Which bullet penetrates better on close range elk?

[Naphtali]

Speer's FNSP (loaded round, and bullet on right) 400-grain and Remington's 405-grain FNSP (bullet on left) are moderately priced bullets intended for 45-70 cartridges. Loading ammunition to chronographed muzzle velocity of 1900 fps, which of them will penetrate elk more deeply, more reliably at 50 yards and closer?

[reo]

I have no experience with these bullets but it seems like you would get about the same penetration. I'd probably shoot the one that shot most accurately in my gun.

[Duff L Bagg]

In the not so distant past the Remington 405's were very cheap in bulk. Over the years I have probably shot a rail car load of them through my Marlin 1895SS (okay maybe a Yugo car load) but I have shot a lot of them and they were very accurate slightly more so than the Speer. While I have yet to shoot an elk with one I can tell you that the Remington's will let the air out of a hog in a hurry, never have recovered a bullet.

[44LVR]

I've turned into my Dad I have 3 or 400 of each make of bullet but I save them for a 'rainy day'. Instead, I seem to kill all my elk with cast bullets when using a .45-70! So, I have never killed anything but a deer and a couple grouse with the 400gr Speer and 405gr Remington.

My Dad still today has jacketed bullets for his .357 (his main hunting rifle for 56 years) sitting on his reloading bench since the late 50's and early 60's!

44

[Hobie]

Elmer Keith told me to use the Remington 405 loaded to 1800 fps...

[Tennessee Hayre]

What kind of recoil do you get from the 45-70 using the 405 fnsp in compared to the 325 grain hornady flex tip. Man I got to say those 325's got some sting. Not that recoil is a problem for me, It is not too late for me to change my ammo before deer season, I'm thinking about going with a soft point of some kind..

[Naphtali]

What kind of recoil do you get from the 45-70 using the 405 fnsp in compared to the 325 grain hornady flex tip. Man I got to say those 325's got some sting. Not that recoil is a problem for me, It is not too late for me to change my ammo before deer season, I'm thinking about going with a soft point of some kind..

Recoil is a straightforward calculation. Felt recoil, though, factors stock shape and how the shooter shoots. For example, Doug Turnbull finds the shape of USRAC/Winchester's M1886 rifle buttstock (semipistol grip, crescent butt plate, etc.) better at controlling recoil for him than other traditional lever action stocks. I, however, find Browning's M71 buttstock (full pistol grip, shotgun butt plate, less drop at comb and heel than M1886) much easier to control. Doug is about 76 inches and 2xx pounds. I'm 69 inches and 140 pounds. Go figure.

Rifle recoil, thank goodness, has not been a problem for me. But the most powerful rifle I've fired is a 458 Winchester Magnum in a pre-64 M70 African. And I was a whole bunch younger.

[Meeteetse]

At 50 yards or less, I don't think the elk will know the difference. Either of the bullets you mentioned will probably penetrate completely at the distance you mentioned given a broadside shot. Both bullets will break a shoulder on a quartering shot. If the shot gets any longer, I would go with the harder bullet for penetration, or use a hardcast of about 400 gr. @ 1800 fps like Hobie said.

Where do you plan on hunting elk at 50 yds or less?

[handirifle]

THe BIG one!

Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously, I've had the Rem seperate from the jacket, but not the Speer, these were NOT in elk but other media, and both were at 50yds pushed closer to 2000fps (ouch).

My vote is for the Speer.

[Naphtali]

At 50 yards or less, I don't think the elk will know the difference. Either of the bullets you mentioned will probably penetrate completely at the distance you mentioned given a broadside shot. Both bullets will break a shoulder on a quartering shot. If the shot gets any longer, I would go with the harder bullet for penetration, or use a hardcast of about 400 gr. @ 1800 fps like Hobie said.

Where do you plan on hunting elk at 50 yds or less?

I'm 75 miles north-northeast of Missoula, Montana. I hunt Lolo National Forest about a 20-minute walk from my home.

I'm concerned about whether the bullet will maintain integrity at close range because:
1. That's where my opportunities will occur.

2. Bullets are more likely to expand uncontrollably or disintegrate at close range with velocity higher than at distance with lower velocity. Too rapid expansion, or disintegration, will result in inadequate penetration.
***
Since intended quarry is mature elk, and range is necessarily short, I prefer bullets weighing near 400 grains. Something that lurks in the background is that when dressing an elk, I gotta remember I've seen two grizzlies this year.

Work arounds include:
1. $1.25 bullets, plus $1.25 bullets with which to practice -- aka Alaska Bullet Works 405-grain Kodiak bonded core.

2. $1.25 bullets, plus modestly priced 400-405-grain bullets having nearly identical trajectory as $1.25 bullets with which to practice -- -- aka Alaska Bullet Works 405-grain Kodiak bonded core, plus ???.

3. Moderately priced 400-405-grain bullets that expand moderately even when puncturing scapulae -- aka ???.

Extensive practice, as well as fun shooting, at $1.25 a pop (just for the bullet) will get old quickly. While fun shooting will be, in part, with cast 380-grain LBT LFNs, practicing with same bullet trajectory as the one used for the hunt is a better solution.

[BigSky56]

At velocites that leverguns shoot the old cup&core bullets do just fine for meat animals and will work on grizzlies to, but its hard to beat the lbt gc bullets they hold together like a 1.25 bullet but cost a bunch less $20.00 a 100. danny

[AndyM]

My vote is for the Speer.

I would agree - although I have probably shot more of the Rem through my 45-70's - the Speer to me, seems put together better. I know for certain, the Rem's work fine on eastern whitetails.

