The Beretta 92 Centurion - Apr 29 update and frustration

[AJMD429]

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Just got one, and it is likely going to replace my trusty Taurus 92.

Ayoob likes it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX9OuWsdUv8

(...and likes the 92 in general - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN--QZp8S0U...)

My goal is/was to find a 92-like design without the slide-mounted safety (I prefer the 1911-style). That's why I went with the Taurus, and it has functioned flawlessly for 30 years or so as my primary carry gun.

However my ageing eyes don't do well with 'stock' handgun sights, so I have put 'ghost ring' sights on my Ruger revolvers where possible, and a Glock, and a couple 22 LR target/hunting pistols. I tried a red-dot on a Ruger RXM, but cannot get fast acquisition of the dot, no matter how much I practice 'presentation' - PLUS I have to think that in a crisis, the 'presentation' may be left-handed with a bloody eye and from on the ground, and have to be FAST. I can see the red-dot as fun for range competitions but just not for a real-world CCW gun.

So now the latest experiment was to put a Marble's Bullseye on a 1911 I have in 9mm, just because I still do like 1911's, and 9mm, and that particular gun had a rear sight dovetail close to the Marble's Bullseye dimensions.

The sight picture on my Marble's-1911 versus Red-dot-Ruger for comparison...(note the front was not fully drifted to center yet as I was still testing sight height).



viewtopic.php?p=1014043#p1014043

The red-dot in the Marble's setup is not only visible BEFORE it is lined up within the rear opening (unlike the red-dot), there is also much less obstruction of view with the setup than most red dots (even without cowitnessed sights), and WAY less obstruction than regular 'open iron' sights. With regular irons, you cannot really see anything below or closer to the point of aim, unlike with the Marble's Bullseye.

Here's a markup on a Marble's Bullseye view to show how much is blocked (the lower half of the potential sight picture) with a 'regular' iron sight:



I really LOVE that setup - WAY faster for me than the red-dot, and no batteries to die, far less bulky, more durable, and inexpensive (other than I may need to hire a gunsmith to fit it if I chicken out).

Anyway, the Centurion from Beretta, unlike the Taurus, allows replacement of the front and rear sights, and it appears a 'suppressor height' front will fit with tne Marble's rear, so I'm psyched and fIngers crossed.

[Ysabel Kid]

That's why I bought the Taurus 30+ years ago as well. It has a frame-mounted, non-decocker safety. Plus it was a lot more affordable when I started out!

[Sarge]

I've owned two 9mms my whole life. The only one I regret parting with was a 92G (decocker) Centurion, one the most accurate pistols I ever owned.

[AJMD429]

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I dropped the baby off at the gunsmith today - they said two week turnaround - they work with a machine shop that will re-mill the dovetail of the fixed (there is a ramp-kind) Marbles Bullseye sight to fit my Centurion and install that, and loosen the 'staked' front sight for me, so I can shoot a group with it, a group with the 'suppressor height' fiberoptic front I have already purchased, and then by seeing where those groups hit I can decide on what height front sight to order for it for the final results.

I haven't had a good gunsmith experience since 1975 when a guy was willing to humor me and remove the front ramp and sight from my Super Blackhawk '200th Year Commemorative' and replace it with a ramped 1/16" gold-bead. I made my own 'v' notch rear sight blade insert from a hacksaw blade.

Of course I think the only other gunsmith experience was getting a one-piece rail mounted on a breakopen shotgun in around 1995 or so and that's when another gunsmith drilled and tapped the chamber area, and the tapered area just forward of it, and very snugly screwed down the rail section, nicely FOLLOWING the contour of the tapered barrel It was about a five degree bend...!

Hopefully this one will go well - the shop I'm using has an excellent reputation, and they do work with a machine shop if there are parts needing modified or fabricated.

Now I'm tempted to see if they'll mill out a Marble's Bullseye to have it threaded and shaped to ride in the rear-sight channel of a Williams FP sight...

The end result would be really cool on a levergun - the speed of a Marbles Bullseye but the adjustability of a Williams FP. I think any machinist could do it pretty well.

[Streetstar]

Ken HAckathorn was on the GunTalk show a bit ago ----

He feels the red dot on a defensive pistol is fine for a guy who puts 3 or 4000 rounds a year downrange , --(and there are likely a few of these guys' and gals among the Leverguns collective who do that ) -- but -- for the rest of us having good open sights is still a better approach

Dont know - i only have one red dot equipped pistol right now - its a Trijicon RMR, so not a cheap one, --- but i'd rather not carry that one -- i just dont have enough rounds downrange to trust being able to instantly find the dot like a competition shooter

[Paladin]

Even many duty weapons issued now have red dot sights. It is a massive step up in accuracy and ability in low light. As most predators (both four and two-legged) prefer the dark. I have a few and really like them. The rifle was set up this way after my first Grizzly in the camp experience at 0200.

