.222 Remington/.223 Remington for deer

[Scott Tschirhart]

This may be controversial but I’m a big boy and I don’t mind if you disagree.

To start with, I’ve killed a large pickup truck bed full of deer with the .223 over the last four decades.

Is it an ideal deer cartridge? No. You need the right ammo and you need to be able to calmly place your shots and understand where to shoot a deer. But it’s no slouch either.

When I was a kid we would bring our favorite deer cartridges (snitched from our fathers) to school and compare them. As I recall, the .30-06 and.300 Savage were very popular. But we saw all kinds of cartridges. Surprisingly few used a .30-30.

Among the older men in our community the Savage 340 chambered in .222 Remington with a 4x scope was very common. 50 grain soft points killed a lot of deer.

A lot of those old men have died off and so has the .300 Savage. I miss all of them.

Now a .223 will do as good or better than a .222 and will do it with a 60 grain soft point of more robust design than the 1960s and 1970s 50 gr Remington soft point.

I don’t think deer have gotten any tougher and ammo is better. I can hit a golf ball at 140 yards with my .223. So I’m sort of confused when I read that a .223 is insufficient for deer.

It sure is sudden death on what I’ve been shooting.

[rock-steady]

My thoughts are that a 222 or 223 may be adequate for shooting deer that are posing in the open and unaware of the shooter's presence, but does not leave much room for error.

In my experience, hunting in the thick woods with deer moving or running, the 222/223 will let you down when you need it most.

In bye gone days, I hunted and killed many whitetails and wild hogs with a Ruger M77 in 22 Hornet.

My favorite bullet was the Sierra 52gr BTHP with high neck shots.

Tangling with a 350lb boar in a downed treetop in a briar thicket made me re-think my choice of calibers.....

[Ray]

There is or was a member here byron or bryan......if I remember, he was referred to as doctor leclerc and is/was a dentist or chiropractor. He wrote occasionally of using the .223/5.56 on deer on his farm. I copied some his comments from circa 2012.

"Standard round around the farm is the Hornady 55 gr soft point loaded to near m193 spec. One issue to be aware of is that at this level you will see blown primers from time to time especially if the brass is getting tired. This bullet will kill deer about as good as anything when shot in the chest or neck. If I was limited to one load this would be it."

"High performance load is a m262 Mod 1 spec load of this 75 gr OPBT bullet. It kills deer like lightning. Wound tracts are very little different from those left by 150 gr .308 soft points. This is a real killer bullet when shot at high velocity."

I seem to remember him referring to both kansas and north dakota so I imagined these deer he was hunting were large bodied and inured to the hardships of winters.

[JimT]

If it is no good for deer I would not want to use it for self-defense. Humans are generally tougher than deer.

[Ray]

A long time ago but my memories were of it having the narrow shoulders and long neck of a younger buck.....

IMG_20230920_084400623~2.jpg

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Those win. 64gr. power points are still available but are pricey compared to common 55gr. bullets. I am curious as to those of solid copper like the barnes x perform on deer.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I’m working with the Hornady 60 gr Interlock bullet.

I’m hoping for broadside pass through if placed just behind the shoulder. Let’s see what happens.

[Walt]

A 60 or so grain bullet is likely the heaviest that can be shot in a rifle with standard twist. Shooting 70 or more grain projectiles requires a shorter twist to properly stabilize them.

[Scott Tschirhart]

A 60 or so grain bullet is likely the heaviest that can be shot in a rifle with standard twist. Shooting 70 or more grain projectiles requires a shorter twist to properly stabilize them.

What is a “standard twist” for a .223 anymore?

I believe my rifle has a 1/9 inch twist. No stabilization issues.

[Old No7]

I have a superbly accurate Triple Deuce; if I'd ever used it for deer (hunting from my fixed stand) I'd probably try a Nosler Partition bullet. Haven't done it yet -- 'cause I like my leveraction! (Savage 99A in .250 Savage)

Old No7

[Ray]

I’m working with the Hornady 60 gr Interlock bullet.

I’m hoping for broadside pass through if placed just behind the shoulder. Let’s see what happens.

