POLITICS - U. S. "no longer a Christian Nation";

[crs]

In case you missed this Obama gaffe, SENT TO ME BY AN OLD FRIEND IN LOUISIANA.

Subject: U. S. "no longer a Christian Nation"]
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 03:31:09 +0000

Please send this on to your friends, spend time each day in prayer for our country, and get out and vote in November.

Dear Friends,

As I was listening to a news program last night, I watched in horror as Barack Obama made the statement with pride. . ."we are no longer a Christian nation; we are now a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, . . . As with so many other statements I've heard him (and his wife) make, I never thought I'd see the day that I'd hear something like that from a presidential candidate in this nation. To think our forefathers fought and died for the right for our nation to be a Christian nation--and to have this man say with pride that we are no longer that. How far this nation has come from what our founding fathers intended it to be.

I hope that each of you will do what I'm doing now--send your concerns, written simply and sincerely, to the Christians on your email list. With God's help, and He is still in control of this nation and all else, we can show this man and the world in November that we are, indeed, still a Christian nation!

Please pray for our nation!

[donw]

imo, this nation, has by way of complacency on the part of believers in God, has been/is being legislated right out of existance by the left wing and their supporters.

i watched the 'authorities' roll the ten commandments out of the courthouse in alabama and i was horrified that the christian sector DID NOTHING...a few years ago we allowed ONE moronic woman to have prayer removed from public school...we watch in horror as abortion is moving to a new level: live birth. we watch as God is openly attacked in the public school system by atheists and non-believers. we watched the supreme court remove "under God" from the pledge of allegence and DID NOTHING. we watch the darwinists attack the creation as being a "theory", yet, darwin himself renounced his own theory and there is not any REAL existing evidence to support his theory. a bible or cross is very neary prohibited in public anymore (the case involving the attempted removal of the cross from mt soledad in san diego because ONE boor said it is "offensive", comes to mind) and yet it's commonplace to see women wearing burkas and a city in minnesota allows daily prayers of islam to be publicly broadcast from mosques.

newt gingrich recently did a presentation of the founding of this nation as being founded under A FIRM BELIEF IN GOD, whether or not obama or any one else, believes it or not.

there exists enough evidence just in and on our nations monuments and public buildings (such as moses dipicted with the ten commandments) to support a GOD BELIEVING culture/society did/does exist and is legimate.

as christians, we are taught to be tolerant...that's what got us into this mess...

muslims are taught to NOT tolerate ANY "infidel" (non-believer of islam)

my beliefs in God are NOT open to debate.

think what you wish...this country was founded by believers in God...like or not!

[C. Cash]

Thanks for the heads up CRS. Sad that our Christian heritage is now so hidden from view, while we scratch our heads and wonder how everything in our country went to Heck in a handbasket.

Thanksgiving Proclamation

[New York, 3 October 1789]

By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be-- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks--for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war--for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions-- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually--to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed--to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord--To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us--and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

Go: Washington

[Ysabel Kid]

That has been the goal of the left for decades - to destroy Christianity and thus the moral fabric of this free country. After that is gone, taking the rest of the country to the earthly hell of socialism will be a cake walk...

[C. Cash]

Your on it YK. No moral compass and unarmed.....let's see that's been tried a few times...wonder what happened??????

[rjohns94]

a few great political powers come to mind that followed that way, Rome, Persia, Greece ..... etc.

[C. Cash]

Couple more come to mind also Mike like Nazi Germany....Russia(USSR).....Cambodia.......China........The Armenians......etc.....but 1/2 of our Country wants to go back to those principles and be like Europe??? Just preaching to the Choir I know.

[FWiedner]

Christian extremists have caused ordinary folks to turn their backs on popular Christianity, just like Islamic extremists are causing oridinary folks to be less than enthused with Islam.

I think most folks in this land consider themselves as Christians, but they refuse to stand with the loud-mouths and the haters, because that is not their brand of faith.

If political-minded power-hungry "Christians" want to hold someone responsible for their despite, they need to look in the mirror.

[Charles]

This country is not now, has never been or was intended to be a Christian nation. The founders acknowledged that we were one nation under God, not under Jesus. They intended some form of generic Judeo/Christian diety. We have always been a religious pluralistic society.

