OT - World - Russia v Georgia - are you guys watching this?

[Old Ironsights]

I support Georgia--Maj CT Lester US Army SF

Why? I can understand NOT supporting Russia, but why support the Georgians over South Ossetia?

Because they fought alongside us in our Iraq venure. Kinda like a bar fight. You back your bud's play. (And for all we know this may have been a coordinated event...)

So, South Ossetia should not be allowed to vie for independence? I agree that they are going to regret allying with russia to do it, but since when did we get into the business of PREVENTING independence movements?

[don Tomás]

(And for all we know this may have been a coordinated (preplanned?) event...)

I suspect that is the case, judging from the timing (Olympics), and all the attack elements that were ready to go. Tough to make that many tanks appear that quickly...
Tom

[El Mac]

Because they fought alongside us in our Iraq venure. Kinda like a bar fight. You back your bud's play. (And for all we know this may have been a coordinated event...)

So, South Ossetia should not be allowed to vie for independence? I agree that they are going to regret allying with russia to do it, but since when did we get into the business of PREVENTING independence movements?

Hey, now might be a good time to move and get in on some of that seccessionist action.

[Old Time Hunter]

OI, you don't see any culpability on the side of Russia do you? You don't think that Russia prompted the South Ossetians to antagonise the Georgians? You think the Russians might have had a mobilized force just hanging around? This whole thing was premeditated by the Russians. Actually had dinner last night and got into a conversation with a couple of young Russians (here on college work visas) and one Ukrainian and a Romanian. For most of the year they all live, eat, and breathe the geopolitical powder keg of the ex Soviet sphere of influance. The two Russian ( boys, age 21 and 22) were prouder than a peacock about the goings on over in Georgia, actually cheered the Russian troops and loudly cheered Putin. They both commented that it is about time the U.S. and it's allies realize that Russia is again the most powerful country within the eastern European area and the Caucuses. In their chest thump'n they wished the US, NATO, or any one else to come to the aid of Russian (their words not mine) satellite areas so they could stomp them like the sissies they are. Both the Romainian and the Ukrainian admitted they are very concerned over this. The Ukrainian said his father contacted him on Tuesday and asked him to look into a permanent visa for either Canada or the US. The Romainian thinks that the Russians will influence their next election, threating that if they do not elect a pro-Russian government that they will pay also. Tell ya what, General Patton was right!

[Old Ironsights]

I absolutely see culpability on the side of Russia, and they are totally out of line for bombing Tsibli etc.

But THEY DID NOT SHOOT FIRST.

I can't attack my neighbor just because he dumped a bunch of pit bulls on his side of the fence, and I can't rightly complain that he let the dogs loose once I started sniping at him from my bedroom window.

This is what the Founders were on about when they warned of "entangling alliances".

[Old Time Hunter]

OI, you are being myopic, this isn't about Georgia or the independence of South Ossetia, this is about re-forming the old Soviet Block. This is about Russia controlling both the political and the economies of ex-satellite Soviet countries and not allowing their freedom of choice. Completely ignoring their soveriegn nation status. This is about stealing lunches from the smaller kids in school and saying...yea, and what can you do about it...'noth'n. The Ukrainian guy is really upset, he thinks that he will not have a real nation to go home to.

[Old Ironsights]

You know, you're right. To hell with Ethics and letting people make their own bad decisions. Let's get into a shooting war with Russia. Maybe I'll even get my old job back putting together Tac Nukes. It's not like we will have a country ourselves in a few years anyway.

[O.S.O.K.]

OI, you don't see any culpability on the side of Russia do you? You don't think that Russia prompted the South Ossetians to antagonise the Georgians? You think the Russians might have had a mobilized force just hanging around? This whole thing was premeditated by the Russians. Actually had dinner last night and got into a conversation with a couple of young Russians (here on college work visas) and one Ukrainian and a Romanian. For most of the year they all live, eat, and breathe the geopolitical powder keg of the ex Soviet sphere of influance. The two Russian ( boys, age 21 and 22) were prouder than a peacock about the goings on over in Georgia, actually cheered the Russian troops and loudly cheered Putin. They both commented that it is about time the U.S. and it's allies realize that Russia is again the most powerful country within the eastern European area and the Caucuses. In their chest thump'n they wished the US, NATO, or any one else to come to the aid of Russian (their words not mine) satellite areas so they could stomp them like the sissies they are. Both the Romainian and the Ukrainian admitted they are very concerned over this. The Ukrainian said his father contacted him on Tuesday and asked him to look into a permanent visa for either Canada or the US. The Romainian thinks that the Russians will influence their next election, threating that if they do not elect a pro-Russian government that they will pay also. Tell ya what, General Patton was right!

