OT: Chain fires in C&B revolvers

[J Miller]

I didn't want to hijack Old Savages thread on the 1860 so I'll ask the question here.

How, with tight fitting balls over the powder can there be chain fires? I've wondered this for a long time.

Joe

[jnyork]

I have never seen one, but then everyone I know greases 'em up. I for one will not be experimenting with it!

[rjohns94]

i use wads over powder and under the ball, never had a problem, don't use grease

[2ndovc]

Not sure how it happens but it does. I had three chambers fire one day while shooting one of my Dad's 1860s w/o
greasing the chambers.

I'd put so many rounds through the Uberti that the cyl. was so warm the Crisco I was using on top of the ball
was melting as soon as I put it on. The very First reload after I had stopped using it three chambers fired on the first shot.

Didn't hurt anything except my hand was stinging a 'bit!

Some how, some way that spark gets in there. WON'T do it again!

jb

[Old Ironsights]

If you use a proper sized ball (one that shaves lead on loading) grease won't make one whit of difference. No spark is going to make it past an engraved lead to steel fit.

You are FAR more likely to have a chain fire from flash-back entering a cap loose on a nipple.

Now, OTOH, if your balls aren't a "shaved-lead-ring" fit, then maybe grease will do more than just make cleanup easier...

[Gun Smith]

Most of you suggest Crisco. I used to use water pump grease. Much less messy and stiffer. Probably not available now. My can has a picture of Manny, Moe and Jack on it. It cost $.19! I just use a wad under the ball now.

[Ben_Rumson]

As I was firing my next to the last round in my 58 Rem the last round fired off too.. I figured the grease was shook off enough from recoil to let some flame by.. Got a lil more noise and kick and a lead smear along the frame where the ball kissed it.. I was using Lawrence 45 cal. chilled shot..which is not perfectly round but oversize for the chamber... but it used to be a recomended thing to use as an alternative to casting before swaged lead ball became available. Gave all the grease and mess up & started using a WW cast SAECO 180gr .452 SWC lubed with 50/50 Alox & never looked back.

[L8agin]

On a pietta 1851 36 cal and tight fitting shaving lead loads, had a 3 chamber chain fire. Got over enamered with the attributes of ballistol and black powder guns, I used it for a over the ball lube sealant. Handy you know a spray can an all. Anyway-didn't seal-probably acted more like a fuse
Otherwis have had no problem with a grease kind of lube over the ball. Seams to get blasted into parts that benefit
L8

[Andrew]

I wondered the same thing. I think what OI said is right, but I will keep lubing mine anyhoo. No need in experimenting w/ my poor OA.

[2ndovc]

If you use a proper sized ball (one that shaves lead on loading) grease won't make one whit of difference. No spark is going to make it past an engraved lead to steel fit.

You are FAR more likely to have a chain fire from flash-back entering a cap loose on a nipple.

Now, OTOH, if your balls aren't a "shaved-lead-ring" fit, then maybe grease will do more than just make cleanup easier...

Proper RB in the revolver. Still happens some times.

There's a reason the metallic cartridge came along.

jb

[Griff]

With a properly fit LEAD ball, there is little chance of flame getting between the cylinder wall and the ball. But... it has been known to happen. Either use grease over the ball or a wad under the powder. One assumes that the cylinder walls are straight and parrellel, if not slightly tapered toward the bottom; it might not be true in all cases. I've heard where caps fell off from recoil and a chain fire ensued. It will wake you up according to those that have experienced it. Use an alloy ball, and you takes yer chances. Most conicals designed for C&B revolvers are of a "heeled" design. I have a 90 grain LEE mold that I use for knockdown targets, it's diameter at the base is smaller than the main part of the body. I tend not to cast mine often, it's time consuming, what with only 2 cavities.

One the plus side for grease, it keeps the fouling softer longer and in some respects self lubricates parts of the gun.

[Old Ironsights]

I wondered the same thing. I think what OI said is right, but I will keep lubing mine anyhoo. No need in experimenting w/ my poor OA.

Proper RB in the revolver. Still happens some times.

There's a reason the metallic cartridge came along.

jb

Yep. It's simple physics. A cap loose on a nipple is asking for a flash-over detonation - a #10 doesn't take much to set off - and no amount of greasing will help it.

