Wyatt Earp on Gun-Fanning

[Doc Hudson]

The other day, the subject of gun-fanning came up and I mentioned something I read in Lake's biography of Wyatt Earp. Since he's been on my mind lately, I decided to reread Wyatt Earp: Frontier Marshal. I've just scratched the surface, but I found these rather interesting comments that I thought I'd post for your entertainment, edification, consideration and discussion.

Doc

Wyatt Earp on Gun Fanning

The following are direct quotes from Wyatt Earp as reported by Stuart N. Lake in his biography Wyatt Earp: Frontier Marshal. The quotes are taken from Chapter 4 Guns and Gunfighters.

“ In all my life as a frontier peace officer, I did not know of a really proficient gunfighter who had anything but contempt for the gun-fanner, or the man who literally shot from the hip. ...”

“From personal experience and from numerous sic-gun battles which I witnessed, I can only support the opinion advanced by the men who gave me my most valuable instruction in fast and accurate shooting, which was that the gun-fanner and the hip-shooter stood small chance to live against a a man who, as old Jack Gallagher always put it took his time and pulled the trigger once.”

“...A skilled gun-fanner could fire five shots from a forty-five so rapidly that the individual reports were indistinguishable, but what could happen to him in a gunfight was pretty close to murder.”

“Hickok (James B. “Wild Bill” Hickok) knew all the fancy tricks and was as good as the best at that sortof gunplay, but when he had serious business in hand, a man to get, the acid test of marksmanship, I doubt if he employed them. At least, he told me that he did not. I have seen him in action and I never saw him fan a gun, shoot from the hip, or try to fire two pistols simultaneously. Neither have I ever heard a reliable old-timer tell of any trick-shooting employed by Hickok when fast, straight-shooting meant life or death.”

[piller]

For a pimp, Earp was a decent peacekeeper. Some of the cribs his prostitutes were kept in still stand in Dodge City. They are only about 2 blocks from the tourist attraction known as Front Street. He was run out of Wichita for his prostitution racket. Wichita and Dodge don't really think well of him. Until Kirk Jordan showed up, Billy Dixon did a better job than Earp did. Dixon learned from that experience and discovered the value of a .45-70.

[don Tomás]

Oh man, Doc, don't tell me that! I used to love my Fanner-50 when I was a mere yute...
Tom

[KCSO]

There seem to be a lot of folks somehow bitter that Earp held jobs that TODAY are not legal. Earp was at best a part time Officer and was willing to work at anything that made him a buck, much like a lot of folks today. A hundred years from now will people thnk less of you if you worked at a tobacco factory? As to run out here, backed down there, ect. There is no one who has ever worked Law in a small town that at any one time didn't have 1/2 the population mad at him. People love to make heros of the bad guys and denigrate the good guys. When Lake wrote the book it was fashion to make heros and today it is fashion to tear them down, but the plain bald truth is that people are people and always have been.

As to the threads original premise, whatever else he was Earp knew shooting and winning. Everyting I have read quoting him on shootouts was good sound advise.

[Old Savage]

Had a Fanner 50 and a Stallion 45.

[don Tomás]

I would have killed for a Stallion 45! My buddy had one and it was cool the way the single cap was loaded in the 2 piece bullet which was loaded into the cylinder through the gate. None of that roll cap nonsense! BTW, while looking for a photo I noticed that you can find them for $500 ~ $700!
Tom

[Gary]

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[CowboyTutt]

Doc, I've been gon a few weeks and just now am back online. Nice to "see" you here again! An excellent thread. I found the comments about Wyatt Earp particularly interesting as I've never heard him referred to as a "pimp" before. I have family in Wichita and have been to Cow Town, but have never heard anyone speak ill of the man there. If someone would like to flesh-out these aspects of Earps character I would find it very interesting.

-Tutt

[Leverluver]

I bet that house I lived in 50 years ago still has "shootin shell" slugs rattling around down in furnace heating ducts Seems like that's where I lost most of them.

Can't imagine hitting squat fanning a 45 shooting 255 grainers backed by 40 grs of black. That's a pretty good jolt for a plow handle. A 36 Navy maybe, but not a 45.

[rangerider7]

Nichol's Stallion 45 WOW! I use to go to the store for my mom or dad and pass by a store that had one for sell. I would go in every time and just look at it. The owner would let me touch it once in a while. That was when I was 9. I finally traded for a used one a few years later. It was the best. It sure does bring back memories for this 63 year old kid! I have 15 single actions now! 10 are Colt SAA. I guess I made up for the wait.

[CowboyTutt]

I totally agree with Wyatt's assessment of fanning vs. target slow-fire with the exception being your name isn't Bob Munden in which case all bets are off! Strange but true that our modern "gun fighters" are probably better than the originals. I know many will disagree, but I think there are many talented people out there doing things with handguns that were never done in the old days whether it is extreme range pistol shooting or quick-draw.

