OT - Self defense handgun recommendation needed...

[Ysabel Kid]

...but not for me! I typically carry a Para P12.45; sometimes some other things, but the Para is my primary carry weapon.

I have a peer whose wife would like to get a handgun for self-defense. I went through the litany of questions we have all asked of those who have sought our advice on such matters. I have done this dozens of time.

First, I establish that the person is actually willing to take another human life. If they say something like “well, I will just shoot the bad guy in the leg”, I recommend pepper spray or something else – this isn’t Hollywood!

Then I ask about their need – will the gun be kept just a home, home and a car, or carried on the person? Depending on the answer – and the physical capabilities of the person – I then recommend a few choices. Anything from a 12-gauge shotgun for purely home defense to a handgun for concealed carry. For the latter I usually recommend a double-action snubbie in .357 Magnum. I prefer revolvers for those who aren’t going to practice enough, and as you know you can shoot everything from .38 Special wad-cutters that barely recoil more than a .22 to full-power .357 Magnums that will crack an engine block – and everything in between.

After a few discussions over the phone over the last few months, we finally had a chance to meet in town (they live 1.5 hours away), take an early lunch, and hit the range. We started the session again with more discussion and a safety lecture. She had fired handguns before. I brought three guns to try – a snubbie .357 that we fired .38 target LSWC’s through (a Rossi Model 877), a FEG Mark II APK in .380 ACP (a Walther PPK clone) and my FM Detective (a “commander” length Hi-Power) in 9mm.

Problem # 1 – she did not have the strength to pull the trigger in double action mode on the snubbie revolver.

Problem # 2 – she did not have the strength to rack the slide or pull the trigger when in double-action on the PPK-clone. She did shoot it well in single-action mode though.

Problem # 3 – She liked the 9mm, but it was a bit too large for her, and recoiled more than she liked. She shot it better than the revolver, but not nearly as well as the FEG.

So, I think we are at the .380 ACP now. Here’s the question – given this and the above, what would you recommend? Is there a PPK-size .380 ACP that has a slide-release lever? One in single-action only? Any you have personal experience with that you’d recommend?

Thanks guys!

[Old Ironsights]

Smallish gun, low recoil, light DA trigger... Glock G28 in .380.

That or a Taser.

[Malamute]

What is the DA trigger pull weight that she couldnt pull?


A decent action job can do wonders for DA trigger pulls. many throw springs in it and call it good, but that can effect reliable ignition. A true action job makes everything work easier without reducing the spring strength, at least not much. From most of the comments I've heard (from gunsmiths) about the Taurus DA's, they genarally have a heavy, fairly rough action to the DA trigger pull.

I polished a J frame Smith so that a 5 year old could easily pull it (actually tried it), but it never ever failed to fire when shot with any ammo no matter how dirty.

[kirkwood]

Sounds like she is trying to rack the slide by pulling back on the slide with her finger and thumb instead of pushing down on the frame with her gun hand. Once you show someone with weak hands the correct way to rack the slide, they should have no problem.

[kirkwood]

This site has some advice for women shopping for the right gun. I don't agree with all of it, but it is worth a look. http://www.corneredcat.com/FirstGun/tryongun.aspx

[Blaine]

An SP101 shooting Specials would be easy easy to cock and control.

[lever-4-life]

If you can find one in a good "shooter" condition I would go with a colt 1908 .380, I love my 1903 .32 but the .380 is a better stopper. The little colts are compact, reliable, and have a nice single action trigger.

[Rod WMG]

I think she would benefit from some light strength training exercises, isometric and light weights. These should be specifically for her hands and arms. It shouldn't take much to get her to the level of being able to cycle a slide and /or pull a good DA trigger.

[Poohgyrr]

Beretta makes a tipup barrel .380 she might look at.

The physical & medical capabilities have a part in this. FWIW, we've trained one woman who had polio as a kid and no stength in one arm & hand. She eventually picked a 9mm Browning Hi Power.

Another elderly woman had bad arthritis in her hands, and did her best with a Colt Detective Special, shot single action, with an old set of Fitz gunfighter grips.