+1

And I think now is the time to face down Putin - it will be the least "expensive" right now. Of course, if he wants the fight, then maybe there's a better strategic move to acheive the end than direct confrontation. Issac Asimov said in the Foudation Trilogy "violence is the last resort of the incompetent". Meaning that truely adept people find a way to get what they want w/o violence. But sometimes it's just the only way...

[tomtex]

If on the 13 of Aug. The State of Calf with the help of Russians agents , Tried to break away from the USA , and the US military move to stop the state of Calif. and just happened to kill some Russians and Calif traitors that firing on them , then the Russian attack America saying we are killing Russian in Calf . Who then fired the first shot

Maj. CT Lester US Army SF I,m for Georgie

[tomtex]

If on the 13 of Aug. The State of Calf with the help of Russians agents , Tried to break away from the USA , and the US military move to stop the state of Calif. and just happened to kill some Russians and Calif traitors that firing on them , then the Russian attack America saying we are killing Russian in Calf . Who then fired the first shot

Maj. CT Lester US Army SF I,m for Georgia

[Old Ironsights]

I wish to god California would seceed...

[lever-4-life]

But I don't want to be a refuge!

[Old Ironsights]

But I don't want to be a refuge!

Trust me, you'd like it better here... we like guns and gun owners.

[L8agin]

Just cool it guys. Wait tell we hear from Obama on the correct way to handel this. Then I will feel secure
L8

[44LVR]

Wait tell we hear from Obama on the correct way to handel this. Then I will feel secure L8

44

[Jason_W]

I'm surprised there has been no mention of nuclear war in this thread (if there was, I missed it).

I doubt any major conflict between the US and Russia would stay conventional for very long. The minute one side got a little bit desperate, the H-bombs would be a flyin'. There are no winners in a nuclear war, unless you consider dominion over a huge parking lot to be winning.

[Old Ironsights]

I'm surprised there has been no mention of nuclear war in this thread (if there was, I missed it).

I doubt any major conflict between the US and Russia would stay conventional for very long. The minute one side got a little bit desperate, the H-bombs would be a flyin'. There are no winners in a nuclear war, unless you consider dominion over a huge parking lot to be winning.

I did, if somewhat obliquely. One page back, third from the bottom.

I'm an old Arty Tac Nuke Tech - you're danged skippy I know the doctrine when it comes to dealing with the Russians.

But hey, with the Right and Left of what's left of this country swinging sledgehammers at its foundation, we may as well go all out toe-to-toe with the Russians.

Since nobody cares about the Constitution at home we can become just like them sinding troops hither and thither for as long as humanity survives.

I'm sure the Mexicans and Chinese won't mind moving in once we collapse.

[donw]

i did too... in a round-about way...i did not use the word "nuclear"...but there should be a foregone conclusion that is to be surmised anytime one speaks of going to war with russia.

[O.S.O.K.]

Well, keep in mind this isn't 1965. Most of the delivery methods can now reliably be stopped - though not tactical nukes from artillery and missiles are still very scary - one multiple warhead nasty getting through would mean hundereds of thousands dead instantly.

I certainly don't want war and am not beating the drums.

The thing is, what WE want has no bearing on what Russia does.

Our culture has become so Me Me Me and so Now Now Now that people can't see that the way forward is long term planning with strategic moves designed to aheive the end with the lowest outlay of $$$ and lives.

I believe that is what Bush has been doing with Afganastan and Iraq. I think this will be shown in the long run to be the correct path - or one of the best paths that could have been taken.

We didn't want to be attacked on 9-11 but it happened.

Some say that we should have been meek in our foriegn affairs and that would have prevented 9-11. Mr. Clinton? Are you kidding - how much more impotent could we have been?