Regardless of the history, the public morals, crooked politics, materialistic values, policies of the goverment and judgmental nature of the Christian right would make Jesus turn away in shame. There is no way the Christ would claim this nation as His and all our words and fantasy to the contrary won't change the fact that the United States, just like all other nations comes under the judgement of God.

[adirondakjack]

Our Christian heritage has been the fig leaf for much evil and not near as much good as we could have hoped for. The recently departed Sen. Helms picked his friends based on faith, including murderous dictators who were "good christians'. the KKK and much of the evil of Jim Crow hid behind church walls. The Catholic church with its endemic child sex abuse and harboring of organized crime in every country in which it is dominant is no great "heritage". Hitler's Germany and Mousolini's Italy were both "Christain", as were/are many tin pot dictatorships throughout central and south america, and wherever it has been spread.
As a heritage, Christian is no better than atheist or Islamic in terms of human rights or high moral ground.

There certainly ARE good, decent, moral folks who are god-fearing christians, but there are just the same kinds of decent folks in any or no church. I don't choose my doctor, lawyer, or auto mechainic based on faith. I choose them based on their cometence. Same for POTUS.

Sorry, can't get worked up over this one, even though I can't stand Obama for other reasons.

[bunklocoempire]

We have always been a Nation of believers, and, unbelievers.

In my opinion (a Christian), when folks talk up our Nation as being "Christian" it erodes more of their own responsibility to their fellow man.

In other words, we've got a group so why should I as an individual have to do as much? It's not always that way, but if you believe you are sinful, you understand that temptation.

Any argument in government can easily be argued with the Liberty argument, not even having to bring Christianity into it.

Time and time again so-called "Christian politicians" will avoid even trying the Liberty argument, this tells me they don't believe in The Words power and they don't understand Liberty.

I see many posts mentioning Obama and Christainity as asking me to vote for the lesser of two evils, would my Savior ask me to choose the lesser of two evils? No, my Savior commands me to do His will, be obediant to authority and choose no evil.

With our government the founders gave us, we are blessed that we are supposed to control government, that is, we are the authority.



Bunkloco

[TedH]

Just about everytime I hear a quote from that man it makes me want to puke.

[C. Cash]

I don't think anyone is saying that our laws were formed to make a Christian nation, but that as a nation made up primarily of Christians, using their own free will and concience, we thus formed laws to create a more just society. It was from that concience that they sought the best ideas and laws. Prove to me that the majority of the "founders" were not Christians...did not believe in Jesus or go to Church, and acted upon their conciences because of their faith. Even Liberal historians acknowledge that the majority of the men who formed this Country were Protestant Christians. Genealogical and historical research has born out to me personally that many were not only Christians in name but in faith and action. Of course this nation has never been, or will be perfect. We have our major flaws and inconsistencies...including immoral politicians and preachers who use Christianity as a front. However, where would this country be if it had not the Christian faith as a foundation early on? Would we have had Free Will to choose how we act out our faith? Would we have made social changes that were unprecendented in modern society as they relate to blacks, women and children? Yep that's a whole nuther can of Constitutional worms there but still, it was Evangelical Christians behind those social changes. Denying the role of the Christian faith as a major influence is a warping of history that serves the purposes of the Left very well. If I had not read their words with my own eyes, I could buy that we were a nation of disinterested and pluralistic "religeous" folk. But, save a few strange birds who don't fit the pattern(Jefferson and Franklin being the most notable), I'm just not buying that the majority of Americans were like that.

[Charles]

C. Cash... You are 100% correct about the role Christians played in the history of this country. The history of this country cannot be understood without understanding the role that Christians have had. Individual Christians and Churches have indeed been "salt, light, and leven" in the world in which they have found themselves. Most older colleges and universities, hositals and such were begun as Christian ministries, are are many current ones. Most social reform movements (i.e. civil rights, abolition, women's sufferage etc) were lead by churches and church people.

This fact does not make this country unique. Many countries in what had been historic "Christendom" have had their society and history formed by Christian people. There are countries developing today who owe a tremendous debt to Christians.

The sticking point in this thread is the ire that some folks take to Obama's comment. I am not a fan of Obama, but he was stating the simple truth that we are not nation of one religion and other faiths are present and influence our culture. My point is this has always been true. Religious pluralism (pluralism simple means more than one) has always been alive in America. While Muslims and their influence is relatively new to this country, Jews, Diests, Agnostics, Atheists, and Mormons have all had their input into what this country is today. The level of influence is somewhat related to their numbers.

