OT - Civil War Movie picks...

[AndyM]

Seeing that today was the last day in the Battle of Gettysburg and the date of Pickett's charge - I ordered the double DVD movie set of Gettysburg and Gods and Generals - yesterday. I have made a pact to myself to try to learn some more about the Civil War and go visit and spend some time at Gettysburg. Living in Pennsylvania, I have driven through the battlefield a few times but never really walked around.

About the movies - anybody like this 2 flicks? and are there any other Civil War movies or any other PBS type of shows that are required watching? How about good books?

All you Civil War buffs, please speak up... Happy 4th also...

[Bill in Oregon]

Those are good ones. My favorite Civil War film is Ang Lee's "Ride With the Devil," which tells the side of the Missouri Bushwhackers. There was a lot of meanness, evil and injustice inflicted by both sides in the Border Wars along the Kansas and Missouri borders, as well as courage and coolness under fire. I am sure you will hear much more from others.
My great-grandfather William Wood served in the 3rd Wisconsin Cavalry chasing Bushwhackers, by the way.

[Hobie]

There's a lot of good CW movies but many have inaccuracies and are more so venues for the stars than attempts to tell the story of the Civil War. "Glory" is a good one.

[gamekeeper]

There's a lot of good CW movies but many have inaccuracies and are more so venues for the stars than attempts to tell the story of the Civil War. "Glory" is a good one.

+1

[El Chivo]

I watch Gettysburg every year on the 4th (ok, it's a day late but I have the day off).

I would agree Glory is probably the best done Civil War movie I've seen.

One that has stayed with me since I saw it at the drive-in in my pajamas was Shenandoah with Jimmy Stewart. He started out with a large family and the dinner table got progressively emptier as the film went on.

[gamekeeper]

Cold Mountain, not strictly a "war" movie but I thought it captured the time period ok, plus I loved that Le Matt revolver!

[Bluehawk]

NOt a movie but the book "The Gettysburg Campaign" by Coddington is the best out there great book to understand the battle and all of what led up to it

[24thMICH]

I remember seeing "Gettysburg" during its premier showing at the Fox Theatre in Detroit (if any of you know Detroit history, you'll know and love the Fox. It was built in Detroit's glory days during the 1920's--when Detroit was the wealthiest city in the United States. The Fox had really gone downhill in the late 60's and 70's and was destined for the wrecking ball, until some entrepreneurs got together and restored the place. Now it's across the street from Comerica Park, the new home of the Tigers and is one of the few gems left in that struggling city).

Martin Sheen (whose politics I generally despise) showed up for the premier. I remember being shocked at how short he was. It was and still is a great movie.

I really like "Gods and Generals" as well. It really points out the nastiness of the war and the stupid futility of battles like Fredricksburg.

I'd also have to put a vote in for "Cold Mountain" in terms of its depiction of the battle and in terms of its depiction of civilian life during the war. The romantic part of the film I could have left behind, and generally I can't stand Nicole Kidman (she's too impressed with herself). But this one movie I suppose is the one exception to that. Nicole did some pretty decent acting for a change, and more or less left her ego out of it. It's definitely worth seeing.

Also, I really have to mention "The Last Confederate." If you haven't seen this one, you really have to!


.

[C. Cash]

Ken Burn's Civil War series is now out in DVD at Sam's Club. It is Seventy bucks but if you wait it should come down a bit.
I thought Ride with the Devil was a great one. I gave my copy to Steve B and have not been able to locate another one....a movie worth buying. Well done movie. The Long Riders is another good one though they pick up on the James/Younger boys just after the Civil War.
Gettysburg and Glory are good, but no films have really captured what it must have been like with thousands of muskets and Cannons going off and the horror of those great battles. Maybe a good thing I reckon. It would be incredibly gory if they tried to redo it realistically. If we get a movie like that today from Hollyweird, it will probably be a good bit PC and one sided. Shame we have such drama and sacrifice in both the Revolution and the Civil War but America only wants to know more about Paris Hilton!

PS: Battle Cry of Freedom by James McPherson is a great read to know more about the Civil War Era and gives good Gettyburg info also.

[rock-steady]

The movie "Gettysburg" is my favorite.

I'm still mad at Chamberlain and those boys from Maine.

[CraigC]

I really enjoyed Gods & Generals. It's a shame the third installment probably won't get made. Ride with the Devil is also excellent!

[Old Ironsights]

Gone with the Wind...



What?

[Rusty]

We have both Gods and Generals and Gettysburg. both are very well made although as was said, there are some inaccuracies. I still get sick trying to watch Picket's charge.
I turned off the idiot box about 1/2 way through Cold Mountain, I'd had enough.