The only reason we weren't attacked during the Klintoon years is because we were living in the wake of the work done by Regan and Bush One. Russia was in ruins. China was happily working on building its economy infrastructure. The middle east was fomenting but still recovering from the russian afganastan war and iran and iraq were fighting each other.

In short, we had a free period to take advantage of but it was squandered. Klintoon was too busy getting serviced by interns and offing troublesome aids (Vince Foster).

The people that think we are to blame for 9-11 don't know the mentality of the islamic jihadist very well. The mere fact that we are having influence in their neck of the woods is cause for attack. They are lunatics. They hate levi's and coke and mcdonalds and they hate - I mean hate us. They cut-off people's heads to make a good video... we can't fully comprehend this level of hatred.

We didn't want to get drawn into the war with the axis powers in WWII - but it was that or face them later - after they defeated europe and russia and retooled. They would have been after us like flies on merde. We couldn't understand how evil hitler was at first. Stalin.... good God.

You can't hide and hope the world won't find you. You can't sit back and watch and build a wall either - our economy now relies on international trade and our ability to protect and defend it. We must take on the russian threat if we wish to exist in prosperity and freedom. If we can do it in some sly, non-military way - then hoorah! Like the Foundation did with the Imperium in Asimov's Foundation Trilogy. They used economic pressure and clever psycho-political knowledge to nudge things their way. Kind of like geopolitical (or in their case) galactopolitical jujitsu. But that's a contrived universe - we live on a small blue planet with all kinds of realities that must be delt with.

Bottom line, freedom is indeed, not free.

[tomtex]

The Russian KGB leaders will be killed or replaced before the Russian Military lets its country use nuclear weapons against the West. That is So long as they're country is not attacked first. Bottom line is the Russian people want to be part of the west ,not the KGB past.,If the presser build up is slow ,the Russian KBG type of government will break.

Maj CT Lester

[Blaine]

A more likely event would be a Rag setting off a stolen or bought nuke brought across the border from Canada or Mexico....the signature would be Russian and that's all she wrote.

[O.S.O.K.]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,403462,00.html

-------------------

GORI, Georgia — Russia's foreign minister declared Thursday that the world "can forget about" Georgia's territorial integrity, and American and Georgian officials said Russia appeared to be targeting military infrastructure — including radars and patrol boats at a Black Sea naval base and oil hub.

An AP Television News crew in the oil port city of Poti saw one destroyed Georgian military boat, and two Russian armored vehicles and two Russian transport trucks. Soldiers who identified themselves as Russian peacekeepers blocked the crew from going further.

Russia's president met in the Kremlin with the leaders of Georgia's two separatist provinces — a clear sign that Moscow could absorb the regions. The comments from Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov appeared to come as a challenge to the United States, where President Bush has called for Russia to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Georgia."

The Russian refusal to withdraw from Georgia presents a challenge to the cease-fire agreement designed to end seven days of fighting. The EU-sponsored accord had envisioned Russian and Georgian forces returning to their original positions.

-------------
"One can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity because, I believe, it is impossible to persuade South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree with the logic that they can be forced back into the Georgian state," Lavrov told reporters.

The White House bluntly rejected Lavrov's message.

"Our position on Georgia's territorial integrity is not going to change no matter what anybody says," White House press secretary Dana Perino said Thursday. "And so I would consider that to be bluster from the foreign minister of Russia. We will ignore it."

Georgia's coast guard said Russian troops had burned patrol boats and destroyed radars and other equipment at the port city of Poti, home to Georgia's main naval base and a major hub for oil exports to Europe. The APTN crew saw one destroyed boat, about 60 feet long.

On Poti's outskirts, the APTN crew followed a different convoy of Russian troops as they searched a forest for Georgian military equipment.

Nogovitsyn avoided comment on the Russian presence in Poti, saying only that Russian forces were operating within their "area of responsibility."

Another APTN camera crew saw Russian soldiers and military vehicles parked Thursday inside the Georgian government's elegant, heavily-gated residence in the western town of Zugdidi. Some of the soldiers wore blue peacekeeping helmets, others wore green camouflage helmets, all were heavily armed. The scene underlined how closely the soldiers Russia calls peacekeepers are allied with its military.