OTOH, there is no physical way for ANY fire to get past a proper lead-to-steel seal. The lube just helps with cleanup, but otherwise just makes your holster a mess.

Tight caps + tight balls = no problems.

[Comal Forge]

It's more likely flashing at the nipples. Quite often, people use caps that are a tiny bit too large. Two things happen: either the cap simply falls off from recoil or the cap still fits so loosely after being pinched that flame just goes under it. As stated here, many people have put oversized balls that shave lead in a C&B revolver and still had chainfires. Slow motion photography shows flame all over the place - both front and back, so any exposed powder can light. A loose cap might also fire from an errant flash, which will also set off the main cylinder charge.

One of the reasons I am pretty sure of this theory is that my dad had an original double barrel ML shotgun that would occasionally double-fire on him. The nipples should have used a musket cap but were pretty worn from use so the caps were loose enough that they would sometimes fall off while he carried it. I always doubted that flash from the muzzle went all the way back down a 32 in barrel so flash at the nipples makes the most sense to me.

I've shot C&B revolvers for over 30 years - both originals and replicas - and never experienced a chain fire. I use a very slightly oversize ball over a greased felt wad, without grease over the balls. More importantly I always use Remington #10 caps, which fit most nipples pretty tightly - I think most chain fires might go away if the shooter tried a different cap.

[Hobie]

I didn't want to hijack Old Savages thread on the 1860 so I'll ask the question here.

How, with tight fitting balls over the powder can there be chain fires? I've wondered this for a long time.

Joe

Apparently, the balls are never tight enough. In all seriousness, some chain fires are initiated through the nipple. In this world, lots of things go wrong. They more often go wrong when you don't do as you're supposed to or take precautions.

[Ysabel Kid]

I've had one chain-fire, and it scared me half to death. Not sure how it happened and I don't care - having experienced it first hand, I know it is possible, and I don't plan to tempt fate twice. It is Crisco for me from now on!!!

[PaperPatch]

Chain firing is caused by the inadequate seal provided by the ball, which is not a very tight fit to begin with.

Keep in mind that the ring of lead removed during seating, represents the amount of gasket or surface area of the seal. And what is that...1/32 of an inch??? Hardly adequate to sustain a seal under the pressure and heat of combustion.

Additional sealing is thus required so as to prevent unscheduled ignition.

[AmBraCol]

Chain fire will happen via a tiny gap between ball and chamber or via the nipples. I suspect that most are via the nipple section if proper sized balls are being used as OI mentions above. I used to use .490 balls in my Old Army - NEVER had a chain fire. But I also used tight fitting caps. If more than one other chamber fires then the probable cause would be flash over the nipples and loose fitting caps.

As for lube - black powder and petroleum based lubes are NOT a happy combination. Use natural oils to lube your cap and ball (and muzzle loaders) and you'll have much less to clean up. Crisco falls in that category, so does tallow and tallow/beeswax and a wide variety of other natural grease. Go "mountain man" and get ahold of some "bar grease"...

Andrew, that Old Army will put up with more abuse than you'd believe. Don't ask me how I know. Let's just say that some tech at Ruger is probably STILL talking about that one OA he had to repair one time... I sure do miss that ol' gun.

[Old Time Hunter]

A lubed wad under the RB has so far been the trick for me...no chain fires. Use #10 caps, make sure they sit tight. If you can spin the loaded cylinder, the caps should be seated properly. One thing though, the 1858 Remington design does not move the cylinder against the forcing cone and quite a bit of gas (fire) exits between the cylinder and the cone. The Colt design forces the cylinder against the cone, very little blow by. Wonder if this has anything to do with it?

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I wondered the same thing. I think what OI said is right, but I will keep lubing mine anyhoo. No need in experimenting w/ my poor OA.

Proper RB in the revolver. Still happens some times.

There's a reason the metallic cartridge came along.

jb

Yep. It's simple physics. A cap loose on a nipple is asking for a flash-over detonation - a #10 doesn't take much to set off - and no amount of greasing will help it.

OTOH, there is no physical way for ANY fire to get past a proper lead-to-steel seal. The lube just helps with cleanup, but otherwise just makes your holster a mess.

Tight caps + tight balls = no problems.