If you have time to read Shelby Foote has written the best books on the subject.


I have watched the Ken Burns work several times by checking it out of our local library. It has Shelby Foote in it several times. There is also a good recording of an interview with Shelby in the archives section of the National Public Radio Web site.

[Hobie]

I'm with you about Mr. Foote.

[C. Cash]

Shelby Foote was awesome indeed, though I've only read portions of his books that interest me particularly. His series is well over 2000 pages if memory serves me right, which is probably why McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom and Catton's Civil War are read so much by the general public...much shorter and covering the whole period pretty much in one volume.

[GonnePhishin]

An excellent one volume book written on the War Between the States would be "A Short History of the Civil War", by Fletcher Pratt.
If memory serves me correct it was written about 1948-49, and I remember reading it as a kid in the 1960's.
I don't know if it is still in print but if you go to Alibris.com, a huge used and new book seller, you should be able to pick up a copy.
In fact, I think I will do so myself, since I haven't read it in years and should pick up a copy for my collection!

[papasan]

The RED BADGE OF COURAGE.
With Audie Murphy.

papasan

[Gobblerforge]

Gone with the wind is classic. I have the box set. Ken Burns' series is a documentary with transcript and pictures. Hard to beat that for accuracy. I have the box set on that as well. I thought "Andersonville", I think it was, was a very well done movie.
I thought Shelby Foote was a wonderful narrator and interview on The Civil War and could listen to that Tennessee drawl all day, however I thought his book Shiloh was, well, I don't know, I just didn't care for it. It's not a jab at Shelby, it's probably my lack of sophistication.
Gobbler

[Bluehawk]

Shelby Foote also has a book JUST on Gettysburg Called "The Stars in their Courses" I have read everything By Foote wonderful authur But if its really Gettysburg that your interested in the the Book I mentioned above by Coddington is the beat very easy and good read to not dry

[Rusty]

I love to hear Shelby Foote talk as well. IIRC he is from Mississippi though. If you listen to the interview with him on NPR he talks about the fact that during the war when people went to war they more often than not went as a community. that means that you went with your cousins, your pastor, your teachers and quite possibly your brothers. that was one reason for some of the feats of uncommon valor on the field of battle. If you turned and ran you were not just letting your army down and not just letting your country down. You were letting down the people you grew up with as well.
Sorry to get so far off topic. I just always was amazed at the powers of reason Mr. Foote had.

[big bear]

The eloquence of the common men in Ken Burns documentay always amazed me. The language the soldiers used in their letters moved me to tears and wonderment over and over. I am still struck by the use of language by regular folk then and the semi-literacy of even educated people today.Listening to Lincoln's speeches in contrast to the talk of all our current crop of politicians is frankly depressing, can we have arrived at a point in history where there are no more "great men", or am I just an old cynic?

[Jeff Quinn]

Gettysburg is an excellent movie. I really like that they did not corrupt the movie with a lot of chick stuff.
The Outlaw Josie Wales is also good.

[Bill in Oregon]

Re Shelby Foote: We lost a fine American when he passed. I could listen to him read the phone book all day.

[Ysabel Kid]

Gettysburg is an excellent movie. I really like that they did not corrupt the movie with a lot of chick stuff.
The Outlaw Josie Wales is also good.

+1 on "The Outlaw Josey Wales"!

Okay, admittedly, not a "Civil War" movie per se, but a great western none the less!

I loved both "Gettysburg" and "Gods and Generals". In my opinion, "Gettysburg" has one of the most succinct explanations on the view of many participating in the Civil War - from the Southern's viewpoint - made anywhere. Many of the Southern generals are sitting around a camp fire and a British officer - and observer - is there with them. He basically asks why they are fighting this war. One of the Southern officers goes on to explain the foundation of the country in the terms of a gentlemen's club - where you join and agree to follow the rules (not to be confused with today's "gentlemen's clubs"! ). If your interests should go elsewhere, or if you decide you no longer agree with the club or it's rules, you simply go your own way. In his example the club starts telling the member how to live and what he can do outside of his participation in the club. The member decides to quit, and is told by the club he can't, and they force him to stay. The analogy is pretty darn well perfect for the view of the Southern states at that time - they had originally joined the Union as sovereign states, and their interest at the time of the Civil War had led them to decide to quit their membership - only to be told that they could not. It is an over-simplification, but quite accurate.