...........

[Cliff]

The Beretta idea is a good one. I think it is the Model 85. A tip up barrel with enough length to get some velocity etc. A heavy gun for its size and caliber should be easy to control. One thing I have found in arming women that worked well for me was to give them a safe, empty gun that they might like, then let them take it someplace and play with it for a while, without someone looking over their shoulder. I used to teach new officers (women) who had little or no back ground in firearms and found their proficentcy (sp) improved very fast when they could just handle and play with a gun to remove the strangeness of it. Of course my favorite gun for this purpose is a medium framed revolver, easy trigger and available in good calibers. Only had one we (myself and three others) could not get to shoot at all. They didn't like my suggestion was just give her either a bag of rocks or a handgrenade. Let them see what is out there and let them pick what they like, leave them alone and they will make it work. Just my thoughts. Good Luck.

[Tycer]

A couple of quick videos for her:

http://guntalk.tv/gtv/library.php?categ ... 0%28EDT%29

http://guntalk.tv/gtv/library.php?categ ... 0%28EDT%29

Smith M&P 9

The interchangeable grips allow different palm swell and length-of-pull, and the barrel sits low in the hand for reduced felt recoil and muzzle rise.

http://www.gunblast.com/SW_MP.htm

Anyone can rack a slide. She just needs to be taught the proper technique. Your thumbs should be on the same side of the gun and your elbows moving towards each other. Grip the top slide with the entire off hand, gun parallel to your chest, and push the slide.

IMPROPER Way to rack a slide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UgaDiINdtk

[RIHMFIRE]

S&W 500 WITH 8 3/8" BARREL
I CARRY A MAUSER 380 MADE IN GERMANY...
AND THAT LITTLE GUN HAS QUIT A BIT OF RECOIL
WHAT ABOUT THE S&W AIRLITES AND USE LIGHT 38s
THE TRIGGERS CANT BE THAT HEAVY...
ALL SHE NEEDS IS A LITTLE PRACTICE

[2ndovc]

Try another revolver, one that's had some action work. A friend of mine bought his wife an S&W 66 and had the action worked over. After shooting it myself I had the same thing done to my 2 1/2" 66. Smoothest DA trigger I've ever tried.
My Mother has a Bersa .380, nice little gun and doesnt kick as bad as some 380s that I've fired.
My carry pistols are a Glock 26 or 19. One of those would solve the trigger pull problem, but not my first choice for a beginner.

jb

[TomF]

I recently bought a Ruger LCP. It is small, concealable, de-horned, low recoil and mine shoots well. I plan to buy one for the wife.

TomF

[rjohns94]

YK,

I spent a lot of time selling firearms in a shop that had an indoor range and taught CCW courses (amoung other things) and I can tell you that the #1 handgun preferred by woman 3 or 4 to 1 was the taurus .38, with the centennial look http://www.taurususa.com/products/produ ... y=Revolver. I taught the ccw class to hundreds of women and they favored and did well those handguns. Women carry in their purse and the snag free profile of the handgun is just what is called for. With the 158 grain, LSWCHP from Remington, the .38 +P round is a formidable projectile. I would recommend having one of those slicked up either in the taurus or smith configuration and I am positive that any adult, void of a disability, could handle that firearm. It was proven in hundreds of cases out of that one shop. I sold 2 or 3 a day, 7 days a week out of that shop. Highly popluar for good reasons. The next most popular model was: http://www.taurususa.com/products/produ ... y=Revolver because of the ability to pull the hammer back, but still have the snag free profile.

good luck.

mike

[DennisD]

One thing I would like to add. If she doesn't have enough strength to pull a double action trigger, I would be concerned about her ability to control a small semi-auto enough to avoid limp wristing. Limp wristing can cause most semi's; especially the small ones, to jam. I would sooner consider a DA revolver with a reduced tension trigger and hammer spring, which would make the trigger pull much easier.