"The Russian troops are here. They are occupying," Ygor Gegenava, an elderly Zugdidi resident told the APTN crew. "We don't want them here. What we need is friendship and good relations with the Russian people."

Georgia, bordering the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.

A steady, dejected trickle of Georgian refugees fled the front line in overloaded cars, trucks and tractor-pulled wagons, heading to Tbilisi on the road from Gori. One Soviet-era car carried eight people, including a mother and a baby in the front seat. The open back door of a small blue van revealed at least a dozen people crowded inside.

The Russian General Prosecutor's office on Thursday said it has formally opened a genocide probe into Georgian treatment of South Ossetians. For its part, Georgia this week filed a suit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, alleging murder, rape and mass expulsions in both provinces.

More homes in deserted ethnic Georgian villages were apparently set ablaze Wednesday, sending clouds of smoke over the foothills north of Tskhinvali, capital of breakaway South Ossetia.

One Russian colonel, who refused to give his name, blamed the fires on looters.

Those with ethnic Georgian backgrounds who have stayed behind — like 70-year-old retired teacher Vinera Chebataryeva — seem increasingly unwelcome in South Ossetia.

As she stood sobbing in her wrecked apartment near the center of Tskhinvali, Chebataryeva said a skirmish between Ossetian soldiers and a Georgian tank had gouged the two gaping shell holes in her wall, bashing in her piano and destroying her furniture.

Janna Kuzayeva, an ethnic Ossetian neighbor, claimed the Georgian tank fired the shell at Chebataryeva's apartment.

"We know for sure her brother spied for Georgians," said Kuzayeva. "We let her stay here, and now she's blaming everything on us."

North of Tskhinvali, a number of former Georgian communities have been abandoned in the last few days. "There isn't a single Georgian left in those villages," said Robert Kochi, a 45-year-old South Ossetian.

But he had little sympathy for his former Georgian neighbors. "They wanted to physically uproot us all," he said. "What other definition is there for genocide?"

----------------------------------------

[O.S.O.K.]

And the plot thickens - Bush made a good move here IMHO

------------------------------------
U.S. and Poland set missile deal
By Thom Shanker and Nicholas Kulish Published: August 15, 2008


WASHINGTON: The United States and Poland reached a long-stalled deal on Thursday to place an American missile defense base on Polish territory, in the strongest reaction so far to Russia's military operation in Georgia.

Russia reacted angrily, saying that the move would worsen relations with the United States that have already been strained severely in the week since Russian troops entered separatist enclaves in Georgia, a close American ally.

But the deal reflected growing alarm in countries like Poland, once a conquered Soviet client state, about a newly rich and powerful Russia's intentions in its former cold war sphere of power. In fact, negotiations dragged on for 18 months — but were completed only as old memories and new fears surfaced in recent days.

Those fears were codified to some degree in what Polish and American officials characterized as unusual aspects of the final deal: that at least temporarily American soldiers would staff air defense sites in Poland oriented toward Russia, and that the United States would be obliged to defend Poland in case of an attack with greater speed than required under NATO, of which Poland is a member.

Polish officials said the agreement would strengthen the mutual commitment of the United States to defend Poland, and vice versa. "Poland and the Poles do not want to be in alliances in which assistance comes at some point later — it is no good when assistance comes to dead people," the Polish prime minister, Donald Tusk, said on Polish television. "Poland wants to be in alliances where assistance comes in the very first hours of — knock on wood — any possible conflict."

[Bramble]

OSOK

I have been reading this thread and for the first time ever I have to agree with FW

South Ossetia had a referendum nearly 10 years ago. 90% of the population wished to remove themselves from Georgian control. These people are Russian citizens and have Russian passports.

Georgia under cover of the olympic opening cynicaly launched a massive bombardment of these civillians.

America thought nothing of invading Grenada to support its citizens. Margret Thatcher sent a task force 7000 miles to remove the Argentinians from the Falklands.
Why does anybody expect Russia to stand by and let this agression pass?

Yes the Russians are over the border of South Ossetia, however Thatcher ordered the attack of airstrips on the Argentine mainland in our conflict.
I see no distinction.