The bottom line is there is a world of difference between... 1) This nation's history and culture has been heavly influenced by Christans..and..2) This is a Christian country. These two statments are not even close in content and import, with the former being true and the latter being false.

P.S. Much of the thinking/philosophy of how people relate to their goverment that formed the base line of our country's forming didn't even come from America. The Founding Father's were heavly influnced by British and other political philosphers like John Locke and others.

The adjective "Evangelical" to discribe one group of Christians vis-a-vi anoter group, is a 20 th. Century term unknown to earlier Christians. They were divided and discribed mostly by formal organizations known as denominations.

[adirondakjack]

The thing to remember, while kicking around right VS left and Christian VS secular is, back in the day, the "Christian" aspect was almost a given. It was the different churches, the different flavors" of christianity (different power bases) that fought among each other (particularly in the British Isles, where Catholic VS Church of England still goes on).

Further, those who were then "right wing" conservatives STAYED IN THE OLD COUNTRY. The whole lot that signed the declaration and Constitution were radical lefft wingers by comparison. They wanted a new way, not protection of the old ways. They wanted it to be OK to be a Shaker, a Quaker, a Catholic or even a jew. There were plenty of free thinkers (no GOD in their plan) who might have used "creator" to denote whatever force put it all here, but didn't believe in the bible, jesus or the vicar down the road.

But they included a wide array of beliefs among them. Some were truely radical in their thinking, believing negros were really men and not chattle, and that women COULD be educated despite their anatomy and weaker nerves.....

In other words, they would look at the "evengelical" right of today with some of the same jaundiced eye and mistrust they had of the Church or England and of Rome. These were, by and large, men who wanted DISTANCE between their life of faith and their political life. They wanted the bishop far from the "king", etc.

[C. Cash]

Good point about the Universities Charles. The Big names that we know today as secular institutions began as Seminaries to raise up the Gospel.

Most of us in the US still describe ourselves as Christian. From research done it was supposedly something like 99% of the population in the late 1700's if I recall correctly, and perhaps 60-75% of us now claim to be. I don't know what the current stats are. We could say we are a "Christian nation" by majority, but as with everything it's a bit more complex than that and needs further description.

Adirondack....As for the terms for God that these Founders use......I believe it is just the way they talked then, but in no way implies some ambiguous supreme being. It was the God of the Bible, and his Son that they most often spoke. Why they used words like Savior, His Son, or The Trinity for Jesus I do not know...perhaps out of reverence or custom, or both, I am not sure, but certainly not for the same PC reasons that we have today. It is obvious, when taken with the rest of their words and actions which God they are referring to, and to Christianity in particular.

Obama could never stand in a nation made up primarily made up of Muslims and say..."We're no long a Muslim nation.....we're now Christians, Jews, Hindu's.....etc." He would get beheaded. For that, he should give thanks for those men of the Christian faith who instituted, fought and many times died for that Freedom he has. Give credit where credit is due, and don't forget the One who brung ya!

[Old Ironsights]

The thing to remember, while kicking around right VS left and Christian VS secular is, back in the day, the "Christian" aspect was almost a given. It was the different churches, the different flavors" of christianity (different power bases) that fought among each other (particularly in the British Isles, where Catholic VS Church of England still goes on).

...

The below woodcut from the 1800s pretty much sums it up your point... and WHY there was NEVER to be a "State Religion" in the US...

[Charles]

Cash et. al..... There is a difference between "cultural" Christians and "Practicing Christians".

This country is loaded with Cultural Christians, who like to carry the name, but have never made any serious effort to walk the walk. I often refer to them as "M&BPO" (marriage and burial purposes only) Christians. Even many folks who fill the pews on Sunday morning have never made a serious commitment to Christ. There there are the inoculated Christians, who have received just enough dose of the Gospel to make them immune to the real thing.

So, when a survey is done many folks say they are Christians who are anything but practicing Christians. I don't know what the actual percentage of committed, practicing, walk the walk, Christians are in this country, but that number would be far, far, far, less than what surveys would reflect.

[Old Ironsights]

Cash et. al..... There is a difference between "cultural" Christians and "Practicing Christians".