Most of the people fighting for the South did not own slaves. My ancestors on both sides did not. Most fought for states' rights, and for the freedom of local self-determination. Whereas the institution of slavery was wrong, it was also on it's way out, being displaced by modern technology. I firmly believe had slavery been allowed to die a "natural death", race relations would have been advanced scores of years. On the basic principle of our federal government, shared power and states' rights, the wrong side won - and we continue to pay the price today with a central government that routinely tramples state, local and individual rights at a whim...

[bee-weg]

Another battlefield not too far away from Gettysburg, and well worth the visit, is Antietam in Maryland. About a 60 mile drive. The bloodiest day in American history was at Antietam, with about 4 times as many casualties as the D-day landing.

Here is an interesting link to a database of the National Park Service, where you can search for veterans of the Civil War (both sides).

http://www.itd.nps.gov/cwss/soldiers.cfm

You might be surprised, as I was, to find ancestors that served. I found an ancestor that fought at Shiloh and Corinth and then marched with Sherman to the sea. It adds a personal element to reading about the war and visiting battlefields.

[Haycock]

Seeing that today was the last day in the Battle of Gettysburg and the date of Pickett's charge - I ordered the double DVD movie set of Gettysburg and Gods and Generals - yesterday. I have made a pact to myself to try to learn some more about the Civil War and go visit and spend some time at Gettysburg. Living in Pennsylvania, I have driven through the battlefield a few times but never really walked around.

About the movies - anybody like this 2 flicks? and are there any other Civil War movies or any other PBS type of shows that are required watching? How about good books?

All you Civil War buffs, please speak up... Happy 4th also...

Hey AndyM.... There will be a huge CW reenactment at G-Burg tomorrow (going with the wife and kids) complete with the travelling "support caravans" (period gear vendors, etc.).... it's a heck of an event and - as you point out - totally in keeping with celebrating Independence Day. I highly recommend it!


Haycock

[Mokwaw]

Have them both. They are excellant movies. Also, have the nine volume VHS format tapes of the Civil War made for PBS.....I'm not an actual buff, just enjoy history of our country.

[Paladin]

Gettysburg is an excellent movie. I really like that they did not corrupt the movie with a lot of chick stuff.
The Outlaw Josie Wales is also good.

+1 on both. Watched Gettysburg here during the muted celebration on the 4th so we would not upset the locals.

[jd45]

Ysabel, regarding your explaining the lead-up to the War Between The States.........I had never had it laid out like that before, and..............it makes sense! Thanx for that.
Gamekeeper...............are you aware of the number of your fellow countrymen who participated in "Cold Mountain"? Besides that, how many participated in the HBO WWII series, "Band of Brothers"? Your guys really had that American lingo down pat!................I was impressed, I tell you! Especially Damien Lewis as Major Dick Winters. jd45

[C. Cash]

Most of the people fighting for the South did not own slaves. My ancestors on both sides did not. Most fought for states' rights, and for the freedom of local self-determination. Whereas the institution of slavery was wrong, it was also on it's way out, being displaced by modern technology. I firmly believe had slavery been allowed to die a "natural death", race relations would have been advanced scores of years. On the basic principle of our federal government, shared power and states' rights, the wrong side won - and we continue to pay the price today with a central government that routinely tramples state, local and individual rights at a whim...

Your mostly right on Ysabel, but Slavery was not on the way out at all. The reason: Cotton. Ask many Southerners and they will tell you about chopping Cotton and dragging their cotton sacks around with them well into the 1930's and 40's+. To get most of the cotton out it had to be picked out by hand until that time and it still has to be chopped(the weeds cut out) by hoe for it to grow properly. My folks knew both of these tasks well. Their people had fought for the South and I am proud of the honorable way that they conducted themselves. They had alot of things right. But, Slavery should have been dealt with much sooner by the powers that be...both North and South(I take it this is what your saying as well so just restating it). Yes....a number of Confederates disapproved of the institution and most average Southerners did not own slaves as you say. There, now that I've stirred the pot I promise not to hijack the thread any further

[Hobie]

The eloquence of the common men in Ken Burns documentay always amazed me. The language the soldiers used in their letters moved me to tears and wonderment over and over. I am still struck by the use of language by regular folk then and the semi-literacy of even educated people today.Listening to Lincoln's speeches in contrast to the talk of all our current crop of politicians is frankly depressing, can we have arrived at a point in history where there are no more "great men", or am I just an old cynic?

I constantly think the same thing, e.g.

July 14th, 1861
Washington D.C.


My dear Sarah.

The indications are very strong that we shall move in a few days -- perhaps tomorrow. Lest I should not be able to write you again, I feel impelled to write lines that may fall under your eye when I shall be no more.