China is not Russias "commie friend". Russia is not a communist country it is a democracy, not disimilar to yours or mine. In fact there is very little love lost between Russia and China.

It is all very well for Bush to posture about this, but it will not be his children that die if Europe goes to war again. It will be mine.

[O.S.O.K.]

You sure are picking you information selectively.... and ignoring a lot of recent news...

Who governs Grenada and Argentina now?

We can find all kinds of reasons to rationalize away Russia's obvious desire to expand their sphere of influence back to their previous soviet size... and trust me, they will not be out of Georgia until they are kicked out - they are there to stay and intend on making Georgia a posession.

If they are successfull at their planned expansion, then we will be facing a much larger and more potent threat.

And Russia is a democracy my buttocks. They are a democracy much like Pakastan has been a democracy... Putin is pulling the strings.

In other words, I don't agree with your assertions or conclusions.

But here, we are free to engage in a dialog.

[bunklocoempire]

Let's not be selective about history and ignore past news...

Patrick Buchanan weighs in: http://buchanan.org/blog/2008/08/pjb-bl ... ar-baiting

A few excerpts:

-"People who start wars don’t get to decide how and when they end."

-"How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?"

-"For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia’s space and getting into Russia’s face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost — in Tbilisi."

In this particular blog Pat doesn't mention the IMF or the WTO "interests" in Georgia that some would call "U.S. interests", do not confuse IMF, WTO interests with SOVEREIGN U.S. interests.

Most media never make this distinction, it simply holds up the commie threat, & yells boo -and the politicians laugh as the folks convince themselves, -best not to mention the money.



Bunkloco

[tomtex]

loco, what military service did you serve in ? Look loco the Russians invaded Georgia against its will. If the Warsaw pack invaded Western Europe against it's will it would be World war 3. Loco we didn't invade Georgia,the Russian KGB Gov. did

[FWiedner]

The people in Georgia are Russian. They were being held hostage as involuntary citizens of a foreign state.

Russia is protecting it's citizens.

[tomtex]

Fwledner, tell that to a Georgian ,

[bunklocoempire]

loco, what military service did you serve in ? Look loco the Russians invaded Georgia against its will. If the Warsaw pack invaded Western Europe against it's will it would be World war 3. Loco we didn't invade Georgia,the Russian KGB Gov. did

I am currently, and always have served in the U.S.T.P. -that is- United States Tax Payer, all my family and friends are also serving. No disrepect intended. I have not served in the military, my wife was Air Force, my father was Navy, my cousin Marines, and all four -yes four, grandfathers were Army.

In this Georgia thing, Georgia struck the first blow. It begs the question Why? Thus the Buchanan blog, Pat and myself don't always agree, but on this one we do. In an earlier post, it was likend to having a friend that starts something and the notion we have to help that misguided friend. I don't keep "friends" that start things they shouldn't have, it's dangerous and costly, -no matter what the "benefits" they might bring.

This isn't isolationism, it's non-intervention, and non-intervention is good for our soveriegnty, and soveriegnty is good for our Liberty.

Our founding fathers understood this, scary as it may seem, they chose Liberty over "security".


Bunkloco

[44LVR]

In this Georgia thing, Georgia struck the first blow. It begs the question Why?

I'm having just a little problem understanding this sort of thinking. I guess I am too black and white vs grey. That is what my wife always blames me for anyway!

I don't remember what year it was but Georgia became a recognized Independant state by the UN with both Ossetia and Abkhazia as a recognized part of Georgia. NOT Russia. Russia's arguement is that 80% of Ossetia has Russian passports therefore it becomes a part of Russia. That leaves out that in (I think) 1991 over 100,000 Georgians were driven out of Ossetia and 200,000 Georgians were driven out of Abkhazia, not to mentioned those slaughtered, just to end up with that 80% left with Russian passports. Kind of a slick way to operate, huh?

Now, some describe the South Ossetian separatist government as "dependent on Russia," which "supplies two thirds of their annual budget," and reports are that "Russia's state-controlled gas giant Gazprom is building new gas pipelines and infrastructure" worth hundreds of millions of dollars there. So that in MY mind explains why Russia is so desperate to annex both Ossetia and also Abkhazia. Power and money.

