Resurrecting An Old One .....

[JimT]

Three Five Seven

Enough has been written about the .357 that I have no need to rehash old history. Suffice it to say that the First Magnum impressed people from the beginning and that it still has a place in one's battery today. No collection of handguns is complete without one.

While it was touted as a "car stopper" for Police work, it did duty as a game-getter from it's birth. Major Doug Wesson and Elmer Keith were the first notables to use it on game and write it up. Today it is fashionable to pooh-pooh it as a Big Game gun but these men did not see it that way.

There is some reason, however, to at least (in principle) agree with those who are hesitant about the use of the .357 on Big Game.

The factory loadings today are loaded to less pressure than the original loads and consequently have less power. The early .357's were loaded in cartridges that utilized a Large primer and heavy loads developed quite a bit of pressure above the established levels of today's factory offerings.

early357_1.jpg

early357_2.jpg

357 Magnum Testimonials from earlier days

1935
Major Douglas Wesson
Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)
Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)
Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)
Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

The Antelope was hit the first time at 125 yards. It ran, stopped and was shot the second time at 200 yards. The second shot killed it.

The Bull Elk was killed with one shot through the lungs.

The Moose was shot in the chest near the base of the neck. It cut the 2nd rib, passed through both lungs, sheared the 8th rib on the off side and stopped just under the hide. No follow-up shot was required.

Douglas-Wesson-with-Moose-from-357-Magnum.jpg

These animals were taken on a Fall hunt in Wyoming, near the West entrance of Yellowstone Park. The Grizzly was taken later in Canada.

The above game was taken using factory loads which were a 158 gr. bullet at 1515 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. (S&W later shortened the barrels to 8 3/8" as we have today)

To those who criticized, the Major replied that they "..had not the slightest conception of what we have accomplished in ballistics.." - a statement that still applies today.

1936
Elmer Keith
"When the new .357 cartridge and gun came out I gave it a very thorough tryout ... and found it had more actual knockdown killing power on all game that I shot with it than any other factory loaded, real revolver cartridge on the market.... (It) proved to have much more actual shock effect and killing power ...than any factory loaded revolver or auto pistol cartridge including the .44 Special and the .45 Colt..."
Sixgun Cartridges and Loads  pages 29 & 30

1938
Walter Sykes
Wildebeest - 100 yards - complete penetration, knockdown on the first shot.
His Guide, John Hunter (of "HUNTER" and "AFRICA AS I HAVE FOUND IT") wrote that the .357 was "the one and only hand-arm for African hunting"...

1938
Sasha Siemel - Professional Hunter in South America
6 Tigres - Amazon Jaguar's - using the S&W .357 Magnum
He wrote, "...It does all the work of a rifle and is light and easy to carry.."

SW-.357-Magnum-Revolver-Jaguar.jpg

WW II
General George Patton
He referred to his S&W .357 Magnum as his "killing machine"....

Patton_Reg_Mag.jpg

1980
Skeeter Skelton
"No automatic cartridge is as powerful as the .357 Magnum........Years ago I stated that if I could have only one gun, it would be a Model 27 S&W."
Skeeter Skelton on Handguns page 16

[4t5]

I like mine.
while we’re at it , what was the reason it is now loaded down , smaller j frame type guns ?

[nwcatman]

i took in a S&W 13-2 4" on trade from a BP agent that had assisted me one night on patrol. i was arresting 3 and only had 2 cuffs so happened by and lent me his cuffs. anyways..years later he showed up at the shop and i took it in trade. son went away to college and i gave it to him. Bbl looked shot out by then. after 30 plus years of riding around in various trucks, usually on the floor under the seat. he returned it to me a coupla weeks ago. EVERYTHING is pitted so some degree. rifling looks ok though. Bluing took a big hit. took the side plate off and it looks like the undercarriage of a garbage truck from the 50s. cleaned the old solidified grease out, and have some springs from Wilson on the way. gonna give the frame innards and the moving parts the ole mirror polish shine slick it up job. if it shoots its now mine again! maybe get a pic added soon.

[JimT]

I like mine.
while we’re at it , what was the reason it is now loaded down , smaller j frame type guns ?

That is what I have been told.

[piller]

Just a question for now. Are the GP100 and the 586 strong enough to handle the high pressure .357 loads?

[Bill in Oregon]

Liking your story, nwcatman, my friend.
While my first handgun purchase the day I turned 21 in 1974 was a Model 28 Highway Patrolman with 4-inch barrel -- from the PayLess Drugstore chain in Oregon! -- I have concluded over the years that the .357 has to run at full pressure and obnoxious racket to deliver the same goods that a .44 Special or .45 Colt can do at much less pressure and with much better manners -- and can easily do better with a little more starch. Just my take.
Now in a smaller package, say a Ruger 101, the .357 comes into play as being much more versatile as the goal isn't to set out to hunt with it, but to stop ugly things from happening at close range: a cougar, a black bear, a badly injured horse that must be put down, and of course any two-legged swine.

[JimT]

Just a question for now. Are the GP100 and the 586 strong enough to handle the high pressure .357 loads?