Our movement may be one of a few days duration and full of pleasure -- and it may be one of severe conflict and death to me. Not my will, but thine 0 God, be done. If it is necessary that I should fall on the battlefield for my country, I am ready. I have no misgivings about, or lack of confidence in, the cause in which I am engaged, and my courage does not halt or falter. I know how strongly American Civilization now leans upon the triumph of the Government, and how great a debt we owe to those who went before us through the blood and suffering of the Revolution. And I am willing -- perfectly willing -- to lay down all my joys in this life, to help maintain this Government, and to pay that debt.

But, my dear wife, when I know that with my own joys I lay down nearly all of yours, and replace them in this life with cares and sorrows -- when, after having eaten for long years the bitter fruit of orphanage myself, I must offer it as their only sustenance to my dear little children -- is it weak or dishonorable, while the banner of my purpose floats calmly and proudly in the breeze, that my unbounded love for you, my darling wife and children, should struggle in fierce, though useless, contest with my love of country?

I cannot describe to you my feelings on this calm summer night, when two thousand men are sleeping around me, many of them enjoying the last, perhaps, before that of death -- and I, suspicious that Death is creeping behind me with his fatal dart, am communing with God, my country, and thee.

I have sought most closely and diligently, and often in my breast, for a wrong motive in thus hazarding the happiness of those I loved and I could not find one. A pure love of my country and of the principles have often advocated before the people and "the name of honor that I love more than I fear death" have called upon me, and I have obeyed.

Sarah, my love for you is deathless, it seems to bind me to you with mighty cables that nothing but Omnipotence could break; and yet my love of Country comes over me like a strong wind and bears me irresistibly on with all these chains to the battlefield.

The memories of the blissful moments I have spent with you come creeping over me, and I feel most gratified to God and to you that I have enjoyed them so long. And hard it is for me to give them up and burn to ashes the hopes of future years, when God willing, we might still have lived and loved together and seen our sons grow up to honorable manhood around us. I have, I know, but few and small claims upon Divine Providence, but something whispers to me -- perhaps it is the wafted prayer of my little Edgar -- that I shall return to my loved ones unharmed. If I do not, my dear Sarah, never forget how much I love you, and when my last breath escapes me on the battlefield, it will whisper your name.

Forgive my many faults, and the many pains I have caused you. How thoughtless and foolish I have oftentimes been! How gladly would I wash out with my tears every little spot upon your happiness, and struggle with all the misfortune of this world, to shield you and my children from harm. But I cannot. I must watch you from the spirit land and hover near you, while you buffet the storms with your precious little freight, and wait with sad patience till we meet to part no more.

But, O Sarah! If the dead can come back to this earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you; in the garish day and in the darkest night -- amidst your happiest scenes and gloomiest hours -- always, always; and if there be a soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath; or the cool air fans your throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by.

Sarah, do not mourn me dead; think I am gone and wait for thee, for we shall meet again.

As for my little boys, they will grow as I have done, and never know a father's love and care. Little Willie is too young to remember me long, and my blue-eyed Edgar will keep my frolics with him among the dimmest memories of his childhood. Sarah, I have unlimited confidence in your maternal care and your development of their characters. Tell my two mothers his and hers I call God's blessing upon them. O Sarah, I wait for you there! Come to me, and lead thither my children.

That was written by Sullivan Ballou and is in Ken Burns series. He was killed shortly thereafter.

[C. Cash]

That one will get the hanky out quick. I like Stonewall Jackson's dying words....."Let us cross over the river, and rest in the shade of the trees".

I simply would have said something stupid like "Da@%! This hurts!" And that's how folks would have remembered me..............

[bee-weg]

but Slavery was not on the way out at all.

Thats correct, in fact, the escalation of the tension in the 1850's which directly led to the Civil War was the issue of expanding slavery even more than it already existed. If the south would have been content to keep slavery contained within the Missouri Compromise agreement, who knows... maybe slavery would have eventually ended with no war.

[Gobblerforge]

I have always wondered what I would have done in that time and place. Haven't you? Now we know so much more than they did then that the choice simply can't be made on the same terms. But as a northerner, born and bread, I always would have bent toward the blue, especially when I was younger. I don't know what my vocation would have been, as in that I am, today, a blacksmith, I would probably have been in some support with a cavalry or infantry. However I am a pretty fair shot too so... However I do believe in states rights. And it is that internal conflict that has made me vacillate for years. I see both sides evenly. The perfect world of a federally protected group of individual states just sounds right for me. It's sad that greed ruined any chance of this ever happening in a peaceful way.
I wonder what I will do in the next time and place.
One more thing. I try not to paint with a wide brush and I find it distasteful when others do. I don't have a problem with a man that is from the south. We are all Americans together. But why is it that many times in my life I have felt that many southern folks I've talked too, actually have a real problem with northern folks? Because of something that happened 150 years ago? Since I've never lived in the south, maybe I just don't get it.
Gobbler

[CraigC]

Great post Ysabel!