The first video in this y.t. video playlist features factory ammo with the same or similar hornady bullet.....even the launching platform may be familiar to you.....

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD ... Wxe7anNjCf

I have watched several of these and they are interesting.....

[Scott Tschirhart]

I believe that Lee Mason is a Texas boy. His shop is in Celina, Texas.

These videos are interesting but only to compare one load to another. They do not duplicate shots on an animal.

But these are very good for comparing one load to another.

[Bill in Oregon]

I got religion on the .223 for deer after reading the posts in this thread and some of the links.

https://www.ifish.net/threads/the-223-f ... e.1714874/

[Walt]

I don't know what the SAAMI spec for .223 barrel twist is these days but my 1980 Hornady loading manual shows their test rifle's twist was 1 in 12". Same with their test rifle in the 2021 manual. However, Lyman's 51st edition from 2022 shows their rifle used a 1 in 7" twist. As shooters are moving to heavier bullets with higher ballistic coefficients the twist in more modern rifles has become significantly shorter (faster).

The twist rate used in military M4 rifles is currently 1 in 7".

[jnyork]

I'm sorry to hear that the .223 has replaced the .222 , sad to find out the .222 is no longer any good for anything. You fellows that have .222's still wasting space in your gun safes can just send them on out to me and I wlll take care of the funeral arrangements, no charge to you of course except for the shipping.

[Walt]

I still have a Remington model 722 in .222 mag which is a splendid combination. It works for me.

[samsi]

The Speer 62 grain Gold Dot behaves very much like the 60 grain Partition in gelatin, and based on one each hog and deer shot by a friend of mine. I've got a 77 Hawkeye in .223 that I picked up with the intent of using it for deer but so far I've left it home in favor of .30 bore things.

Speaking of the .222, I had a good 700 ADL so chambered - another I shouldn't have let go.

[Scott Tschirhart]

A .222 Remington cartridge looks a lot like a miniature.30-06. Just saying.

I’ve never owned one but the ones I shot were very accurate.

[Walt]

I have read that the military had at one time planned to use the .222 mag for its NATO cartridge but it was found that the shorter neck of the .223/5.56 worked better in full-auto fire. Performance was nearly identical.

[Streetstar]

A 60 or so grain bullet is likely the heaviest that can be shot in a rifle with standard twist. Shooting 70 or more grain projectiles requires a shorter twist to properly stabilize them.

What is a “standard twist” for a .223 anymore?

I believe my rifle has a 1/9 inch twist. No stabilization issues.

1/9 or 1/7 due to the popularity of AR's in the field now i would think --- its either a pretty old firearm or one thats specifically marketed just for varmints to have a 1/12 or 14 anymore

Just purchased a Ruger Mark4 from a gentleman 3 nights ago to use as a suppressor host and plinker , --- he had just gotten back from the woods and reported to me that he had tagged out using a .223 with 62 grain solid copper bullets -- said they were long for caliber and actually worked very well

Never used them myself, but the concept of solid copper interests me now

Im in the camp that wont be using a .223 for deer, but i cant ignore the fact that others have had success with it with the right bullets

[Scott Tschirhart]

If I was to go to hunt on unfamiliar territory I would no doubt take my trusty .308.

But on the ranch I see these deer year round. I don’t have any reason to be in a hurry and I don’t have to take risky shots.

I don’t think the .223 is for everyone or that it is the best at anything. All I’m saying is if you do your part you will effectively take deer with a .223 and a good bullet.

[AJMD429]

.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of the rules are written with the assumption that there are hunters walking around with semi auto rifles who will take shots at running deer 200 or 300 yards away.

Sadly, I’ve seen that exact thing happen. Often these idiots aren’t even attending to proper backstop, either. So they not only miss the target, but endanger others.

It would be difficult to enforce in a practical manner, but especially in heavily populated areas like Indiana, it seems like the ideal situation would be to quit focusing on the cartridge and worry about the ballistic coefficient.

But certainly a 223 Remington is adequate to kill a white tail in the hands of a proper hunter.