This country is loaded with Cultural Christians, who like to carry the name, but have never made any serious effort to walk the walk. I often refer to them as "M&BPO" (marriage and burial purposes only) Christians. Even many folks who fill the pews on Sunday morning have never made a serious commitment to Christ. There there are the inoculated Christians, who have received just enough dose of the Gospel to make them immune to the real thing.

So, when a survey is done many folks say they are Christians who are anything but practicing Christians. I don't know what the actual percentage of committed, practicing, walk the walk, Christians are in this country, but that number would be far, far, far, less than what surveys would reflect.

Same same (maybe more so) with Jews.

Far more "non-practicing" or "birth Jews" than even mostly-devout Reform.

(Did you know there is a "BuJew" (Buddhist Jew) Movement? Really... )

[C. Cash]

In the words of Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven...."We all got it comin' kid".

All of us fall short...none of us is good enough...only Christ was good enough. But if you repent and believe that He took/takes away your sin on the Cross, ask him to be Lord over your life and mean it, your in. Not everyone gets hit with a bolt of lightning at that point and no longer struggles with sin/seperation. Lot of Christians with severely stunted growth, committment and relational problems but I can't say that they are not truly Christians. No doubt there are those people but I'm not a good enough judge to say what the majority really is or who individually is. One disturbing trend is the major move away from Biblical truth to a 60's Social Justice agenda.

If anyone finds a Church group where everyone acts sane, predictable and perfectly Christian, your probably in the wrong place, or there's a hold up going on. It's a place for really messed up people to get their focus right, if they are still Biblically based that is.

[w30wcf]

Congress, 1854
The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

George WashingtonJUDGE; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF OF THE CONTINENTAL ARMY; PRESIDENT OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; “FATHER OF HIS COUNTRY”

You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are.

While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.

The blessing and protection of Heaven are at all times necessary but especially so in times of public distress and danger. The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man will endeavor to live and act as becomes a Christian soldier, defending the dearest rights and liberties of his country.

I now make it my earnest prayer that God would… most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of the mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion.
John Quincy Adams
SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR; U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”

My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.7

The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the Divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made “bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God” [Isaiah 52:10].8

In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.

Samuel AdamsSIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; “FATHER OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS

I . . . [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.10

The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe [Proverbs 18:10]. Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.11

I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world . . . that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the Prince of Peace.12

He also called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . .
the peaceful and glorious reign of our Divine Redeemer may be known and enjoyed throughout the whole family of mankind.13
we may with one heart and voice humbly implore His gracious and free pardon through Jesus Christ, supplicating His Divine aid . . . [and] above all to cause the religion of Jesus Christ, in its true spirit, to spread far and wide till the whole earth shall be filled with His glory.14
with true contrition of heart to confess their sins to God and implore forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ our Savior.15

Benjamin FranklinSIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.

Thomas Jefferson
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; DIPLOMAT; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA; SECRETARY OF STATE; THIRD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.64

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.65

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.

Noah Webster
REVOLUTIONARY SOLDIER; JUDGE; LEGISLATOR; EDUCATOR; “SCHOOLMASTER TO AMERICA”

[T]he religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles… This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government.

The moral principles and precepts found in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws.
All the… evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.

[O]ur citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament, or the Christian religion.

[T]he Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children under a free government ought to be instructed. No truth is more evident than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.

The Bible is the chief moral cause of all that is good and the best corrector of all that is evil in human society – the best book for regulating the temporal concerns of men.

[Slick]

Barack Obama made the statement with pride. . ."we are no longer a Christian nation; we are now a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, . . . As with so many other statements I've heard him (and his wife) make, I never thought I'd see the day that I'd hear something like that from a presidential candidate in this nation.

The best hope that we have is that this clown just KEEPS on talking!

We keep hearing the word "change" - but NEVER any clue as to what will be done to accomplish this "change". People (today) are so desparate that they'll cling to anyone that they think has a "message". Never mind that it's all about empty hopes and re-hashes of the SOS we've been fighting all along... There's got to be a good reason why mr. obama won't let us all in on what sort of "change" he has in mind - or how he hopes to accomplish the same.

[Charles]

When Andrew Carnegie remarked to Mark Twain that this country was a Christian country, Twain replied... "So is hell!"