But why is it that many times in my life I have felt that many southern folks I've talked too, actually have a real problem with northern folks? Because of something that happened 150 years ago?

While I do not believe any man should be judged by where he comes from, who his father is or what he does for a living, you have to understand something about the south, the war never ended. The invasion that began in the 1860's continues today. The war was devastating for the South. Regardless of what you think about slavery, it was simply the way things were done at that time. In the North, it was mostly industrial, skilled labor ruled. In the agricultural South, it was slavery that made it all possible. Slaves that came from northern slave brokers. So not only did you see a vast majority of able-bodied men killed or crippled on the battlefield, you now have thousands of uneducated, unskilled slaves with something they never had before, freedom. It was as unfair to them as it was to the rest of the South. Who is left to do the work and rebuild the economy? IMHO, the South has never recovered. You also had a lot of property seized by Union men just because they wanted it. Noted outlaw Clay Allison grew up not far from where I sit. He came home from the war to find a Union officer living in his house. He killed him (who wouldn't!) and thus began his life as a gunfighter.

Today, everywhere you look the Southern way of life is under attack. The Confederate flag is demonized. Schools or buildings that were named after Confederate officers get their names changed. City folk from the North move down South and do their best to change their surroundings to their liking. Lawyers are called because the farmer's tractor makes too much noise. Fences are put up. Generally speaking, yankees make terrible neighbors in the rural South. There is a lot of animosity leftover from that darn war and when you get right down to where the rubber meets the road, you can understand why. That said, most people just try to live out their lives and don't dwell on it. It's ignorant folks say "it happened 150yrs ago, get over it" that ruffles my feathers.

George Hamilton said it best in a movie whose name escapes me "...this war will go on for another hundred years. Until all yankees or no yankees live in the South".

Make any sense?

[41bear]

Seeing that today was the last day in the Battle of Gettysburg and the date of Pickett's charge - I ordered the double DVD movie set of Gettysburg and Gods and Generals - yesterday. I have made a pact to myself to try to learn some more about the Civil War and go visit and spend some time at Gettysburg. Living in Pennsylvania, I have driven through the battlefield a few times but never really walked around.

About the movies - anybody like this 2 flicks? and are there any other Civil War movies or any other PBS type of shows that are required watching? How about good books?

All you Civil War buffs, please speak up... Happy 4th also...

AndyM you didn't ask for these but you may want to visit these two sites. I hope I'm not breaking rules by posting these two links but in my mind they are the two best sites to get a true flavor of this great blunder.

http://www.37thtexas.org/ - This site is nonpolitical and comitted to the true history of the time.
http://www.plpow.com/index.htm

There were many wrongs on both sides and unfortunally History gets written by the victor but the truth is out there if you really want to find it and have an open mind when you do.

To give you an idea of what I mean; most will tell you that Lee's defeat at Gettysburg was the turning point in the war. I submit to you that the South really lost it when Davis replaced Joe Johnson at Atlanta. Davis HATED Johnson and had replaced him before. Up until that point "Uncle Joe", as he was called by his men, had fought Sherman to a standstill. When he got behind his fortifications in Atlanta he had Sherman set to be blooded badly. Sherman would have never been able to make his infamous march to the sea. Davis at this very moment replaced Johnson and the rest is history. Without the fall of Atlanta Lincoln doesn't win a second term and The North doesn't sue for peace.

Good luck on your quest.

[66GTO]

This is a link to a lengthly interview with Shelby Foote on NPR. If you can get past the insipid questions from the interviewer, it is a must listen for Civil War history buffs. His comments about having walked the battlefield at Gettysburg retracing Pickett's charge is very telling. I had similar feelings standing on Cemetary Ridge looking across the field where the Confederate Army made their historic charge. The first part of the interview is worth listening to, but the part after the break is less about the Civil War.

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/med ... &m=4722306

[Ysabel Kid]

"Cold Mountain" is on sale this week at "Best Buy" for $5.99. I picked up a copy today. I don't really care for Nicole Kidman, but I did like Jude Law's performance in "Enemy at the Gates". In any case, a chance to see a LeMat in the movies - I'll take it! To me, that revolver will be the real star!!!