[Texican]

A couple of quick videos for her:

http://guntalk.tv/gtv/library.php?categ ... 0%28EDT%29

http://guntalk.tv/gtv/library.php?categ ... 0%28EDT%29

Smith M&P 9

The interchangeable grips allow different palm swell and length-of-pull, and the barrel sits low in the hand for reduced felt recoil and muzzle rise.

http://www.gunblast.com/SW_MP.htm

Anyone can rack a slide. She just needs to be taught the proper technique. Your thumbs should be on the same side of the gun and your elbows moving towards each other. Grip the top slide with the entire off hand, gun parallel to your chest, and push the slide.

+1

Revolvers are for the experienced shooter. Yes, the simplicity of operation is attractive for a newbie but shooting them accurately is difficult (particularly under stress - try competing with one on moving targets).

Get an good auto (one that you would carry) that fits and get some some training for her from a NON-family member with NRA certification, preferably another female ; it will be cheaper and more productive in the long run.

Beyond the S&W M&P you may also consider:
Ruger LCP
Kel-Tec P3AT, PF9
Bersa .380
Kahr 9mm
Springfield EMP 9mm

[O.S.O.K.]

Beretta makes a tipup barrel .380 she might look at.

The physical & medical capabilities have a part in this. FWIW, we've trained one woman who had polio as a kid and no stength in one arm & hand. She eventually picked a 9mm Browning Hi Power.

Another elderly woman had bad arthritis in her hands, and did her best with a Colt Detective Special, shot single action, with an old set of Fitz gunfighter grips.

...........

+1 - exactly what I was thinking as I read down the thread.

The tip up is the perfect answer for this lady - and 380 hollow points are adequate defense rounds if placed center of mass - she needs to practice! And on targets at 7' and 15' - practice getting the pistol up and getting a good shot off.

[alnitak]

I think the new Kahr .380 would be perfect. I have the PM9, and the trigger pull is a smooth 6# that feels lighter.

The Ruger LCP or Kel-Tec P3AT will probably kick too much for her.

[Idahoser]

It would be a mistake to buy a gun for her current 'needs'. All these limitations are false, she needs to learn how to do these things.

Now, a mistaken choice is better than no gun. That's why my Grandma still has (buried in the cedar chest) the RG .22 revolver her long dead husband gave her. If I can't get her to actually shoot, learn a little, practice a little, and have a real gun, well, at least she's not "afraid of guns".

We can't always get through to people, but your friend needs to practice and find out she can indeed rack a slide or work a double action.

A person who likes guns will learn about a semi-auto. A person who wants a gun will not, and should not be suggested one. A revolver is THE gun for this person.

[kimwcook]

An age old question. Been there done that with a number of women. Either they can't rack the slide of an auto or they don't have the finger strength to cycle smoothly through a double action pull of a revolver. Some of the requirements for carry are stringent, hard to conceal on their person as most wear clothes that are fairly tight fitting and/or they carry them in their purse and they're heavy. Pretty soon they start leaving the piece at home or in the car because packing it around isn't something they're willing to do. Plus, generally they won't take the time to get proficient let alone practice to stay there. It's a diminishing skill that requires routine practice to retain that skill.

I'm interested in what she picks. Ysabel keep us posted.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

My wife loves her Beretta 84FB. Small, but not tiny. Holds 13 rounds of .380. Decocker, etc.

[Griff]

IMO a revolver is far simpler. Some folks, whether they admit or not, are downright phobic about that "huge" slide coming at their face. Plus with safety(s) to disengage, they can get the better of a person in the "heat of the moment".

What's wrong with a "LadySmith"? With it's size, weight & action scaled for smaller framed & muscled persons, it should make the "short list" on those merits alone.

[Hillbilly]

A little coachin can usually correct slide problems on autos. I found teaching kids and women the trick it explaining it as a 'push-pull-timing thing."
Those Berretta 84-85's are pretty big guns... not much smaller than most 9mm...

Steel J frames usually have pretty good triggers . I have a Tarus 85 thats a bit heavy --- but I dont mind a heavy trigger on a carry gun. All can be tailored to suit anyone.

got to handle a Ruger LCP... cute gun... I bet it's a handful to train with..especially for a first time shooter. I could see it as a good pocket backup... but the Tarus or one of my other pistols would be primary.