[C. Cash]

Great quotes John. If Hell will be populated with "Christians" then we better get to work admonishing and giving those folks a scriptual kick in the pants. I know I've needed one many times. Real Love does that kinda stuff!

[KirkD]

Most people today do not know what a Christian is. They think they know, but they have never bothered to actually read what Jesus Christ had to say on the matter. Here are some thoughts:

1. If you say you are a Christian, but there's no changed life, it don't mean squat. Jesus said that on Judgment Day, there will be "many" (note that He said 'many') people who thought they were Christians but will be shocked to learn they will be spending eternity in the final resting place of evil, Hell.

2. Just because a fellow goes to church and calls himself a Christian, it don't mean squat if there's no changed life. Jesus said, 'by their fruit, you shall know him.'

3. I see a lot of 'pious' atheists and non-Christians who point at the so-called 'Christians' and go on to explain what a bunch of hypocrites those people are (i.e., there's no changed life). Then they go on to reject what Jesus Christ has to offer, justifying it on the basis of thinking the hypocrites are 'Christians'. If anyone reading this is an atheist, and you've rejected what Christ has to offer because you've fallen for the scam that everyone who claims to be a Christian is one, then you've been had, Bud!

4. Going to church and getting all emotional while the band up front is doing their Sunday morning musical mood manipulation (often referred to as 'worship') is not to be confused with a 'changed life' or being a Christian.

5. There ain't going to be any Christians in Hell, just 'Christians' who thought they were, or who said they were, but were never spiritually re-born to a new life that was different from the old one.

6. Some Christians need more changing than others, but there has got to be evidence of change over time as that person grows closer to God.

7. If you love Jesus Christ, you will keep His commands. You won't be always trying to weasel out of them by 're-examining' passages on the role of men and women, or homosexuality, or immorality, or divorce and re-marriage, or whatever and dressing it all up in fancy exegetical terms, like I see most 'Christians' today doing.

8. Jesus Christ said, 'When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the earth?" Now put that in your pipe and smoke it for a while. Think of the implications that has.

9. Finally, for any atheists that are hard on Christians, the next time you are tempted to take shots at Christianity, justifying it by pointing out some disgusting or heinous behavior the so-called 'Christians' were practicing, ask yourself this question, "Is this what Jesus really taught?". ..... and if you don't know what He really taught, then you'd better find out. Your eternal destiny hinges on it.

[Charles]

KirkD....AMEN and AMEN!!!

[sw41mag]

In case you missed this Obama gaffe, SENT TO ME BY AN OLD FRIEND IN LOUISIANA.

Subject: U. S. "no longer a Christian Nation"]
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 03:31:09 +0000

Please send this on to your friends, spend time each day in prayer for our country, and get out and vote in November.

Dear Friends,

As I was listening to a news program last night, I watched in horror as Barack Obama made the statement with pride. . ."we are no longer a Christian nation; we are now a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, . .

I heard that speech and didn't think he "said it with pride" as much as he was acknowledging the fact that... guess what.... while you were sleeping other people came into the country and they might not be Christian. They might actually believe something else besides what you believe. And guess what else. Not all Christians hold dear what you hold dear from the bible. Like hating other people that might be different from you. When I read my bible I see that Jesus told us to first love the Lord with all our heart, mind and strength. He secondly told us to love each other like ourselves. And was it Paul? that said, and I paraphrase, What reward is there when you love people that are easy to love?

[Old Savage]

Obama is a clever and skilled politician who says what he has to and has done nothing except promise change (we know not what) and a raft of hand outs. He intends it would seem to drive the country into as much socialism as possible. He has almost no qualifing body of work to recommend him as president. And, it would appear that his wife is not a fountain of love for anyone except themselves and her view is very racially polarized. He is intelligent and charming in manner. But follow what these gentlemen have described as Christianity? - not by his church association and the message they preach.

This far different from what the founding fathers had in mind.

[AmBraCol]

Cash et. al..... There is a difference between "cultural" Christians and "Practicing Christians".
<snip>
So, when a survey is done many folks say they are Christians who are anything but practicing Christians. I don't know what the actual percentage of committed, practicing, walk the walk, Christians are in this country, but that number would be far, far, far, less than what surveys would reflect.