I don't know. Never tried those guns. I am sure someone on here has.

[Bronco]

First handgun I bought was a .357 in 1967!
It was a Colt Python 6" barrel. I was 17 years old and had saved my money; I gave the cash to my dad and paid $175.00 for it. The price included a box of 38 spl and a box of 357's. Still have it and it has been used but not abused. The holster wear on the bluing tells me stories of my backwood times with it. Brings a warm feeling to me!

[Walt]

Smith and Ruger developed the 586/686 and the GP100 expressly to replace the model 19 and the Security Six, respectively. I have not heard stories about the Security Six having trouble handling hot .357 loads but the K frame Smiths (model 19/66) had issues, especially with frequently shooting 125 grain rounds loaded to the hilt. Currently, both manufacturers state that those same hot loads can be shot to one's heart's content without long-term damage.

[nwcatman]

Liking your story, nwcatman, my friend.
While my first handgun purchase the day I turned 21 in 1974 was a Model 28 Highway Patrolman with 4-inch barrel -- from the PayLess Drugstore chain in Oregon! -- I have concluded over the years that the .357 has to run at full pressure and obnoxious racket to deliver the same goods that a .44 Special or .45 Colt can do at much less pressure and with much better manners -- and can easily do better with a little more starch. Just my take.
Now in a smaller package, say a Ruger 101, the .357 comes into play as being much more versatile as the goal isn't to set out to hunt with it, but to stop ugly things from happening at close range: a cougar, a black bear, a badly injured horse that must be put down, and of course any two-legged swine.

thats probably the same year, or close to it, i bought a 28 to carry on patrol in the el paso (kinda) wild west. my back still hates me for it. in the 80s i had it converted to 44 spl by fernie ezparsiga (sp), the gunsmith at Cooks sporting goods in el paso. loved it. let it go later on and still ranks high on my list of regretful decisions. that and my 68 ford mustang and 69 camero, both tricked out, and my 70's toyota land cruiser. i got married yesterday, in 1972. and yes, we had our anniversary "discussion" about why i had to sell em. i still think its silly to think that the kids all had to have their own seat and air conditioning.

[ywaltzucanrknrl]

That's a good piece of history Jim. I wonder where they were hunting. Now the only west entrance is in Idaho and I believe any west entrance would have had to be from Idaho, the north and north east entrances are in Gardner and Cooke City Montana, the south entrance is from Jackson and the east entrance is on the North Fork of the Shoshone out of Cody. It is possible they were hunting in the park, I have read several books about hunts in the park, although they were earlier dates, in the late 1800's and several before the park was founded. I understand the park can allow hunting it is just their policy not to allow hunting but that may have been different at some time in the past.
If it was meant to read East instead of west, which makes sense as both are in Wyoming or close, then they would have hunted on either the North Fork of the Shoshone which is where Bill Cody had a hunting lodge or on the upper reaches of the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone close to Cooke City Montana---the Wyoming border is only a couple of miles from Cooke City.
All that aside, it's interesting to see an antelope shot at 200 yards with a pistol, that is quite a feat.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I still load.357 to the old standard but I only use these loads in Rugers and N frame Smiths.

[Paladin]

I bought (my mom signed for it) my first .357 in 1972, a Colt 4-inch Trooper (New Model, with the shrouded ejector rod). I was issued a Colt Trooper (Old Model) in 1977 in the State Police, and got a new S&W Model 19 in 1978, mailed to me at the office. We traded to 66s, then to 686s in the 80s due to wear. I have loaded and fired 1000s of rounds of .38/.357 MAG using it for hunting both 2-legged and 4-legged targets. It is the round I have tried to keep or duplicate the ballistics of on most of my duty weapons since then. I had never used a rifle in that caliber until the last 10 years, and am very happy with its results with soft point and cast bullets. I still have and use a few 66s, 686s, Rugers, and a Rossi 16-inch. In the lower 48, they are GREAT.

[stretch]

Resurrecting an old one....

For a second there, I thought the thread was gonna be autobiographical.......

I'm also a big fan of the 357 Magnum. One of the most versatile - if not THE most versatile - handgun
cartridge out there.

Lots of of first-rate launching platforms by S&W, Ruger and others. I think I'm up to 6 wheel guns in 357
now. 14.0 gr. of 2400 driving a 158 gr. JHP is accurate in all of 'em. If I need more power, I'll use a 41
Magnum. But for whitetail and black bear at close range, and for social work, I'd think the 357 is plenty.

The SP101 can be made MUCH more comfortable to shoot by adding a set of Hogue wooden grips.
The difference is astounding!

-Stretch

[AmBraCol]

I've never owned a 357, but just loaded up some for my brother-in-law and found a box in my stash of ammo. May have to remedy that some day, just never found on that tickled my fancy enough to pull the trigger on a purchase. As mentioned up above, I can get the power without the bark by moving up to 44 or 45 caliber. I've shot plenty of 357 over the years, but in borrowed guns. And each time I do I'm reminded of why I prefer the larger calibers. Now 38 spl? Long ago I lost cound of how many rounds of THAT caliber I've loaded over the years. Last week Bob Baker told me he's probably shot less than 100 rounds of 38 Spl in his lifetime, which I found interesting. Never have seen any of that large primer 357 brass, but more than enough small primer 45 ACP to last me a while!

