to "ban" what they find offensive... just like they tried with Prohibition.
Contrarily, Rural folks seeall the abortions going on in the overpopulated bungholes known as Cities and want to "ban" the pernicious practice of Abortion.
BOTH desires, as with Prohibition before it and the current "War on Drugs" demand no less than the creation and extention of heavily armed bureacracies to "enFORCE" the will of one group on the other.
I honestly don't understand why people who recognise how pernicious the overarching authority of the Gooberment has become in regards to Guns and will be when applied to "Universal Healthcare" - not to mention the Socialization of Home Ownership - can apparantly willfully ignore the abuses of power that are as certain as govennment corruption to occur if abortion is banned/becomes the legal equivelent of murder.
A child in the womb is in GOD's hands - not man's. It's up to us to teach - not convert by the sword.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
Old Ironsights wrote:
A child in the womb is in GOD's hands - not man's. It's up to us to teach - not convert by the sword.
Exactly, which is why we should not actively kill them. The babies are the ones getting converted by the sword, whether they like it or not.
I understand the sentiment. But how are you going to stop it? Contrary to popular belief, it was happening before when it was "illegal" and will happen if it is make "illegal" again.
What level of Imposition of Government Force are you willing to accept to see it happen?
If you make a "law" but have no enforcement mechanisim, what good is it? Even if you DO "enforce" it a'la BATFE/DEA we know how effective those "laws" have been.
How about somthing a LOT more practical? How about fighting toot and nail to get the Government TOTALLY out of the picture?
Defund Abortion Utterly. No Physician Reimbursement. No Payouts to Planned Parenthood. Nothing. Not a penny. Insurance already doesn't cover it. Why bring extra guns and taxes into the picture by making it a "law" that will require unimaginable levels of medical intrusion and law enforcement?
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
I understand what you're saying too O.I. and your ideas offer good food for thought as to the ramifications of such a law. Common sense must reign in whaterver final law we put in place, one which doesn't allow state or federal agencies to prosecute folks willy nilly. I know abortion has and always will happen, especially world wide where girls are not valued like boys and they are killed at all stages. It's not going away but we can certainly in our own country stop most of the nearly 1 million that happen each year. At this point, it is the Industry of abortion that must be stopped, and the Party that holds up Roe. V. Wade like it's the Holy Grail of freedom, rather than a death sentence for millions of Americans.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Since when has common sense ever reigned when it comes to Federal Law...?
"Common Sense Gun Lawsl"...
The change must come from the heart and head, not the barrel of a gun (government).
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
Your keying off my words "common sense" and making the connection that my idea of "common sense" abortion laws would be the same as "common sense" firearms laws proposed by the Left. If you think about it a bit more, I'm sure you'll see that there is no comparison. The former is about truly protecting people from murder (unborn children don't get murdered and mothers are not unfairly or friviously prosecuted) while the latter is a catch phrase designed by people who really want to take your guns away and ability to resist Tyranny, and is deceptive. The same words don't imply the same intentions or root motivations. We can't live in a society where a word makes you guilty by association. We have to have common sense and think critically rather than fall for the same traps the Liberals use. They use words to trap in the same fashion by implying erroneous intent... to prove their cause.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Your keying off my words "common sense" and making the connection that my idea of "common sense" abortion laws would be the same as "common sense" firearms laws proposed by the Left.
Of course I am. Government is Government. All "laws" need an enforcement mechanisim or they are pointless acts of political posturing.
If you think about it a bit more, I'm sure you'll see that there is no comparison. The former is about truly protecting people from murder (unborn children don't get murdered and mothers are not unfairly or friviously prosecuted) while the latter is a catch phrase designed by people who really want to take your guns away and ability to resist Tyranny, and is deceptive.
Explain please. No, mothers are not "unfairly or friviously prosecuted", but that doesn't mean they won't be. It doesn't mean that the regulatory requirements of such a law wouldn't lead directly to the "Childbirth Licenses" the Left has long desired. It is NOT a catch phrase whe it CAN mean the exact same thing. Just because YOU have pure motives doesn't mean the people implementing such law will have pure motives.
The same words don't imply the same intentions or root motivations. We can't live in a society where a word makes you guilty by association.
Explain please. I don't get your meaning.
We have to have common sense and think critically rather than fall for the same traps the Liberals use. They use words to trap in the same fashion by implying erroneous intent... to prove their cause.
As I said, intent (motive) is irrelevant when it comes to government implementation. The road to Hell and all that.
There was "good intent" in the idea of Prohibition. Look at the Implementation. Ditto the "War on Drugs" &/or the "War on Poverty" or Social Security or NFA '32 or GCA '68 or any number of Enviornmental Laws/Regulations, or, or, or...
If you are going to make Abortion the Legal Equivelent of Murder then ALL Prenatal Deaths MUST be investigated by Law Enforcement. All of them. As with all non-monitored (hospital/nursing home/hospice) deaths there MUST be an investigation. And that means, barring a corpse showing trauma, a grieving mother will have to PROVE that she didn't do anything intentional to cause a miscarriage, and/or PROVE that she wasn't being reckless in her personal habits.
That is the very real danger of assigning the legal term "murder" to abortion.
So that gets us back to how to deal with it. You can't call it Murder in the legal sense without ascribing all of the prosecutorial rules and sublevels of inditement that goes with it.
How can such a Law be Enforced? Yeah, you eliminate the Doctor angle and maybe 60% of Planned Parenthood's business, but then Abortion goes back to being a "secret" thing that you can't really address head on... unless you are willing to monitor pregnancies & porsecute/incarcerate women wo fail to come to Term?
How can we, as opponents of abortion, preach/teach against somthing that will go underground? Abortifacients are easily researched. Many have been known of for literally thousands of years... even with Church Suppression. How much Information are WE willing to try to suppress? We know how effective book burnings were... not at all.
Abortion isn't simply the act of killing a baby, it is a mindset and worldview. Out in the open as it is we can see it and teach/preach to it. We can argue against it. We can provide alternatives to those considering it. But once it is "illegal" that all stops because, unlike drugs or booze, or even "regular" Murder or Property crime, abortion isn't a visible or social act. It is the extention of unchaste lifestyles... and we know how well preaching/legislating against THAT invisible sin works. Once abortion is illegal, you will never again be able to save the life of a baby by arguing to disuade the mother - because you will never know she wants to do it.
Anyway, I've got to go & pick up the wife. We can continue this later.
Continuing:
This is not a fight that is winnable through legislation. This is about making changes in souls.
IMO if we are not "winning" the abortion debate it's because we are more inclined to Fight the Sin than Love the Sinner. That won't change any hearts. If we are not "winning" the abortion debate it's because we are Fighting the sin with words - not changing souls with the WORD.
Big difference.
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough. מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976 Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
If so, I got that one!!! I'm just slow in replying! 
Yes, it's equally important that we care for the mothers and take every chance to preserve their lives as well. My mother carried me to full term in the throws of Uterine Cancer so I have thought about all sides of this very much. The order was written for my abortion by Army doctors in Puerto Rico, and when my mother was sent to another clinic, the orders were lost for the proceedure. My mom considered this "a sign" that she wasn't supposed to do it and she never told the next Army doctor about her Cancer. Upon my birth they realized that the the parts that held me in the womb were eaten up and that neither I nor she should have actually still been alive at that point. She's still kickin and so am I. Men have one plan, and The Lord has another! In this case He used good old Army beauracracy to bring about my arrival, and used it again 17 years later to build my character, but that's a different story. 