It is interesting to give folks a survey about their world view. No "are you a Christian" questions, but rather, "What do you believe about ..... ". Such surveys show that only about 4% of US residents have a Biblical world view and less than 10% of the church going folk do. That doesn't bode well for the culture over all - and explains a lot of the problems our nation is facing. To many "M&BPO" (I like that term - even as I abhor the concept it portrays) folk who never give the Gospel a chance at changing their mind and heart - not to mention the world around them.

[AmBraCol]

Most people today do not know what a Christian is. They think they know, but they have never bothered to actually read what Jesus Christ had to say on the matter.

Excellent points, Kirk. One of my favorite passages comes from the "Sermon on the Mount" in Matthew chapter 7.

So then, you will know the false prophets by what they do. "Not everyone who calls me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do. When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!' Then I will say to them, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!' "So then, anyone who hears these words of mine and obeys them is like a wise man who built his house on rock.

It's interesting that when they say "... in your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!" that He doesn't reply "No you didn't!" but rather "I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people."

Last night in our men's Bible study we were looking at Isaiah 58. Another thought provoking piece of Scripture.

[JerryB]

Kirk, thank you for setting this straight. It is really obvious that some just don't understand II Timothy 2:15 and can not rightly divide the word. Like Brother Jim said "Theres been a change in me". That is good preaching Brother Kirk.

[C. Cash]

Good point about being reborn Kirk. For some men it is lightning fast and for others they struggle, it seems. I have at times been marginal in the fruit department, for which I ask God's forgiveness all the time. I have changed, slowly, and am thankful that the Lord has not layed the axe to the root of the tree. It is only through Grace of Christ that He has not.

Personally, I still have a hard time writing all these people off, though it may in fact be as large a group as suggested. I think sometimes we judge by human standards as to the fruit, and we do it before we walk a mile in another mans shoes or darken his door very much. We do alot of judging from a distance. Yep, guilty as charged. Things aren't always as they appear to be. Many of the most well regarded men in Church do their fruit before men for all the wrong reasons and will not lift a finger for a "sinner", while others do not worry about what other men think, and their fruit often known but to the Lord. A man's true heart is known only by God. The "you'll know them by their fruits" was actually a verse given to us by Jesus to identify false prophets. I'm not sure that it's always a reliable test in judging other Christians unless we are actively involved in that persons life as the first Christians were...have to get beyond the facade today. The true measure used by Jesus was in John where he said that the world will know us as Christians by the Love that we have for one another. That's the watermark that he gave. Real love shown over the long term is hard to fake, but beyond that I agree with all said. Just .02 and if I'm mistaken and have missed the point totally, I would appreciate some gentle admonishment here or email with how you really feel!

[KirkD]

C. Cash, I can't write any man off, and what is going on inside a man is what counts, which is something no one really knows but the man himself and God. I don't think the fruit Jesus was talking about is necessarily what we would consider to be good deeds, although those should be a symptom. Rather, I think it is more of a changed life that starts on the inside and that begins to experience more of what is known as the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22 and 23.

The kind of 'Christian' I really have no reason at all to think is really a Christian has no concern for the lost (i.e., doesn't even have the desire to share his faith), and sins and never feels any guilt or need for repentance (we all sin, but the 'Christian' who practices sin without any desire for repentance is something I see all the time and I just can't see how they can be truly reborn spiritually), and seems to be totally caught up and focused in the world with only the token appearance in church on Sunday morning and the appropriate religious comments when the situation demands it. I could preach an entire sermon on this subject. The bottom line is that each person has to get alone with God and between God and the man, decide whether there is truly change happening from the inside out over the course of that person's life. If not, then maybe the fellow has never truly put his faith in Jesus for forgiveness for his sins and for eternal life. I'm as much of a reprobate as anyone else. I need to spend time daily alone with God, reading the Bible and praying in order to survive spiritually. Hope this helps. It's late and I'm not thinking too clearly.

[Andrew]

It's late and I'm not thinking too clearly.

Phooey, that's the best stuff I have heard in a long time. Thank You.

[C. Cash]

Thank you Kirk for expanding on that. Very true indeed what your saying and a good reminder of being concious of where we are at in our walk. I didn't mean you personally writing people off....but how we as a group figure that most Christians are spritually flat lined. I dunno....much food for thought here and thank you for the insights. Get some good sleep!