Lots of ladies do well with a PPK-PPKS. I have not shot a Kahr but with a bit of practice and break in it looks like a dandy ladies pistol to me.

Most of us probably shoot well... for me the .380 is the ground floor... and it's a last gap gun for me.
Tell her to take her time to learn the biggest load she can handle and make hits with.
Even if she only masters a .22 she is better off than totin a sharp stick.

[Andrew]

I don't have any experience with CCW's, but I do think that she should try some exercises with her hands/arms. A lot of "can't"s can be turned into "can"s with a little practice. You might try having her dry-fire it in SA for awhile then try moving up to DA dry-firing.

[Tristan]

My recommendation? Strength training. I'm not kidding.

Squeezie balls for her hands, and light weights for the forarms/upper arms.

It will help her with the firearm of her choice, and in many other ways, too.

- Tristan

[jerry b]

Perhaps a Smiff would provide an easier/nicer DA trigger pull in a snubby. Definately she could start building up the strength in her master hand. It won't take long if she works at it.

I think the DA revolver is less prone for something to go wrong, with the user not having great presence of mind during probably the most stressful situation she will ever go through. A nice long DA pull can help avoid unintentional discharges during stress. Also, the revolver cartridge is easier to load for, and one doesn't have to chase brass all over. Unless they are rich, reloading for practice is a must these days. There is no way to gain proficiency without much, much practice. Otherwise, she might do better with the pepper spray.

I trust my cookies to the DA snubby.

.38+p snubby with grips that fit the hand
strength training
practice and more practice

However, I'm no expert. So, no charge for this opinion.

[Tycer]

If a person is going to go with a short barreled gun, I highly recommend laser grips. Short barreled guns are VERY hard for novice shooters to shoot well. If you can't shoot well it takes the fun out of it. If it isn't fun you won't shoot it. If you don't shoot it and get the muscle memory, when seconds count, and the fight or flight kicks in and the tunnel vision sets in and the dexterity goes in the crapper, you will not, WILL NOT, be able to operate the weapon.

Practice practice practice!

Learning to load, shoot and clear a semi auto is not brain surgery. Even a green grunt with a 50 IQ can learn to do it.

If we can do it, a woman knows she can do it better.

[lever-4-life]

+1 for the laser grips!

[Marlin .35]

Several times the Bersa .380 has been mentioned. I own one and it is a dandy firearm. It has a little weight to it so recoil is less. Slide is easily manipulated and accuracy at 15 yards is very good. I carry Golden Sabre's in it and it will do the job. I like it for deep cover. And it won't break the pocketbook! Art

[4t5]

kahr 380 or ruger sp101 in 32 magnum would work.

[greasy dan]

What Tycer said works... My baby daughter was borne with one good hand. There was No way she could rack the slide as most people do, so I taught her to grab the slide with her "bad" hand, good hand on the grip, and push her elbows together. Works like a charm. She likes my 380 PPK better than others.

[stretch]

Like some others have said, racking the slide is more a matter of technique than
strength. Massad Ayoob has some good advice in, I think, "The Gravest
Extreme". (One of his books, anyway....)

I let my wife pick a carry gun she liked, and she came back with a Ruger
(P85?) - a HUGE semiauto that she shot rather well. After carrying around
half-a-ton of iron for a few months, we bought her a Taurus Model 85 with
the gold highlights - (she's a girl, gimme a break...). THAT is a much better
gun to carry around in a fanny pack for her. She doesn't shoot it quite as
well as the big Ruger, but well enough. She also loves the little Ruger single
action 22 - and can shoot that one quite well. She's also a STRONG lady,
but doesn't like racking the slide on my Makarov or a 10mm. The revolver
is a good choice for her.

I think confidence, some technique training, and maybe a little bit of
strengh training will be plenty to get her going. My 12-year-old son
routinely loads and shoots my GI 45 with NO trouble at all. He's built like
a rake handle - only skinnier - and of average strength for his age.