Are you absolutely sure about that? Have you given any thought to what happens to the adjacent chambers when the one under the hammer is fired. There's a whole lot of vibration and front to back rattling of the cylinder when it goes off and even swaged in tight soft lead round balls can and will shake loose.
I've been a SASS member since the early 90's and for most of the time I have competed in the black power categories, mainly frontiersman. I even have a few state level first place trophies to show for it.
Frontiersmans requires the use of two CB revolvers and a leveraction and a shotgun loaded with BP loads.
I normally shoot Remington pattern guns. Mainly because reloading with spare cylinders is more convenient.


But I have used them all at one time or another.
I really liked this 1860 once I fitted a 51 grip frame but a feller made me an offer I couldn't refuse so I no longer have it.


So, here is how I found out they can shake loose. I had one of the 58's that had a poorly made barrel, really rough. At 25yds it would only shoot about 12 or more inch groups/pattern. So, what I did was fire lap it with LBT bore lapping compound diluted with some gun oil. The process was load all 6 chambers,(BTW, I was using .470 balls because they shave a long flat on the side to grip the rifling better) loaded over 25 gr of 2F under a treated fiber wad. Next, the bore is swabbed with the LBT and one round fired. Remove the cylinder, clean the bore, swab it again with the LBT and fire another round. Do this for all six chambers. But what I found was one of the .470 balls had rattled loose after 4 rounds shot. I reseatted it and finished the fire lapping. I cleaned and reloaded 5 rounds. The resulting group was down to 4" at 25yds.

The only chain fire I have ever had was probably caused by the same rattling of the cylinder, too. In my youth I had an old brass frame 51 but it was a 44 cal. Historically never made. I didn't have a proper powder measure so I just filled the chambers to the top and blew off enough powder to seat the ball and dadded on some grease. Some I even had to trim with a pocket knife so the cylinder would turn. Anyway, that was just too stout a load for the brass frame and it stretched to a point that the hammer wouldn't even reach the nipples anymore. No problem, being that I'm 10 foot tall and bullet proof, I'll just hold that cylinder back so the hammer will set the primer off. Believe me that was no a good plan. All went well once or twice but the last time I shoot that gun like that, both chambers, one on each side of the one under the hammer chain fired. If you have ever had a firecracker go off in your hand you might understand what it felt like. I dropped that thing and immediately counted fingers. Purpled a couple fingernails but I didn't loose none.

I believe it was caused by that cylinder rattling back and forth shaking the balls loose. Now days I use .457 ball over a treated wad and 25gr of 2F. Thoushand of rounds down range now and I haven't had a chain fire since. I thing the fiber wad stops any flash from reaching the powder. I also use quality Treso nipples on all my CB pistols. They are more precisely made with smaller flash holes that don't wash out like the cheap Italian one.

[Old Savage]

Joe let me say I appreciate you bringing this up - I would like to know about any issues involved.

[Grizzly Adams]

If you use a proper sized ball (one that shaves lead on loading) grease won't make one whit of difference. No spark is going to make it past an engraved lead to steel fit.

You are FAR more likely to have a chain fire from flash-back entering a cap loose on a nipple.

Now, OTOH, if your balls aren't a "shaved-lead-ring" fit, then maybe grease will do more than just make cleanup easier...

Crisco is for making cookies!

Man, I wish I had a buck for every time I have seen this one debated! In any case, OI is right on the money, IMHO. It is caused by the flash over entering a loose cap on the nipple - fire one at night and you will be amazed at the flash over! I always cringe when I hear fellas talking about pinching caps to make them fit!

FWIW, I have shot Frontiersman and Plainsman for a long time, and fired more rounds than I care to remember - or clean, and have NEVER had a problem with chain fire or anything shaking loose. I have never used goop of any kind on my pistols. It just creates a greasy mess. Use the correct caps and properly sized ball and you will have no undue excitement. ( One note of caution here, all pistols are not created equal. I had a "matched set" of 1851 Colts Navies that required two different sizes of ball. Make sure!)

But, this is one of those discussions that never ends, and provides endless entertainment for shooters - everyone has an opinion, and old myths die hard. Kinda like talking 30-06 versus whatever you favor!

So..... I would have to say that if it worries you, then slap on the Crisco and enjoy!

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

If you use a proper sized ball (one that shaves lead on loading) grease won't make one whit of difference. No spark is going to make it past an engraved lead to steel fit.

You are FAR more likely to have a chain fire from flash-back entering a cap loose on a nipple.