[HATCHETTJACK]

i dont know about fanning but my god, is there a better name for an old west,gunfightin,whore runnin sheriff than WYATT EARP.. just think they had some cool names back then

[CowboyTutt]

Jack, spoken like a true mountain man! Read about Kit Carson if you ever get the chance. I just finished reading "Blood and Thunder", a book about Kit. He was apparently the most famous of the mountain men. His tracking abilities were legendary. It is a fine read (and new), and one I think you will enjoy. But I suspect you have already read about him some.....

-Tutt

[Malamute]

"I totally agree with Wyatt's assessment of fanning vs. target slow-fire with the exception being your name isn't Bob Munden in which case all bets are off! Strange but true that our modern "gun fighters" are probably better than the originals. I know many will disagree, but I think there are many talented people out there doing things with handguns that were never done in the old days whether it is extreme range pistol shooting or quick-draw."


Interesting point, tho I would suggest that many of the old time gunfighters were "good" because of the combination of skill at arms and ice cold nerve. I have recently heard from someone that has seen one of the well known exhibition shooters (I believe the one you mentioned) shoot in competition, and he tends to get rattled or frustrated when shooting competition, and makes mistakes. Pressure changes the equation.

Fanning is similar to our modern situation with high capacity autos. Shooting fast can make one feel like they are "doing something", and one may get lucky (which is what it really is at that point, if you miss 14 times and hit once) and make a hit, but it's still "faster" to take the time and shoot less, but more accurately.

[Charles]

When I was a kid in the early 50's I had a pair of Stallion 45's in a gaudy white double Buscadero rig. No other kid I knew had so fine a pair of cap pistols. The rig has belt loops for the spare rounds. I have no idea what happened to them. I suspect my Grandmother gave them to another kid when I outgrew them. She was good at that, but she always asked my permission which I freely gave.

Western lawmen often worked both sides of the law. Sometimes at different times, sometimes at the same time. They were not men who were generally respected by the Quality Folk of the community. Like garbage collectors, they were a necessary part of a well ordered community.

Edward Zane Carol Judson (AKA Ned Buntline) and others of his ilk, made heroes of those folks and the that tradition continues to day. Many (not all) if judged on the content of their character alone would not fare so well, even by the standards of their day.

[Hillbilly]

I dont mind Earp or his brothers... we have had a few modern day "law dogs" who have been worse.

I lived in a county for a while... Trustees shot in the back while "escaping" to fetch a pack of smokes... kids hung with the knots tied from the "outiside" while in custody.... bootleggers, pimps and whores ...

And that was while dad was Sherrif. The Kid who was Cheif Deputy from the time he got out of college was just as bad.

Kept all Poppas rackets running after he was elected ... plus he could find an arsoonist if you needed one.

Tommy finally got caught by the feds... he helped a convicted felon do a class 3 deal... then the arson business sprang a leak.

His final nail.... he stole a Federal judges kids 4H project. Tommy and pals went across the river one night ... got drunk... stole the sheep and ...well ....the sheep was found dead later with DNA...'nuff said.

Did I mention both dad and son were adulterers and confirmed wife beaters too.

The Cribbs era...Dyer County TN.... most of the 20th Centrury.

[trapper45]

I had the Stallion .45; my brother had their slightly smaller .38. That was 'A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far away' . . . . . or so it seems now. Times were different then: I used to trudge a Spencer 2 blocks to elementary school (fourth grade) alone, put it in the corner, and then bring it out for 'show and tell,' then haul it back home at the end of the school day. Mrs. Mason thought it was very interesting; nobody batted an eyelash. Another boy brought a cannonball--a twelve-pound round shot makes (made) quite an impression in linoleum . . . . .

[piller]

Some of Earp's more nefarious activities can be found at
www.wyattearp.net and at http://wyattsearp.com/history.html

His status as a gunfighter is not in question. I just wonder at why he has become the fantasy ideal of a western lawman. There were many others who did as much as he did, or at least as can be proved. James Butler Hickock was well known for keeping the peace and staying on the right side. The Arizona Rangers and the Texas Rangers did things which were simply amazing. Check out the exploits of the modern Texas Rangers. The book One Ranger is a fascinating book by a real, honest to goodness man of the law. Lets just not jump on the bandwagon of celebrity because someone had a movie made about him. In my opinion, the same type of feeling is what makes Jesse James a hero to some.

[Doc Hudson]

Some of Earp's more nefarious activities can be found at
http://www.wyattearp.net and at http://wyattsearp.com/history.html

His status as a gunfighter is not in question. I just wonder at why he has become the fantasy ideal of a western lawman. There were many others who did as much as he did, or at least as can be proved. James Butler Hickock was well known for keeping the peace and staying on the right side. The Arizona Rangers and the Texas Rangers did things which were simply amazing. Check out the exploits of the modern Texas Rangers. The book One Ranger is a fascinating book by a real, honest to goodness man of the law. Lets just not jump on the bandwagon of celebrity because someone had a movie made about him. In my opinion, the same type of feeling is what makes Jesse James a hero to some.