[ole pizen slinger]

Smith Model 60 Chief Special with 2 inch barrel and +P ammo. She can use regular 38 special for practise and carry the +P stuff for defense.
OPS

[bogus bill]

Seems to me almost any small woman with a little practice could handle a J frame s&w. There are many variants. My wife says this 3" model 36 is hers! I carry a model 40, and used to carry a model 60 for 35 years untill it was stolen. There are a lot of models and grips in J frames. I think with looking you can find a .32 H&R mag in one. They are loud but kick less then a .38. And are supposedly about as lethal.
I have one in a ruger single six.

[bogus bill]

Here is the s&w model 40 that I mentioned above. About a perfect pocket gun for me. I seldom use the pocket holster shown. I will post next a s&w model 34 J frame .22 I would get her for practice.

[bogus bill]

[bogus bill]

Also here is the same guns all together. I see the wifes has goodyears.

[Old Ironsights]

Seems to me almost any small woman with a little practice could handle a J frame s&w. ...

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one bill.

Not too long ago I cleaned up and shot a friend's little J frame. I couldn't shoot it for squat and it beat the stuff out of me.

It's easier to shoot my 2.5" SP101 with my 180gr deer loads than .38sp LSWHP out of the 2.5" J frame.

[Paladin]

A lot of very good information has been given. Having run the range for a state police agency with both revolvers and semi autos I would recommend the revolver and the weight training. Start with a 22 in the model she likes the look of and let her work up to a .38 or .357 if she wants too. My wife and daughter have the choice of anything from my toy collection and carry revolvers. If possible after she has practiced with a .22 a few times take her to a range that rents firearms or with friends that will let her try some of the different one. An S&W in .22 mag might be the best compromise. Keeping in mind the shorter the barrel the harder it is to master.

[Steve Collins]

The Beretta 86 .380 is the one with the tip up barrel; it can also be carried cocked and locked for the first round, eliminating the DA pull. An excellent choice for CCW.

Guys, a snubby .38 is not a beginners gun! Accomplished shooters have to work at them, do you think a casual shooter will do better?

A better choice might be the K-frame with a 3" barrel. like the Smith model 64. The K-frames are easier to get a good trigger job done on, and there is more gun to actually hold on to, plus the extra weight helps to dampen recoil a bit more. Price-wise, they are pretty inexpensive right now, as there is a number of them on the used market.

The biggest thing is getting the right stocks on it. Once you have that, it makes the shooting part a lot easier.

[AJMD429]

Dittos on the .22 'practice gun' - After she's shot 1,000 rounds through a .22 of some kind, the rest becomes MUCH easier.

[Idahoser]

I'm not backing off my recommendation that a revolver is the one that will let a "shoot cause I have to" shooter get off a shot. A semi auto will generally confuse the "I don't have a gun because I like guns, I have a gun to have a gun" shooter.

If you don't believe me try the experiment. Surely there are dozens of hoplophobes you know. Make a special case out of one and arrange to have a new shooter (who didn't have to hate guns) discuss her/his new experience in the presence of your gun hater.

Every gun hater is going to be curious and you WILL get this gun hater to the range, if you do it right.

Start with only the most basic safety instruction (point it that way) and put a loaded revolver on the bench and tell her, "shoot that target" 4 yards down range. She will accomplish the mission with no further instruction. If she turns for assistance, just say "go ahead", no further instructions. OF COURSE be in a position to prevent turning with the gun. I'm talking about "FIRST SHOT" training here, you don't want hours of lecture just to pop off a mag or cylinder full, do this first with any new shooter.

But my experiment for you here is to prove that a non-gun person will pick up that revolver and shoot it.

Now do the same with any semiauto and see how much more confusion there is.

YOU AND I remember how to work everything on a semiauto becuase we WANT to. Our beginner and those (usually ladies) we love do it because WE want them to, and if you give her a semi, she's going to forget the minute you get out of the range how to work it, because it's not HERS, it's YOURS.