As issued

DPS Shadow Systems.jpg

Co Pilot.jpg

[Streetstar]

Even many duty weapons issued now have red dot sights. It is a massive step up in accuracy and ability in low light. As most predators (both four and two-legged) prefer the dark. I have a few and really like them. The rifle was set up this way after my first Grizzly in the camp experience at 0200.

As issued
DPS Shadow Systems.jpg
Co Pilot.jpg

Paladin --- i get this on a primary weapon , but don't on a sidearm -- I will concede that although i have a bit of downrange experience in ugly places --- it is not what you have --- not even close

But on the handgun where you are only carrying 2-3 spare mags if that -- the use in a military application is "last resort only" and at 5 yards or less does it matter? If i have lost my primary the need to pull the secondary is a ---"bohica" situation and a --- get the heck out of there

Grizzly in camp when you have a sight picture on a long gun, sure -- would be faster than an LPVO in low or no light for sure

Sidearms in military applications now kind of remind me of knives when i first deployed ---- a lot of us were issued sheath knives (mine was a MK 2 ) that we hung upside down on the LBE (87-92 -- long time ago but not stone age yet) -- and were given a bit of leeway for civilian stuff too -- Chris Reeves , early Essee stuff - etc etc , even Randalls for those who didnt spend their enlisted paychecks on IROC-Z's ) ---

After a couple of trips out those got left back at camp --- stupid Spyderco in the pocket or the Camillus 4 blade folder got most things done -- when 2 pounds mattered it was better spent on an extra M16 magazine and this was learned fairly early


I am trying like heck to get the hang of the pistol pictured below as it cost me enough for that package --- but i keep coming back to my non red dot equipped Model 20 as a faster gun for me --

[AJMD429]

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Two and a half MONTHS now, and they called today and tell me that the machine shop they subcontract out precision milling to finally got back with them (they were nagging the machine shop about why they hadn't done the milling on the sights yet), and the machine shop said they had to back-burner it because they got a huge order from one of their main associates (they build aircraft parts of some sort), and are instantly now "at least three months behind"....

I would do it myself but was unsure I could do the precision fitting needed, especially if I didn't have known dimensions or angles to shoot for (the dovetails on the sights need to be reshaped and re-angled to match the rear dovetail on the Centurion). The region I used the plural 'sights', is because I figured I would have two of them done because if I like the setup enough I will want to get another Centurion and set it up identically as a spare. I've always felt you should have a spare of your CCW.

I could do it myself except I don't know the angle of the dovetail on a Centurion, and I really don't have any kind of precision instrument with which to measure it. Odds of me getting hold of anyone 'inside' Beretta that could tell me the dimensions and angles are slim.

I don't know enough about machine shops and I am sure there is a variety of expertise depending on what their main line of work is, but I'm not even that convinced that they would have the ability to precisely measure a female dovetail's angle and base width.

I guess if can remove the existing rear sight, I could at least measure it and get the base width, and I can probably come closer to measuring the male part angle then the female. Then I'll have to make a sight holder/jig out of aluminum or something I can use to hold the sight in place and use as a file-guide. The overall width of the dovetail on the sight needs to be narrowed as well, but that shouldn't be too hard. Then probably some sort of cold-blueing.

VERY FRUSTRATING time-setback though...

Plus it's almost a 50 mile drive to the shop and it's difficult to get there without taking time off due to my work hours.

I really want to update the sites because although at the range I've been able to get used to using my electronic red dot I have on a Ruger Glock clone - I am convinced that in a real world combat situation where you might be knocked down, shooting from a weird position or whatever, I remain VERY skeptical that the red dot in an electronic sight is going to somehow magically and automatically come into view in that tiny window just from 'muscle memory'...! Whereas the fluorescent orange dot with my setup is visible even when it is NOT within the rear sight 'window'. It is MUCH faster for me to acquire, in both 'range stance' as well as roll-then-shoot kinds of drills. PLUS it is way more predictable in light ranging from 'normal' to 'bright sunlight' to 'dusk' - and workse better in pitch black when the under-barrel flashlight is being used. My red-dot electonic one auto-adjusts brightness to some extent, but not as consisently as I'd like, and when the dot is way too bright or way too dim, the sight is worthless - at least with the Marbles Bullseye and a Williams Firesight front, the sight setup is completely useable even without the fiberoptic component,

Grrrr...........

[piller]

I see some things as if they are made just for me. Green in front is like a magnet to my vision. Yellow or brass might as well not even be there. Red is better as a rear sight. Ultraviolet makes a perfect front sight to me. I see it in all conditions. I like the replaceable fiberoptics.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I’m one of those who shoots several thousand rounds per year. But I’m going to stick with what I am used to. I’m fine with iron sights.

I had my eyes checked last week. At 63 I still have 20/20 vision but I readily admit that my eyes are not what they used to be.

I understand the potential advantages of optical sights, but I’m just not ready. Maybe a little bright colored paint on a front sight….maybe.