[TedH]

I haven't used a 223 on deer, but last year I used my 25-45 Sharps to cleanly harvest a nice buck. The 25-45 is just a 223 necked up to 25 caliber. I used a 80 gr Barnes TTSX at over 3,000 fps. After seeing how it performed I wouldn't hesitate to use a 60 gr 223 at reasonable ranges.

[Ray]

three different designs of same weight compared.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KVa_I3YdCzc

Given the legendary penchant for the homesteader/poacher/survivalist to harvest deer with the .22 wmr. , I've always wondered what these would do at bee or hornet velocities or perhaps at starting load charges or somewhat reduced loads from the .223/5.56.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pr ... ctId/17163

[Scott Tschirhart]

Won’t kill a deer at all.

This is an older deer and he never developed brow tines. I shot him at about 160 yards and the 60 gr Hornady bullet made pulp out of his heart and lungs. Nice exit hole.

He field dressed without the head at 112 pounds.

[Ray]

I never doubted the results based on my few experiences with that same bullet (or the 1990's ver.), the sierra 63 gr. , the win. 64 gr. , and the 70 gr. speer at 2400 to 2900 fps. striking velocities. None went very far and the only non-exits were frontal and quartering/raking shots.

[1972RedNeck]

Headshot with my standard varmint load. Prefer my 22-250 but no qualms about my 223.

I am decent with all my rifles but I know my varmint rifles and loads like the back of my hand.

Wouldn't hesitate to take an elk with either.

[piller]

A .223 with decent bullets is just fine for deer. It would be best to not use the lighter varmint bullets. Anything over 60 grains should hold up to a decent sized deer. Twist rate becomes an issue about 77 grains. 72 grains in a 1:9 twist should give accuracy about half a minute of angle out to 300 yards. 1:7 twist might do better in 72 or lighter bullets, or it might not if your rifle doesn't like that weight. But, it is provably better for 77 grain and heavier bullets. If you handload, and get some monolithic bullets such as Barnes, you should be fine with anything up to around 500 pounds. Even though it is sneered at an awful lot, the .223 with a good bullet is accurate and will punch in deep. I have known a few people to take two similar uppers with different glass on them on a day of shooting Prairie Poodles in the morning, and deer with heavier bullets in the second upper in the afternoon. The first upper will have a 1:12 twist, and using light varmint bullets, it will leave the Prairie Poodle out so that others will come out to drag it into a hole.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I would not shoot anything larger than deer. Nor would I stretch shots out beyond 200 yards or so. Just not enough penetration.

I do want to try the Nosler Partition bullet.

I also would not take a chancy shot or shoot a moving deer.

But if a man is a good shot and does not suffer from buck fever, it will do a workmanlike job.

[piller]

Depending on the bullet, and shot presented, the .223 is competent. Again, for anything larger than varmints, I would use guilding metal or monolithic bullets. They would need to be heavy for caliber. That would reduce velocity a little, but not enough to make a real world difference.
No worries. If I hunt a black bear, I will use a .35 Remington or a .45-70. I trust certain cartridges, but it is my skill that I might need to worry about.

[marlinman93]

Great post Scott! And I'm happy to hear of more people who use a .22CF successfully to harvest deer ethically.
As I've mentioned several times I've had this debate with others who just never took any deer with any .22CF and think it's unethical. I even had this debate with a well known gun writer who did an article stating that .22CF should be banned in every state for deer! Like many others he'd never used one, yet had the audacity to promote banning it. At the time I mentioned our troops being armed with 5.56 ammo weapons, and did he think they were armed to wound the enemy, or kill the enemy. I also told him of many deer I had taken with one shot sing my .22-250, and asked him if he'd ever had to take a 2nd shot with any of his preferred cartridges?
A .22FC like the .223 or .22-250 is devastating to deer sized game. It doesn't need to be head or neck shots either as some say. A properly placed shoulder shot works great, and does enough damage to bring down deer as well as any larger cartridges do.