[C. Cash]

This is a link to a lengthly interview with Shelby Foote on NPR. If you can get past the insipid questions from the interviewer, it is a must listen for Civil War history buffs. His comments about having walked the battlefield at Gettysburg retracing Pickett's charge is very telling. I had similar feelings standing on Cemetary Ridge looking across the field where the Confederate Army made their historic charge. The first part of the interview is worth listening to, but the part after the break is less about the Civil War.

http://www.npr.org/templates/player/med ... &m=4722306

Thank you for that....it was excellent. Paladin...thank you for your service. God Bless and stay safe out there.

[Gobblerforge]

Thanks Craig. Maybe those folks that feel the war never ended need to step back and re-evaluate. My thought is that if they still blame their problems on the past then they are not taking responsibility for their own future.
I do understand some of the southern views. My Mom was very southern. Here is a northern view point that I heard years ago that made sense to me at the time. Consider how you would feel if you were in some unit in the army, or what ever, and some of the unit decided they didn't like the way things were going and walked out on you? Not only that but they were wanting to fight you as well. Would you wish them well and bid them goodbye or would you consider them traitors and mutineers to the unit? I think that is how some of the federalists saw it. From the southern view, I know I sure wouldn't want someone from another state telling me how they think I should live in my state. But we have that now, don't we?
I don't know. I sure don't have all the answers.
Gobbler

[bee-weg]

Probably no other event in our history is as intentionally misunderstood as the Civil War.

A note on 'victors writing the history.' This is not an totalitarian government that dictates how history will be written. Historians are free to write history the way they find it in their research. Their work is judged by their peers as well as the public, by the depth of the research, and the accuracy and objectiveness of the writing. The mainstream Civil War historians are mainstream because they have done a good job in presenting history accurately.

That's not to say they don't make mistakes. Even historians argue amongst themselves about many things. But some of the history is pretty well established, and yet still denied by many people.

[CraigC]

History is written by the victor, always has been. We don't live in a totalitarian state now, but then, it was fairly close to it. With Lincoln setting aside personal liberties for the sake of that victory and land in the South being seized on a whim. Sherman making war on men's homes and families. The South legally seceded and the Union invaded. For the last 150yrs the South has been demonized and the Union raised to sainthood for "going to war to free the slaves". That's plenty of time to brainwash most the population. It's only been in more recent years that the truth has started leaking out. Folks are only now beginning to believe that maybe it wasn't as "black and white" as we've always been told. I know that growing up, the public school system did a fantastic job of making kids feel ashamed of being Southern. Yes, historians are free to write what they wish and publishers are free to publish what they wish. They are also free to get called revisionists for their trouble. Because the truth is, most people still believe The Big Lie and worship at the altar of Lincoln....tyrant.

Maybe those folks that feel the war never ended need to step back and re-evaluate. My thought is that if they still blame their problems on the past then they are not taking responsibility for their own future.

That's definitely true but it's not about placing blame. It's about remembering, honoring and respecting our ancestors. All the while garnering hatred from strangers because of our flag and hearing comments like "it was 150yrs ago, get over it." It's something that those people will never understand.

Now the welfare nation, a symptom of white man's guilt, IS about placing blame on the past and not taking responsibility for their own future. Political correctness is expensive.

[Pathfinder09]

Have you guys ever seen the British film CSA "The Confederate States of America". It is a film made as though the Confederacy won the war. It is very interesting and controversail. Not for the politically correct.

Although I am not a southerner, I always had a lot of respect for the south in the civil war and I believe the Stars and Bars are an american flag as well, and the heritage should be celebrated. Weather it offends anyone or not. Just my $.02.

+1 for Shelby Foote also. I saw an interview with him on time and he wrote all his books in long hand. Never used a typwriter or compruter. Amazing man.

[41bear]

Thanks Craig. Maybe those folks that feel the war never ended need to step back and re-evaluate. My thought is that if they still blame their problems on the past then they are not taking responsibility for their own future.
I do understand some of the southern views. My Mom was very southern. Here is a northern view point that I heard years ago that made sense to me at the time. Consider how you would feel if you were in some unit in the army, or what ever, and some of the unit decided they didn't like the way things were going and walked out on you? Not only that but they were wanting to fight you as well. Would you wish them well and bid them goodbye or would you consider them traitors and mutineers to the unit? I think that is how some of the federalists saw it. From the southern view, I know I sure wouldn't want someone from another state telling me how they think I should live in my state. But we have that now, don't we?
I don't know. I sure don't have all the answers.
Gobbler

