Model 94 Winchester Advice?

[Lastmohecken]

Asking advice regarding the New to me, Winchester Model 94, Oliver Winchester 38/55. But the caliber is not the issue. In an earlier post, I mentioned that I bought an unfired but no box or paperwork, Oliver Winchester off of Gunbroker. Actually, I found it on Gunbroker with a buy it now, and I did get it cheaper then that even, when I called directly and bought it off of the dealer in Penn. So, bottom line is did not buy it thru Gunbroker. I knew it had a broken rear sight but that didn't bother me. However, he failed to tell me that it had a problem with lockup.

Here's my problem, the locking bolt stops about 1/16 of inch short of being flush with the top of the frame. This prevents the lever from going all of the way closed to activate the little part that clears the trigger so it can move rearward to fire the gun. I can squeeze the lever hard and finally get enough on it to activate the little pivot part and manage to drop the hammer. The gun has never been fired, and this is probably why it's been a safe queen all of these years. But the problem is that something is blocking the lever from pushing the locking bolt all of the way up, till it flush with the frame, like it should be.

So, I figure either the locking block is out of spec or the lever itself is out of spec. Or maybe it something else. I have been shooting model 94's since I was 12 years old but I have never taken one apart. I think the gun is safe enough to fire, and I can tell the locking block is up high enough to allow the firing pin to line up. And I don't have any 33/55 ammo yet, but I fed a 30/30 round thru the action and the bolt closes on it, so I figure headspace is fine. It will feed chamber and eject a 30/30 round. So, the problem is something is blocking the lever movement, or the locking block movement, which of course blocks the lever. Bottom line is the locking block is hindered from it's full rise to the top of the frame.
Now I know I could just file down the trigger block and the gun would fire without having to put a death squeeze on the lever, but that does not really fix the problem of the locking bolt, not going to the top of the frame.

Have any of you guys run into this problem before? Or does anyone suspect which part might be out of spec?

[Malamute]

Can you push the lever lock piece up with your finger with the lever open or not fully closed? In other words is the lever lock the part not allowing movement or something else?

[ollogger]

Have you had the stock off? thats where i would start, spray the heck out of it with
gun scrubber or what ever you may use, lube it up & see what happens




ollogger

[Marc]

Check the ejector. It might be hanging up or blocked. That would stop the bolt from closing. Use a screwdriver and see if you can push it back flush with the bolt face.

The extractor slot in the barrel may not be deep enough and that would stop the bolt from closing completely too.

[Lastmohecken]

Thank you Gentleman, for the replies.
I fixed it, just a few minutes ago. I kept looking at it and taking measurements against a couple of different other Commemoratives from about that same vintage, and shining a light down in there, and I finally figured it out. The floorplate, (that's what I will call it, anyhow) The plate that drops down, which the lever runs through, that plate was rubbing really hard on the back of the frame. And I compared that to the other rifles and I saw that those rifles had a lot more clearance, some were even kind of gappy. But this Oliver Winchester had zero clearance and was binding/rubbing hard against the frame.

So, I filed the corners rounder and polished them out with a fine stope and presto! Everything was fine, and it worked slick as could be. Whew! I thought for a while I had really got taken with a lemon, and it would be a lot harder to figure it out and fix it. The floor plate was just defective/poorly fitted, etc. I don't know how in the world it got through quality control. I mean if anyone had of worked the lever and tried to let the hammer down it would have been glaringly obvious. And this gun has been that way for 40 years. It is unfired, I am sure, and must have been a safe queen, or something, probably stashed in the back of someone's safe or closet and forgotten about.

I am just relieved that it was an easy fix, once I figured it out.

[Lastmohecken]

Thank you Gentleman, for the replies.
I fixed it, just a few minutes ago. I kept looking at it and taking measurements against a couple of different other Commemoratives from about that same vintage, and shining a light down in there, and I finally figured it out. The floorplate, (that's what I will call it, anyhow) The plate that drops down, which the lever runs through, that plate was rubbing really hard on the back of the frame. And I compared that to the other rifles and I saw that those rifles had a lot more clearance, some were even kind of gappy. But this Oliver Winchester had zero clearance and was binding/rubbing hard against the frame.

So, I filed the corners rounder and polished them out with a fine stone and presto! Everything was fine, and it worked slick as could be. Whew! I thought for a while I had really got taken with a lemon, and it would be a lot harder to figure it out and fix it. The floor plate was just defective/poorly fitted, etc. I don't know how in the world it got through quality control. I mean if anyone had of worked the lever and tried to let the hammer down it would have been glaringly obvious. And this gun has been that way for 40 years. It is unfired, I am sure, and must have been a safe queen, or something, probably stashed in the back of someone's safe or closet and forgotten about.

I am just relieved that it was an easy fix, once I figured it out.

[Griff]

It's called the "link". The other is the "trigger block safety", first introduced on the 1873 Winchester. The other part you might check is the "friction stud", it's the part that sticks out from the rear of the link and engages the lower tang, it can stick in it's channel in the link and make the action hard to close, it has a spring to keep it extended, but should move rather freely in it's channel. Generally speaking, the action shouldn't stay closed unless gripped around the lever and upper tang releasing the trigger block safety.