I beleive Brian P. in Rifle Magazine used Rem. 405's to take some African Plains game - so I guess you really cannot go wrong or make a bad choice on this one.

[Blaine]

The Rem. 405 tends to shed it's jacket easily, but that still leaves an appox. 380 grain lead slug......at close range, you will actually get better penetration with the Rem 405 at lower fps, just the way Remington intended them to be used....... Personally, I'd load a Nosler Partition 300gr at 2000fps or so for elk........Why let the shot of a lifetime hang on a few cents for a bullet?

[Mike D.]

I have dropped elk directly with the Hornady 350 RN at somewhere in the neighborhood of 1900 FPS. 50-250 yds, it will do the trick.

[Leverluver]

I did tests on most 400 grain jacketed bullets that were avaiable at the time, at an impact speed of 1900fps. The test was commisioned by a curious individual that had a 450-348AK. Both the Rem and the Speer will over expand if driven too fast and you hit something hard. The over-expansion severely cuts into penetration. In comparing the two, of the lots I had, I'd say the speer 400 was inferior to the Rem but, again, I consider both a failure at those impact speeds. Both will hold together well enough if impact is held to less than 1500fps. But if you are going to shoot it that slow or that far away, yes, you might as well go cast. Personally, I'd shoot a Swift 350 at 2150+. It will out penetrate either the Speer or Rem 400s when impacting at high speeds. Now the Speer 350 is a pretty good penetrator but it is a lousy expander BELOW 1600fps (and it doesn't have much of meplat to do any significant damage if it doesn't expand). If you loaded to ~2150 with the Speer 350 and didn't shoot over 75yds, you would have a good compromise load of descent expansion and very good penetration.

[Naphtali]

I did tests on most 400 grain jacketed bullets that were avaiable at the time, at an impact speed of 1900fps. The test was commisioned by a curious individual that had a 450-348AK. Both the Rem and the Speer will over expand if driven too fast and you hit something hard. The over-expansion severely cuts into penetration. In comparing the two, of the lots I had, I'd say the speer 400 was inferior to the Rem but, again, I consider both a failure at those impact speeds. Both will hold together well enough if impact is held to less than 1500fps. But if you are going to shoot it that slow or that far away, yes, you might as well go cast. Personally, I'd shoot a Swift 350 at 2150+. It will out penetrate either the Speer or Rem 400s when impacting at high speeds. Now the Speer 350 is a pretty good penetrator but it is a lousy expander BELOW 1600fps (and it doesn't have much of meplat to do any significant damage if it doesn't expand). If you loaded to ~2150 with the Speer 350 and didn't shoot over 75yds, you would have a good compromise load of descent expansion and very good penetration.

Good stuff here. I cannot load 350-grain Speer FNSPs in 45-70s. Nose is too long. I decided a while back that 400 grains and up is the bullet weight I prefer. If I thought I could kvetch out 1900+ fps from 450-grain Hawk (.035 or .050 inch) or Barnes Original (.032 inch), I would use them. Since no one has written anything but praise for Alaska Bullet Works 405-grain Kodiak bonded cores, this is my standard. But at $1.25 a bullet, practice and fun shooting will get old quickly. That's the reason for this query -- a bullet with nearly identical trajectory, moderately priced that will do the job in a pinch. If nothing can do the job in a pinch inexpensively, then fall back to being a practice bullet of the same trajectory.

[Leverluver]

Well of the two you mentioned, at least the Rem still looked like it started life as a bullet after examining the impacted bullet. The Speer looked like a wad of gun somebody spit on the sidewalk and somebody else stepped on; completely unrecognizable blob and a flat blob at that. I wouldn't want anythng to do with either one of them in big bear country, not at the velocities your shooting. If your game wardens are anything like mine, the first shot into a grizz better have powder burns on it or you are looking at a really stiff fine, if not jail time. That means you will be impacting at essentially muzzle velocity. Use the Rem for practice and the kodiak for hunting. FYI, the Speer 350 can be loded just like BB loads it; use a compressed load and crimp over the ogive. Or you can trim some cases so that you can crimp in the groove, if you want. The Hornady LR cases would probably work perfectly.

[Don McDowell]

Slow the velocity down to 1500ish and either of those bullets will likely poke a 1/2 inch hole thru an elk at 50 yds.

As to the grizzly thing, unless you need life flighted out to the hospital (you'll still have to answer alot of questions from surly attituded folks with federal badges), shooting a grizz is still a federal offense in the lower 48, so best to consult with your attorney on what load to use.

[44LVR]

I've kilt many an elk with the 45-70, of the big Roosevelt flavor! My favorite load consists of a 420gr cast at 1512fps. I've yet to need a second shot and have never recovered a bullet.

44

[penates]

I have found the remington to be a bit softer out of my Ruger #1.

[Naphtali]

Grizzly anxiety is just that -- anxiety. I don't consider them a problem except in one instance. Were I to kill a large animal and be field dressing it, this is the instance where I would be alert for a grizzly going to the hog trough. The theory is that my hunting partner will stand around while I do the work, and vice versa. I'm not sure yet how efficient in practice is the theory.

I have a friend in Darby, Jimmy Harrison, who keeps shredded Wrangler jeans in the showcase of his custom hat shop (Double H Custom Hat Co.). Two lethal 45-70s went into his grizzly. Grizzly chased him into a creek. He made it to the other side and delivered the coup de graçe into its mouth. This was almost a tie game, ties favoring the grizzly.