The other side to that coin is: Lets say you are married to a girl , who after 40 years of marrage says she doesn't love you any more. She's not mad or anything but she just can't stand the fact that you mess up the bathroom mirror every time you brush your teeth. She wants a divorce. She doesn't want alimony and the children are grown; she just wants out. You have two choices: fight her and try to keep her or let her go in peace and just maybe not lose a friend. Lincoln said "You ain't going anywhere." Well we are still here but at what price? To my way of thinking we are still paying it and will continue to do so until or unless the whole truth is understood and different parts of the country come together and agree that not one part is a saint and the other part is a reformed traitor but that we all are Americans and both sides did evil and illegal things. There is no way in my mind that war was or is the ONLY answer. For if it is we will never overcome this division.

That's definitely true but it's not about placing blame. It's about remembering, honoring and respecting our ancestors. All the while garnering hatred from strangers because of our flag and hearing comments like "it was 150yrs ago, get over it." It's something that those people will never understand.

Now the welfare nation, a symptom of white man's guilt, IS about placing blame on the past and not taking responsibility for their own future. Political correctness is expensive.

Couldn't have said it better myself CraigC

[bee-weg]

A well-regarded southern historian of today, like Gary Gallagher or William Davis, would not agree with the old spin that 'Lincoln was tyrant, Sherman was a monster, and the war was fought for states rights not slavery.'

Even Shelby Foote made some comment in the past on how relatively well-behaved Shermans men really were on the march to the sea.

I think it will be a good day for all of us, North and South, when the Lost Cause myths are finally put to rest.

[CraigC]

We don't need to speculate about Sherman. His own words darn him pretty well.

I can tell you right now that my great, great, great grandfather, all his brothers as well as his father fought in a cavalry unit from South Carolina. None of them owned slaves, nor did they fight for another's right to own slaves. So if the war was about slavery, what did they fight for? Do you really mean to tell me that in a day and age when nobody wants a war to free the Iraqi people from a tyrant, that Americans really believe that thousands of white men marched to their deaths to save slaves and thousands more marched to their deaths to stop them? I can't believe that any sane person would even consider such drivel. That war was about what every other war was about. Money, power, real estate and resources. The issue of slavery was used as a tactic by Lincoln to provoke the South. Chapter 2 will be about the Tooth Fairy.

More and more investigation and research points to debunking the St. Lincoln myth. He stood by and let citizens of Chicago die in concentration camps without trial because they were suspected to be Confederate sympathizers. Not far from a POW camp that was far worse than Andersonville.

Guess much of it depends on your perspective as two people can see the same facts in two very different ways.

I think it will be a good day for all of us, North and South, when the Lost Cause myths are finally put to rest.

It will be a good day for us all when people stop believing The Big Lie, stop demonizing the South and see that war for what it was. An extremely complex turn of events, not a black and white issue of slavery.

[bee-weg]

Why do men EVER go to war? Did the hundreds of thousands who volunteered for Viet Nam join to stop dominoes from falling in some third world Asian countries they'd never heard of before?

Or, did they join because their father and grandfather had went to war... or because they wanted to part of something big... or because their friends were going... or because they had heard many war stories and wanted tell some when they were old... or because they really did believe what the politicians were telling them... or because they were men and that's just what we do. We may believe war is a last resort, but if there is going to be a war, by God we don't want to miss it either.

There have been good books, like Chandra Manning's, about what the average soldier wrote about the war. Manning's book shows from personal letters during the war, that soldiers on both sides knew from the beginning that the root of the war was slavery.

The Lincoln stuff is just off-base. The Lincoln-haters have an agenda. They come to the table with either a pro-confederate agenda or an anti-central-government agenda. Then they twist, spin, and fabricate to make Lincoln into what they already planned to make him into to begin with. That's how I see it. Anyone who really studies Lincoln objectively sees a man that even his antagonists (like Douglas) saw as an honest man with strong convictions.

[41bear]

The Lincoln stuff is just off-base. The Lincoln-haters have an agenda. They come to the table with either a pro-confederate agenda or an anti-central government agenda. Then they twist, spin, and fabricate to make Lincoln into what they already planned to make him into to begin with. That's how I see it. Anyone who really studies Lincoln objectively sees a man that even his antagonists (like Douglas) saw as an honest man with strong convictions.