So here is my question. If Southern Texas or Southern California decided to break away from the US and join Mexico, simply because it was decided that it was mostly Mexicans living there (perhaps after Mexico helped drive out Americans from the area so what was left had mostly Mexican passports) what would the difference be? Should America just say let it go? Or would we step in militarily and stop it? I don't see the difference between the two scenarios.

44

[Old Ironsights]

...So here is my question. If Southern Texas or Southern California decided to break away from the US and join Mexico, simply because it was decided that it was mostly Mexicans living there (perhaps after Mexico helped drive out Americans from the area so what was left had mostly Mexican passports) what would the difference be? Should America just say let it go? Or would we step in militarily and stop it? I don't see the difference between the two scenarios....

I thought we learned our lesson the last time brother took up arms against brother to prohibit self determination...

[GANJIRO]

So here is my question. If Southern Texas or Southern California decided to break away from the US and join Mexico, simply because it was decided that it was mostly Mexicans living there (perhaps after Mexico helped drive out Americans from the area so what was left had mostly Mexican passports) what would the difference be? Should America just say let it go? Or would we step in militarily and stop it? I don't see the difference between the two scenarios.

44

Isn't that what Texas did- break away from Mexico because of it's then majority white population originating from eastern US?

[Blackhawk]

This is a good example of why I could never be a high political offical. It black and white to me too.

Russia needs to get out of Georgia. This "Security Zone" that allows the 4 miles into Georgia from the OS side? A flat out NO! If 80% of the OS population holds Russian passports then they need to go back to Russia cause OS is a part of the Georgia whole.

Putting missiles in Poland would be just one of the steps I would take. IMHO, Russia cannot and will not be able to best us in warfare, outside of nukes being used. Their tanks are good, their soldiers are tough, but our air power will take care of more than they understand.

I'm a big supporter of America having a large and power military. I think our government should invest in more US companies that make/supply our military. And this is a prime example of why.

Johnny

[tomtex]

If I said ( Georgia struck the first blow : ) ,then Blackhawk and 44lvr have now won this Texan over to their point of view

[Hobie]

...So here is my question. If Southern Texas or Southern California decided to break away from the US and join Mexico, simply because it was decided that it was mostly Mexicans living there (perhaps after Mexico helped drive out Americans from the area so what was left had mostly Mexican passports) what would the difference be? Should America just say let it go? Or would we step in militarily and stop it? I don't see the difference between the two scenarios....

I thought we learned our lesson the last time brother took up arms against brother to prohibit self determination...

The lesson was that fighting to maintain the state works... You don't have to agree but that is what happened.

[Hobie]

So here is my question. If Southern Texas or Southern California decided to break away from the US and join Mexico, simply because it was decided that it was mostly Mexicans living there (perhaps after Mexico helped drive out Americans from the area so what was left had mostly Mexican passports) what would the difference be? Should America just say let it go? Or would we step in militarily and stop it? I don't see the difference between the two scenarios.

44

Isn't that what Texas did- break away from Mexico because of it's then majority white population originating from eastern US?

Texas broke away from Mexico (as did California) then joined the USofA. Iceland separated from Denmark. Finland left Russia. Poland back and forth over the centuries. And so forth and so on. Strength determines the outcome and not just "physical" or military strength. Look at Israel, itself nearly bereft of assets at first and created out of whole cloth (as was Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, etc.)

The Russians ARE fighting for oil and control of Europe. Putin is not communist (I suppose you could say) but more of a Tsar under a different title.

[44LVR]

Putin is not communist (I suppose you could say)

I cannot imagine ANYONE on earth more communist than Putin. Anyone?

44

[FWiedner]

Hu Jintao?

[Paladin]

To those that think that Iraq is a waste of time and that this situation is non of our business I say that there were many at the time that thought the nazi advance in Eruope was non of our business as well.

In retrospect, it is obvious that Germany would have succeeded in conquering all of Europe and probably Russia as well had we not become involved. And then we would have been faced with a horrible enemy that would probably have developed the atomic bomb before us - not to mention fully developed all of the high tech military hardware that they had invented - like the jet fighter for example. They would then be a very real "our business".

I tend to look at Iraq in a "macro" way. The long-term ramifications of a free democracy being established right smack dab in the middle of the region. It is actually the "cheapest" spend in order to accomplish the "almost impossible" in the region. This is my view.