Now who can get the best groups at 25 yards is not part of this discussion. I'm preparing her for the "knife range" gunfight, it's doubtful whether she's even going to remember if she saw the sights, okay? She WILL get off a shot in a revolver, she will DOUBTFULLY get off a shot with the semi. AFTER that, sure, it may have been a point of discussion that she may then say, "Hey, I want a semi" but at that point, SHE is the shooter and she will pay attention the way you want her to.

GO WITH THE REVOLVER if the person is not going to learn because they want to.

[donw]

springfield XDsub compact 9mm...but i would NOT carry it in a purse or 'fanny pack'

if a DA wheel gun is selected, i would make sure the trigger pull is easily managed "out of the box" as here in the "golden state" instructors in CCW classes caution about using handloaded ammo or modified guns (especially in trigger modified) for CCW.

it seems many zealous young prosecutors like to try to hang a "murder one" on self defense cases in the case of handloaded ammo or a modified firearm.

i DO NOT modify any firearm i intend to use as a concealed SD weapon. i make sure it works the way i want it to "right out of the box".

[ole pizen slinger]

Donw,
I guess I'm a little dense--what does handloaded ammo have to do with self defense being prosecutable as murder?

Also, the reason I recommended the 2 inch S&W Model 60 is that it is easily concealable and if she has to use it, it probably will be on a subject less than 15 feet away. More of a point and shoot situation. For this type senario I think the short nose pistol would do fine.
ole pizen slinger

[Old Ironsights]

Donw,
I guess I'm a little dense--what does handloaded ammo have to do with self defense being prosecutable as murder?

Nothing... except to the Jury of Morons who can be led to believe that handloads are "superduper killer bullets" and that taking the time to make them up amounts to premeditation...

Also, the reason I recommended the 2 inch S&W Model 60 is that it is easily concealable and if she has to use it, it probably will be on a subject less than 15 feet away. More of a point and shoot situation. For this type senario I think the short nose pistol would do fine. ole pizen slinger

I agree on the utility of small revolvers... but the 'shootability of a J frame is highly questionable to me. My SP101 isn't that much bigger but it is far and away easier to put on target... round 1 or round 5. And I've shot the two side by side. (A Mdl 36 & my Sp101...)

I am NOT a fan of a J frame as a primary defensive weapon.

[jd45]

She needs to develop some finger & grip strength by excercising to be able to work a double-action snub, which would be the most dependable "Oh Sh*t" pistol she could bring to bear in a life or death situation, IMHO. jd45

[FWiedner]

Have you looked at one of Ruger's new LCP .380's?

Very compact, 6+1, very shootable even on small hands.

Jeff Quinn did a write up over on Gunblast not long ago.

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-LCP.htm

[Tycer]

In the original post, nothing was said about this being a concealed carry gun.

We all know little guns kick harder and have a short, almost useless sight radius.

In addition to a Ruger 22/45 .22 LR for fun and training, I think any of the full size, polymer, striker fired, 9mm, with a 4"+ barrel are the way to go for a new beginner's gun. They come in grip styles to fit every hand, the longer sight radius, grip being high near the barrel, and barrel mass make them much easier to shoot and shoot follow-up shots, the springs in a 9 are fairly light, the striker-fired guns use a lighter mainspring than hammer guns so the DA pull is lighter than most stock revolvers, and the 9mm ammo is cheap in ball and plenty adequate in personal defense loadings.

Add some XS 24/7 sights and/or laser grips and the new shooter's confidence and skill will grow quickly.

I will reiterate that practice practice practice is what will help her be a great, confident, lifelong shooter.
I also think if she is not the person to choose the gun at her own leisure, she'll never enjoy it, and it may cost someone their life because she'll never learn to use it well.

[donw]

Donw,
I guess I'm a little dense--what does handloaded ammo have to do with self defense being prosecutable as murder?

Nothing... except to the Jury of Morons who can be led to believe that handloads are "superduper killer bullets" and that taking the time to make them up amounts to premeditation...

that's it in a nutshell...