I'm not a Lincoln "Hater" but I do love the truth and Lincoln was no saint; no man is. Here is Lincoln in his own words on Secession:

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movements." ~ Lincoln January 12 1848

"...they [the South] commenced by an insidious debauching of the public mind. They invented an ingenious sophism which, if conceded, was followed by perfectly logical steps, through all the incidents, to the complete destruction of the Union. The sophism itself is that any State of the Union may consistently with the national Constitution, and therefore lawfully and peacefully, withdraw from the Union without the consent of the Union or of any other State." ~ Lincoln, in his Special Message to Congress July 4 1861

Is that the words of an honest man or someone who, knowing he is wrong, is trying to inflame others to his cause? It can't be legal one day and illegal the next.

A side fact to that 07/04/61 speech. By law Lincoln was to report to Congress 30 days after the start of the war to gain approval for it. He waited until the 91 day which was against the law and alsop the countrys birthday. I wonder why he did that?

[bee-weg]

41Bear, do you have some references? Googling is not bringing up any references to your 30 day congressional approval statement, and the Mexican War speech refers to a territory with Mexicans as well as Americans, correct?... not a country, not states of a country, not a "perfect union."

As the constitutional executive of the Union, Lincoln took the necessary steps to preserve and protect the Union. That was what he had been elected to do.

...and you're right, no man is a saint. No man's character is immune from unjustified attacks, either...

[41bear]

41Bear, do you have some references? Googling is not bringing up any references to your 30 day congressional approval statement, and the Mexican War speech refers to a territory with Mexicans as well as Americans, correct?... not a country, not states of a country, not a "perfect union."

As the constitutional executive of the Union, Lincoln took the necessary steps to preserve and protect the Union. That was what he had been elected to do.

...and you're right, no man is a saint. No man's character is immune from unjustified attacks, either...

My quotes on what Lincoln said are an unjustified attack? How can that be? He spoke those words not I.

Texas was not a territory, as of April 21, 1836; it was a free and independent state with its own Constitution. A Constitution which, by the way, still maintains the right to secede from the Union; I believe. I would guess it was made up of all kinds of races. What does that have to do with secession being legal or not? In any event Lincoln did believe and stated that it was legal and right for Texas to secede from Mexico. Then why would it be any different for the Southern States? You can’t have it both ways. But I guess Lincoln could because he was President so he just flip flopped and might is always right, right?

More from Lincoln:

"Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose – and you allow him to make war at pleasure.... If, today, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, 'I see no probability of the British invading us' but he will say to you 'be silent; I see it, if you don't.' The provision of the Constitution giving the war-making power to Congress, was dictated, as I understand it, by the following reasons. Kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This, our Convention understood to be the most oppressive of all Kingly oppressions; and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that no one man should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us. But your view destroys the whole matter, and places our President where kings have always stood."

~ Representative Abraham Lincoln, in a letter to his long-time law partner William H. Herndon, denouncing the trickery of President Polk. He learned to use that trickery well 12 years later.

As President; Lincoln took the stand that the secession was illegal and in truth no war was ever declared by congress because of that stand. He never asked for congressional approval, so I stand corrected on that score. Might is always right, right?

"The Union, in any event, won't be dissolved. We don't want to dissolve it, and if you attempt it, we won't let you. With the purse and sword, the army and navy and treasury in our hands and at our command, you couldn't do it.... We do not want to dissolve the Union; you shall not."

~ Lincoln, in a campaign speech in Galena, Illinois, Aug. 1 1856.

And this opposing view:

"A policy of violent opposition to secession is a policy of forced association. As with all forms of forced association, the stronger party will tend to exploit the weaker. Such is the case with the master-slave relationship. Such is the case when a state is forced to remain in the Union against its will. Both forms of forced association are immoral."

~ James Ostrowski 'Was the Union Army's Invasion of the Confederate States a Lawful Act? An Analysis of President Lincoln's Legal Arguments Against Secession' in Secession, State, and Liberty.

"Even though unionists have placed great stock in the Preamble, their recitations rarely extend past the first 15 words... the presence in the Preamble of the phrase, "We, the People of the United States" was an accident! It originally read: 'That the people of the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia do ordain, declare and establish the following constitution for the government of ourselves and our posterity.' It was amended, not for the purpose of submitting the constitution to the people in the aggregate, but because the convention could not tell, in advance, which States would ratify it."

James Ostrowski 'Was the Union Army's Invasion of the Confederate States a Lawful Act? An Analysis of President Lincoln's Legal Arguments Against Secession' in Secession, State, and Liberty.

That is true because there were two states, North Carolina and Rhode Island, that didn’t ratify until changes were made to it.

As to your statement of a "Perfect Union" if it was so perfect why did Lincoln have to wage a war to maintain that unity?