[Scott Tschirhart]

Just a question for now. Are the GP100 and the 586 strong enough to handle the high pressure .357 loads?

They are strong enough.

The problem pre-dates the J-frame.357s. K frames suffered forcing cone damage when shot with too much of the old loads.

[Scott Tschirhart]

http://www.darkcanyon.net/MyFriend_The357.htm

Here’s a great article.

Here’s another from my friend Tank.

https://americanhandgunner.com/discover ... ite-loads/

[jeepnik]

Pretty good article.

My observations are simply this.

For personal defense. In a K frame or larger, with a 4" minimum barrel length, the .357 mag is manageable, accurate and effective. Obviously an L or N frame make it even more manageable. In anything with less than a 4" barrel it's a lot of unnecessary noise and flash, the .38 spl will work as well.

For hunting. I'm not typically a handgun hunter, though I have done some. The .357 mag is adequate for up to roughly deer sized animals. Again, this is with a minimum 4" barrel. Six or even longer barrels are preferred as they maximize both the ballistics and sight radius (although with today's optics the sight radius is becoming less relevant). It is excellent on coyotes, assuming you can get them in close enough.

[Steve in MO]

I had to replace the barrel on my 19-4 because I'd shot it with a lot of hot .357 loads. Cracked the forcing cone. Since then, I shoot .357 loads that are hotter than .38 +P, but still less than full power .357. Now, in my Blackhawk .357 or Model 28, I'll shoot full power .357 all day and twice on Sunday.

[AJMD429]

.
Though I think the 'best' handgun cartridges would be 45 Colt and 32-20, I do feel the 357 Mag is VERY practical, and as close to a do-it-all cartridge as there is in a handgun.

Maybe in a carbine, too, actually.

One thing I always wondered about 'barrel lengths' in guns - why the odd lengths - 8-3/8"...???? Why not just 8", or even 8-1/2"...?

WHy go from 8-3/4" to 8-3/8" - that seems such a trivial change. About twelve millimeters.

"...The above game was taken using factory loads which were a 158 gr. bullet at 1515 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. (S&W later shortened the barrels to 8 3/8" as we have today)..."

I'm partial to 7-1/2" Blackhawks, but I'd not like them any less if they were a 'mere' 7" or an 'ungainly' 8"...

Anyone know how they select these lengths...???

[JimT]

I am guessing that it's decided by the length of barrel material and how many barrels can be cut out of it of the various lengths that the particular firearm manufacture produces.

[samsi]

I don't remember where I read it, but S&W set the 8 3/8" length because it provided the longest sight radius allowable in Bullseye competition.

It's also amazing that I remembered that.

[44shooter]

I don't remember where I read it, but S&W set the 8 3/8" length because it provided the longest sight radius allowable in Bullseye competition.

It's also amazing that I remembered that.

Yes, I couldn’t remember the particulars but did recall the 8 3/8 inch barrels was for some sort of maximum gamesmanship. Now, we see 4.2 inch barrels in place of fours to comply with Canadian law.

[JimT]

That's what I like about this Forum. There are people on here who know real answers. Of course! I never thought of it but the rules/regulations of the shooting games and the hunting regulations would affect everything. Thanks guys.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I had to replace the barrel on my 19-4 because I'd shot it with a lot of hot .357 loads. Cracked the forcing cone. Since then, I shoot .357 loads that are hotter than .38 +P, but still less than full power .357. Now, in my Blackhawk .357 or Model 28, I'll shoot full power .357 all day and twice on Sunday.

A wise policy.

[piller]

Kind of the reason I asked about GP100 handling the pressure is that I have one. All I have ever shot out of it are factory loads. I am aware that current factory loads in .357 are a lower pressure load than the original loads were. I need to get some small pistol magnum primers and load up some hotter 158 grain loads to find out what the accuracy comes out to. One creek South of Waxahachie where I sometimes fish has had some wild pigs there in the past. I have had a standoff with a pig there twice. Second time I had the 10mm with me. The first time, that Taurus with .410 snake shot seemed less than comforting. No, I do not kill any snake which moves away. Rattling or aggression gets the snake killed. Yes, rattlers make me nervous, as do copperheads. So can wild pigs which do not run away.

[Rube Burrows]

I was never totally hooked on .357. I just enjoyed my 45 colts so much that I just did not tinker with the .357 much but lately I have been wanting a S&W Model 28 with a 4" barrel so bad.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Here’s an unfired Model 28-2 with a 5 inch barrel.

[samsi]

Here’s an unfired Model 28-2 with a 5 inch barrel.

There's a unicorn. A buddy once complained that I was coming across way better guns than he was, but you've got me beat.

I was at another friend's house one day and noticed an N frame on top of the refrigerator. I asked what the fridge gun was - just a 5" Pre-27...geez.