[Bob Hatfield]

The "Link" on the post 64 model 94 Winchesters is the weak link of those guns in my humble opinion. The little cartridge stop (tit) on the end of it that holds and releases the cartridges from the magazine occasionally breaks off or wears to the point that it lets a cartridge loose from the magazine and jams it above the link and below the lifter. This jams a 94 so bad that you cannot operate the action.

I have experience this twice myself and once with a cousin's 94. My first one broke off luckily at the range and not while hunting. The only way to clear this kind of 94 jam is to take the magazine plug out and spring out and pour all the cartridges out including the one below the carrier (lifter). Then use the rifle as a single shot until you can now hopefully find a new link. The second one that I experience is that the little cartridge stop wore down and started to occasionally release a cartridge under the carrier.

Finding a new post 64 link is almost like a needle in a haystack now and when you do, you'll question why you paid so much. So, the only option is to have it TIG welded up and grind and file it back to shape with one to copy off of. It is a P.I.T.A. There may be gunsmiths that are good at repairing these as a specialty.

I think the problem was heat treating the metal of this part of the link. That little cartridge stop has to be a combination of ductile and hard just right, so it doesn't break or wear off. Evidentially Winchester got many of these wrong occasionally after 64.

[Lastmohecken]

I remember my cousin had the problem with a shell jumping under the lifter and jamming an early post 64 model. He traded it off after that for a Marlin. But I believe most of the problems were in the first few years and by the late 60, the post 64's were pretty good. I remember I had one, probably around a 70 model when that got away from the sheetmetal lifter and it worked flawlessly. But I have a Buffalo Bill with the sheetmetal lifter and it has never given me an issue.

[Lastmohecken]

I fined tuned my rifle a little bit more today, and it works flawlessly now. I received my order from Buffalo Bore today. They are pretty heavy loads, shooting a 255 grain bullet at about 1950fps or so. They fed, fired and ejected flawlessly. When i got the rifle, it had a broken rear sight, and I temporarily installed another sight today, just to shoot it a little bit. As suspected, I knew that front sight was going to be too short. Mainly, today, I just wanted to see how the rifle handled the Buffalo Bores, and recoil was a little more than a 30/30 but nowhere as stout as my 45/70's. Easy extraction, no signs of excessive pressure. This ought to be a heck of a deer load.

Anyhow, eventually, I will be getting a new Skinner rear sight and front sight for it.

I really like the looks of that Buffalo Bore bullet they load for that round. It's supposed to have a soft lead core, that expands but doesn't blow up or anything. It's supposed to be good for even elk, as long as you don't try to stretch the range too far. I plan to try it out on a deer or two, this coming fall.

[Griff]

The cartridge stop at the front of the link can be welded up and reshaped pretty easily. I've MIG & stick welded them in the past. After reshaping, heat to a cherry red and quench in oil. 30+ years after doing my 1st, it's still holding up. I only have one with the stamped steel carrier, in a '67 Canadian Centennial that the previous owner converted to a "Trapper" w/a 16" bbl. Nary a lick of trouble with it. I strongly suspect that problems with the stamped steel carrier were caused by someone trying to force an round that was too long thru the action, or something akin. I believe that the mdl 94 Winchester, along with the 1886, FN Auto 5, Colt 1900 and BAR were JMB's greatest feats.

[LeverGunner]

Interesting discussion. I was thinking about what the problem could have been before I read the finale. Glad you got it sorted out.

[EdinCT]

I am also glad to hear you worked it out. I would never of thought we would have a hard time finding parts for a 94. I had replaced al the pins and changed the lifter to a forged one on my 32 Special
before I gifted it. It still worked fine but the lifter bothered me. When I had bought my first 94 in 1973 a man who worked for my Father talked that lifter down so bad I think it lead me to trade it for a Marlin within a year lol!

[Lastmohecken]

Thanks guys, yes, I was very relieved when I realized what the problem was, I was worried that it would be a more involved fix, requiring the services of a gunsmith.

[Lastmohecken]

The cartridge stop at the front of the link can be welded up and reshaped pretty easily. I've MIG & stick welded them in the past. After reshaping, heat to a cherry red and quench in oil. 30+ years after doing my 1st, it's still holding up. I only have one with the stamped steel carrier, in a '67 Canadian Centennial that the previous owner converted to a "Trapper" w/a 16" bbl. Nary a lick of trouble with it. I strongly suspect that problems with the stamped steel carrier were caused by someone trying to force an round that was too long thru the action, or something akin. I believe that the mdl 94 Winchester, along with the 1886, FN Auto 5, Colt 1900 and BAR were JMB's greatest feats.

I think most of the issues were in the early post 64's (64 to probably 67 maybe 68? My first one, was a 30/30 traded to me, by my grandfather for a wrecked motorcycle, in about 70 or 71, and the rifle was not new, but pretty minty. He traded to me to get me off of the motorcycle, because I had had a couple of bad wrecks. I was 13 at the time.