I suppose that one reason Wyatt Earp is generally held in higher esteem than the Prince of the Pistoleers is the simple fact that Earp preferred taking men in alive rather than killing them. Some folks say that Earp's preference for arrest rather than gunplay came from the fact that he got paid for arrests and not for killing. Does that make him worse than men who killed for profit? I don't think so.

I've not checked your links, I figured they are just a rehash of the charges made by enemies who lacked the sand to face Wyatt Earp's guns. The charges of stagecoach robbery made in Tombstone are ridiculous, the Earp brothers took it by turns to ride shotgun for that stage line. How could they expect to rob it without being recognized. And while John Henry Holliday might have been a killing gent, he was no common bandit.

Gambling was considered to be an honest profession in Earp's day, and the owner of a faro bank was held in equal or higher esteem than the owner or the local commercial bank. And neither was prostitution illegal in the boomtowns in which the Earps sought their fortunes. Pimps and procurers might not have been the cream of society, but they were operating legal businesses.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the allegations of Earp criminality have been borne out. All of them have been made by enemies and should be judged on those grounds.

Then again, lots of revisionist historians take great delight in pointing out our heroes feet of clay. Earps are darned as pimps and gamblers, Washington is condemned as a slave owner, just as if the laws, and social mores of the time condemned those acts just as our modern mores condemn them. I have news for you and the revisionists, the people of 100, 200, 300, and more years ago did not operate under our modern social and legal structure, and judging them by lights of modern laws and social custom is illogical.

[piller]

While some may have "lacked the sand" to face Earp, it is well known that his claims to having faced down several men were total fabrications. He never faced down Clay Allison as he later claimed. He was proven to have not even been at the place when he claimed the incident happened. And, yes, prostitution was illegal in both Wichita and Dodge when he was keeping prostitutes.

[KT-45]

Some of Earp's more nefarious activities can be found at
http://www.wyattearp.net and at http://wyattsearp.com/history.html

His status as a gunfighter is not in question. I just wonder at why he has become the fantasy ideal of a western lawman. There were many others who did as much as he did, or at least as can be proved. James Butler Hickock was well known for keeping the peace and staying on the right side. The Arizona Rangers and the Texas Rangers did things which were simply amazing. Check out the exploits of the modern Texas Rangers. The book One Ranger is a fascinating book by a real, honest to goodness man of the law. Lets just not jump on the bandwagon of celebrity because someone had a movie made about him. In my opinion, the same type of feeling is what makes Jesse James a hero to some.

I suppose that one reason Wyatt Earp is generally held in higher esteem than the Prince of the Pistoleers is the simple fact that Earp preferred taking men in alive rather than killing them. Some folks say that Earp's preference for arrest rather than gunplay came from the fact that he got paid for arrests and not for killing. Does that make him worse than men who killed for profit? I don't think so.

I've not checked your links, I figured they are just a rehash of the charges made by enemies who lacked the sand to face Wyatt Earp's guns. The charges of stagecoach robbery made in Tombstone are ridiculous, the Earp brothers took it by turns to ride shotgun for that stage line. How could they expect to rob it without being recognized. And while John Henry Holliday might have been a killing gent, he was no common bandit.

Gambling was considered to be an honest profession in Earp's day, and the owner of a faro bank was held in equal or higher esteem than the owner or the local commercial bank. And neither was prostitution illegal in the boomtowns in which the Earps sought their fortunes. Pimps and procurers might not have been the cream of society, but they were operating legal businesses.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the allegations of Earp criminality have been borne out. All of them have been made by enemies and should be judged on those grounds.

Then again, lots of revisionist historians take great delight in pointing out our heroes feet of clay. Earps are darned as pimps and gamblers, Washington is condemned as a slave owner, just as if the laws, and social mores of the time condemned those acts just as our modern mores condemn them. I have news for you and the revisionists, the people of 100, 200, 300, and more years ago did not operate under our modern social and legal structure, and judging them by lights of modern laws and social custom is illogical.

Well said, Doc. I am, personally, tired of historic revisionists. What happened then is what happened then...not now.

To keep things in focus, I'm a smoker. When I became a smoker (not that many years ago) it was not a social taboo...just a habit some people had and others did not. Now I'm some sort of social outcast.

Different customs, different times.

Are all these revisionists going to jump on the bandwagon when gun owners are the outcasts? Or are they going to stand for the Constitution?