Commonly the 1:9" or 1:7" twist rate is used in .223, and the 1:7" is for heavier bullets. A 55 grain spire point is devastating on deer and never passes through on any I shot. It blows up inside the cavity taking out lungs and heart, and leaving bird shot like patterns on the off side ribcage.
Oddly enough the 1:14" twist was the norm for the .22-250 from it's early days as a wildcat to after WWII. Later when Remington claimed the cartridge it started out slow at 1:14" twist, but I think my fairly new 700VSF is a 1:11" twist; still much slower than most .223 twist rates.

[buckeyeshooter1]

If a 22 caliber is legal in your state and you want to use it, go ahead. In my case, I generally use a .308 winchester with 165's, a .35 Remington with 200's or a .50 Alaskan with 300 grain Barnes originals.
My thinking is a deer is the weight of a man (or more) and I want a humane killing cartridge. That means .308 diameter or larger for me I know you can head shoot a deer with a .223 and drop it instantly, but I like point of shoulder or lung shots myself. I don't think a .223 is up to that every time.

[Scott Tschirhart]

An interesting take on the subject.

https://youtu.be/5Ao1kdN7F4s?si=0MDyFG1mCg8i3k6-

[JimT]

That old boy in the wheelchair has experience, which definitely outweighs opinion.

[Lastmohecken]

I guess my experience is limited with the .223, when it comes to killing deer, but I have not been too happy with it, using it on coyotes. Maybe I wasn't using a good bullet, but I was using softpoints. I have killed a lot of armadillos with it. And it works good on them. I have just never had the confidence to use it on deer. But I have no doubt that it's very effective with the right bullets, and pinpoint bullet placement on standing broadside deer. But I remember helping track a deer one night in the Texas hill country that was shot with a .243 and i wasn't impressed much by it either. The guy made a good shot, and to be honest the deer really didn't go that far, but was a hard find, anyway, because there was very little in the way of a blood trail, and after examining the deer, I just wasn't impressed with the size of the entrance hole or the exit hole. I think the main advantage of the .223 and like calibers is the very low recoil making them easy to shoot and hit with.

[Scott Tschirhart]

That old boy in the wheelchair has experience, which definitely outweighs opinion.

I’m not really trying to change anyone’s mind. I’m happy to hear different opinions and perspectives.

I’ll never kill that many deer and I’ve probably killed 6-7 with a .223.

[piller]

Not my first choice, but a good 68 to 72 grain bullet that is made for game, a secant ogive, will punch in pretty well. The tangent ogive, almost straight cone to the tip, will tumble shortly after penetration unless it mushrooms. Heavier bullets in larger calibers may behave differently.
Again, 223 is not my first choice, but it can work if one pays attention to the bullet type and weight.

[Griff]

Although I've never killed a deer with anything less than a 7mm, mostly with my .30-30s, I think that with proper shot placement, distance, bullet construction, very doable. The 5.56's certainly killed its share of our nation's enemies for well over 50 years. And not all those shots were optimal.

[6pt-sika]

First deer I ever witnessed being killed was done in with a Remington 722 chambered in 222 REM this was in 1970 . My grandfather poppers very wide and heavy 6 point in the temple and as you would expect DRT . I still have the rifle and the rack the deer was 23” wide . My grandfather was using handloads and if memory’s correct it was a 45 grain bullet . I also had a friend in the Poconos that’s no longer with us that sometimes carried a Remington 600 in 222 deer hunting , he shot plain or Remington 50 grain factory and I know of atleast two 10 point big bodied bucks he shot behind the shoulder with that gun and both made it no more than thirty yards after the shot . My gunsmith buddy used a CZ527 HB in 223 to kill several deer during damage control however he was using a Nosler 60 grain BT handload and it worked very well . I always wanted to kill one with a Marlin 336SC in 219 Zipper and I’d worked up a load using the Nosler 60 grain Partition only downside it turned the gun into a two shot rifle , one in the pipe and a second in the mag tube . Sad to say I never killed a deer with either Zipper I had before I liquidated them both .

[Scott Tschirhart]

I was pretty happy with the 60 gr Hornady bullet I used this year. But I had a stationary shot at (about) 140 yards. He didn’t go far and the blood trail was easy to see.

I readily admit that a 150 gr CoreLoct from my .308 would have been more sure but the deer would likely be just as dead.