And the sequence of events and the situation in Georgia is this: The Ossentians are renegade province that is part of a recognized nation. The Russians have been doing everything that they can to entice this province to revolt and break away from Georgia - including accepting their visas as Russian and giving aid, etc. Putin wants to regain control of the former satellite nations of the USSR. If you are "up" on what he's said and what he's done - you would know this as a fact.

A good analogy would be Russia, China, North and South Korea. Was it right for the US to come to Korea's aid? I think so.

You can have whatever opinion about that you want being this is a free country My personal feelings are that we exist in a global economy and want to play in a global way, so we must defend our interests... globally.

If we want to become isolationists and only play globally in an economic way - we can, but not for long as China, Russia, Iran, etc. will assert themselves militarily and cut off our manhood so to speak.

To use a schoolyard analogy, we can't ignore bullies and hope they will go away. The bullies must be delt with or they will rule the playground. There are no teachers to keep them in line in the world.

That's the way I see it. And frankly, I don't understand how anybody can't see this...

Sorry if I'm insulting anyone with this reply, I just feel compelled to assert my free speach as well

+1

[Bramble]

And Russia is a democracy my buttocks. They are a democracy much like Pakastan has been a democracy... Putin is pulling the strings.

OSOK

Your posterior notwithstanding.

Russia voted for Putins political party.
As a matter of fact far more of the population voted as a whole and Putin has far more of a mandate than any US president in recent times.

Putin is "pulling the strings" because he is the Priminister of Russia.

The only reason that the US state department has its knickers in a twist about this is because of the Gorgian oil pipeline that effects the profits of the oil companies that run your political system.
There are far worse things going on all over the world, Zimbabwe being a prime example. I don't see Condi flying over there to sort out that situation.
You may do what you like but I will not send my children to die suporting a stupid, loudmouthed, Gorgian regime.
In any event the US will have plenty of time to think about it, if history repeats itself, it was 2 years late for the last 2 European wars after all.

[O.S.O.K.]

Well, I do understand your logic. And, I am in no hurry to send my kids off to war either.

The thing is, that this is not about oil and its not about protecting a loud mouthed former soviet satelite country for the principle of the thing.

It's about containing a potentially huge problem.

Pull back. Way back and look at the big picture so to speak.

If you are one of the folks that thinks that Bush has made all of his decisions for petty or foolish reasons, you will not "get" what I'm relating here.

I trust what he's done in Iraq and Afganistan and believe that it was for the greater good of our country.

I think that he moved masterfully in this situation by using a pawn that was held in reserve to check Russia's move. I am speaking of our agreement with Poland for the missile defense system. Not that Poland is a pawn -the agreement itself is though.

What I am getting at is that we must not be penny wise and pound foolish to quote B. Franklin IIRC.

Bush is not a super intellect. No doubt about it. However, he has a very good measure of that etherial quality: "common sense". He surrounds himself with knowledge and talent. He takes council from super intellects.

I pray to the Lord that our next POTUS is as competent.

[FWiedner]

Instead of trying to dictate policy to other soverign nations conducting their own affairs, we have a little war of our own that our president should think about resolving. The mote in his eye, as it were. It's a war which has resulted in the trampling of American liberties at home, has solidified the emnity of nations against us, has put generations of Americans into a position of unrecoverable debt to the largest Communist nation on the planet, and allowed the Russian block alliance to re-emerge as a global adversary. Ah yes, the competence of George W. Bush.

It's not our government's job to police the world. It's their job to police our borders. While they focus on dictating to everyone else on the planet they leave America unguarded and vulnerable to attack, and that lack of attention is costing us our freedom.

Sorry, I'm not buying the "common sense" thing. If our next president is equally competent, we won't have to worry about how old the girls on China's olympic team are, because we'll be cheering for them as "our" team.

[JP_TX]

Just a few observations outside the box.

1. To Russian intellectuals the greatest teacher of strategy is not war college, it is chess.
2. Is it just me or doesn't the Russian take over of Georgia look like each and every move was planned and calculated on the basis of possible responses by the US, UN, NATO and lastly Georgia itself. ie: chess! To win the game with the least resistance

Beginning with the seeding of the population of Osessia and the other "breakway" state with Russian expatriots, Russians and Russian leaning Georgians.