[CowboyTutt]

Malamute, that is a good point about having "steel nerve". I think its very hard to know what we would do under pressure. I can say that we automatically do what we practice when there is no time to think about it. Bob has practiced to the extent that he can do amazing things. I suspect when his life depended on it, his speed, which is so much greater than the average man, would prevail. Bob could "take his time" and still be considerably faster than most men. If there was a protracted "war of nerve" before the fight its anyone's guess. Perhaps then the old gunfighters would have the edge. Anyhow, I have never met Bob in person, and have only talked to him by phone, but I really liked him. No hard feelings if you disagree. There is something to be said for nerve, that is for sure.

It sounds like there are disagreements about whether what Wyatt did was legal for the time or not. I suspect if any of us met him in person, we would like him or at the least respect him.

-Tutt

[Doc Hudson]

I suspect if any of us met him in person, we would like him or at the least respect him.
-Tutt

If even just 2/3 of what Lake wrote about Wyatt Earp was true, and in many cases he was quoting eyewitness descriptions from people other than Earp, you can bet the farm that we'd respect the man whether we liked him or not.

[Jeeps]

On the subject of fanning quite a few folks have strong opinions one way or the other.

The military always taught precision shooting ( one shot, one kill ) and ask any veteran what they are told when they
get "in theater". That's right "heavy volume of fire saves your life".

First man to score a hit usually wins

[Comal Forge]

What makes the difference is the "fight"...I've been in a few street fights (fortunately, no gunfights so far) and every fight has a cycle; some take time to develop while others happen in a few seconds. There is a great deal of body language and psychology in play - the winner sometimes gets the upper edge on purpose and other times, it's purely accidental. Clay Allison's classic fight with Chunk Colbert is an example; Allison might have died right there if Colbert's gun had not hung up on the table. I'd also wager there was plenty of tension at that meal.

It's akin to what the Japanese bushi practiced - one should always be mentally prepared for death so he can react without extraneous thought when circumstances demand it. Maybe some of the old gunfighters had that quality.

[Malamute]

I wasn't trying to pick on munden, Just point out that even a fast and fine shot can get rattled or flustered under pressure. We live in a different world as day to day life, and few today face the same hardships and challenges. Many find they don't react how they think they will when things get interesting. Some do better, some don't. The "miss with 14 rounds and hit with one" comment I made was in reference to a police shooting in az years ago, an armed robber held up a convenience store, and was coming out the door with a rifle when the officer showed up. Bad guy swung the rifle towards the officer, and he shot 15 rounds, hitting him once. The papers reported what a good job he had done. 14 rounds went somewhere, not into the intended target, and it took time to miss all those times, wasted time. It takes less time to hit once or twice than miss a lot before (maybe)connecting. The officer was trained, but it's hard to consider it good shooting under pressure. Seems like the more rounds on tap, the poorer the shooting seems to get. Maybe the training isn't as good as the revolver days, but this sort of thing isn't isolated by any means. Cooper made a point of bringing similar situations up fairly regulalry. In another shoot, Cooper brought up an incident where 2 california officers caught up with a bad guy with a 44 mag revolver. They shot 30 some rounds at him and hit him 2 or 3 times, he shot 4 rounds and hit each officer twice. They had vests and he didnt, but the point was that he was shooting much better than they were. Cirrillo and the guys he worked with seemed to shoot rather well in general under fire and pressure. I don't know exactly what the difference is?

Regarding the "firepower saves you" thought, Cooper related a comment from a Viet Nam era Officer, he said that when the bad guys were on full auto with thier AK's, the good guys could get within about 25 yards before taking many hits, if the bad guys were on semi-auto, the good guys would start taking hits at 75 yards. The officers comment was that full auto was "good to keep the bad guys heads down for a sprint across the street", but not much else in a practical sense. Maybe some of our vets can shed some light or opinions on this?

[KT-45]

Regarding the "firepower saves you" thought, Cooper related a comment from a Viet Nam era Officer, he said that when the bad guys were on full auto with thier AK's, the good guys could get within about 25 yards before taking many hits, if the bad guys were on semi-auto, the good guys would start taking hits at 75 yards. The officers comment was that full auto was "good to keep the bad guys heads down for a sprint across the street", but not much else in a practical sense. Maybe some of our vets can shed some light or opinions on this?

Colonel Cooper hated the hi-cap semi-autos ("crunchentickers" in his opinion). Hitting with one bullet is far more important than the "spray and pray" tactic of throwing 13-15 rounds in the general direction of the bad guy.

A couple of quotes come to mind:

"Always stand still until you're done shooting. Nothin' scares a man more than for you to be standin' still when you should be runnin' like a spotted assed ape." - Willie Nelson, "Barbarosa"

There was a Virginia county sheriff that said (of his .45 Colt Peacemaker), "If you can't solve the problem with five shots then throw your pistol in the river and run like Hell!"

[Tennessee Hayre]

That made me laugh (Good One)