Now, OTOH, if your balls aren't a "shaved-lead-ring" fit, then maybe grease will do more than just make cleanup easier...

Crisco is for making cookies!

Man, I wish I had a buck for every time I have seen this one debated! In any case, OI is right on the money, IMHO. It is caused by the flash over entering a loose cap on the nipple - fire one at night and you will be amazed at the flash over! I always cringe when I hear fellas talking about pinching caps to make them fit!

FWIW, I have shot Frontiersman and Plainsman for a long time, and fired more rounds than I care to remember - or clean, and have NEVER had a problem with chain fire or anything shaking loose. I have never used goop of any kind on my pistols. It just creates a greasy mess. Use the correct caps and properly sized ball and you will have no undue excitement. ( One note of caution here, all pistols are not created equal. I had a "matched set" of 1851 Colts Navies that required two different sizes of ball. Make sure!)

But, this is one of those discussions that never ends, and provides endless entertainment for shooters - everyone has an opinion, and old myths die hard. Kinda like talking 30-06 versus whatever you favor!

So..... I would have to say that if it worries you, then slap on the Crisco and enjoy!

No treated fiber wad either?
I don't use the grease either just the wads.

[Old Ironsights]

Well Nate, I'm not going to argue that a ball can't shake loose... but then it's not a proper lead-to-steel seal then, is it?

Stil, I would be FAR more worried about a ball moving off the powder charge from heavy loads/shake than I would a cylinder-side ignition.

Loose caps, big flash holes, sloppy powder handling all are more likely to cause a chain fire... from the nipple side.

[perry owens]

Used to use 0.457 round balls with a beeswax/olive oil grease cookie over the ball in my Ruger Old Armys. Remington #11 caps fit tight and don't fall off even when fired. Now I use Big Lube Old Army bullets. The mould is a 6-cavity and I can run the bullets through a lubrisizer to fill the huge grease groove.As an added bonus they give great accuracy in my pistols.
Perry Owens

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Well Nate, I'm not going to argue that a ball can't shake loose... but then it's not a proper lead-to-steel seal then, is it?

Stil, I would be FAR more worried about a ball moving off the powder charge from heavy loads/shake than I would a cylinder-side ignition.

Loose caps, big flash holes, sloppy powder handling all are more likely to cause a chain fire... from the nipple side.

I wholeheartedly agree I just don't think it's anymore likely. that's why I use the Treso nipples. If you use just grease and no wad it will happen from the front as well. As I said, I use treated wads. I think they act as a flame arrester.

[J Miller]

I'm trying to remember ...... my friend in AZ has a Colt copy of some model, I just can't remember which one. I seem to remember it as a .44 cal. Any way the one time we went out to shoot it we had a great time with it. I don't remember any thing happening out of the ordinary. No chain fires, no hang fires, just lots of smoke and fun.
I can't remember if we put grease over the balls, or a wad under the balls.

It's been way too long now.

Joe

[John in MS]

Good info, all -- thanks!!


NATE, you mention using treated fiber wads. Are these the fiber wads as sold by John Walters for
BPCR reloading? If so, what are you treating them with? It would be great to have a less expensive
(much less expensive!!) alternative to Wonder Wads.

Any info will be most appreciated -- thanks!
John

[AmBraCol]

It would be great to have a less expensive (much less expensive!!) alternative to Wonder Wads.

Any info will be most appreciated -- thanks!
John

John, pick up an old felt hat at a yard sale. Use an appropriate sized punch to cut disks out of it that will fit snugly into the mouth of the chamber. Soak them in tallow, tallow beeswax, melted crisco or your choice of other natural lube. Voilá. You've got ready made "wonder wads" that will fit nicely and will keep your fouling soft as well as help seal against chain fires. Or, you can used the aforementioned punch to cut disks out of a variety of other fibrous materials - even an old boot would work. Stay away from synthetics - they'll probably melt and make a mess and besides, the idea is to use a BP compatible lube. Stick with the natural oils and a fiber wad and you're good to go.

[AmBraCol]

Forgot to mention, Elmer Keith wrote about using an old felt hat with melted tallow for shooting cap and ball revolvers. So the idea is DEFINITELY not original with me. Stay away from petroleum products. They do not combine happily with BP fouling and make a REAL nasty mess to clean up.