First they waited till the world press was looking in another direction. The Olympics in China.

Next and more importantly the Congress of the US was in recess and away from Washington DC campaigning for the November elections. And, President Bush was in China at the games. Putin was scheduled in advance to be in China as a diversion as well.

Next they began shooting accross the Osessian/Georgian border.

Next the Russians moved strike forces to staging locations at the border.

When the Georgian Goverment took the bait and moved against Osessia, the Russians moved as planned into Georgia in force while executing a global news disinformation campaign stipulating they were there to prevent "Ethnic Cleansing" by the Georgians forces. This had the desired effect of confusing the issue to allow Russian forces to make further gains into Georiga proper. (OSOK's comparison of Hitler and the Sudatenland was absolutely correct.)

Putin had nothing to fear from the EU as he knows they are a pathetic band of toothless socialists who are now captive users of Russian Oil and Gas and winter is just a few months away.

The UN was no help as Russia has a VETO on the UN Secuity councl.

They struck BEFORE Georgia could be accepted into NATO thus avoiding a triggered response from that US lead body.

They analysed the possible outcome of the US elections for President and made the obvious choice to avoid awaiting even the possiblity of McCain being elected as he was a stalwart friend of the Georgian Pres. Much better to face down Bush who has only a few months left to his term and no congressional support. They wouldn't have tried this with Bush even 3 years ago. The man does not scare and they know it and 3 years agon he had a Republican contolled congress.

All these moves were calculated for months in advance. It couldn't have been spontanious as their were too many global variables to consider before taking action.

Next after taking over Georgia they continuously released ferocious growling warnings of dire consiquences if they were attacked by outside forces while simultaniously issuing bogus statments that they were withdrawing while they were actually reinforcing their positions and using the idiot press as their mouthpiece. The only media that had reporters on the ground and reporting the actual activities was FOX News.

Well that is just an observation of events that it is too late to do anything about.

Now another observation based on the conversations that have been inspired by these events namely a fight between the US and Russia. Regardless of what you may think about the next reasonable step to be taken I think a studied review of the pictures from the front are very revealing.

Look at the equipment that the Russians are using, It's all vintage WW ll design. It appears that the most current equipment available for those forces are the fighter jets and fighter bombers.

I mention this only to point out that while it is doubtful and perhaps even foolhardy for the US to get into a shooting war with Russia, I agree with others that this is a European problem and not ours. I would say confidently that Russia absolutely positively doesn't want to get into a shooting war with the US regardless how loudly the Bear growls.

Lets not forget that only a few years ago the US Military proved that Russian Military technology was virtually useless against the US forces as they rolled though Iraq like a knife through butter when Saddam had paid billions for the best defenses that the Russians would sell them.

Lastly, for those who fear an escalation to nuclear war, the MAD scenario still obtains. Firing a rocket at the US would erase Russia from the planet regardless of the effect it would have on us. You can't win a chess match by losing!

So the conclusion is that this was largely done to get the EU's attention with the least risk of coming face to face with the US. In that they succeeded. However it points out clearly how dangerous the world remains and the choices for the elections in November should be based on something more tangible than "Change"

The Georgians have experienced "Change" and I don't think they like it very much.

JP

[FWiedner]

Wasn't McCain vetted as one of Kerry's possible running mates in 2004?

Didn't Joe Biden support that particular nomination?

[O.S.O.K.]

FWiedner - yes, we are in debt - that is one point that I agree is attrocious and can only lead to pain and suffering here.

Do you think obamination will increase or decrease that debt?

I think McCain will decrease it - if the Senate and House allow him to. He has always proposed spending cuts - which is the only answer - that in conjunction with wise tax policy - ie: not taxing the sh*! out of us.

I could go into a diatribe about Regan-Bush-Clinton-Bush - the flow of events and policies and causality. But I don't have time right now - need to go make some money....

[tomtex]

Bush is not a chess player, he's a checker player, when he comes up on a ***, he jumps him. Lets hope McCain is a checker player

[tomtex]

The road from Russia to Israel and oil, leads thru Georgia