Lever gun for defense

[Pathfinder]

An AR15 platform can deliver on average 800 rounds per minute. That's 13.333 rounds per second.

13.33333333333 rounds per second = 1 round every 0.075 seconds.

Obviously the user becomes the variable here but given the factual information about the weapon's (AR15) capability and an average skilled user it is foolish to suggest that:

These weapons (AR's) "NEVER" beat the lever-actions in competition.

You would be hard pressed to prove that the human to lever interface can cycle as fast as the AR.

This is also not to suggest that the lever action isn't an excellent home defense weapon either. Especially when they don't make an AR in 44mag (wouldn't that be cool).

Here is my preferred home defense equation for you math wizards:

RHD= SG+D+CM

Translation
Reliable Home Defense = Shotgun + Dog + Correct Mindset

My ole Gramma used to say: "Never say Never, it'll make you the fool and once a fool good luck proving otherwise."

[Lastmohecken]

There have been Matches in the Country, Cowboy's Vr's Cops.

An AR15 or SKS, AK47 has never won a race for 10 rounds against a Lever Gun, Never. By the time you get the gun sholdered and Safety off, 10 rounds will be on the target.

Same with a SAA against a 1911 for 5 shots, the 1911 looses.

If you want to get beat bad, go and try.

I will take my 44 cal 92 any day, for 0-100 yard. And with Iron sights.

OK! This brings back memories, where I once emptied a Ruger single six, by fanning it, against a man shooting a 1911 on a bet, but no accuracy requirements were involved, and he had 8 rounds vs my six. I won. But it was close, and I was shooting a 22 cal. Load that peacemaker with real full power ammo and it ain't going to happen, unless the guy shooting the 45 auto does't know what he is doing.

Regarding the AR against a leveraction, maybe those squid cowboy loads help, but I have shot levers for over 30yrs and they are fast, but if you think you will get ten rounds off before I can get an Ar into action you are badly mistaken. You need to get out more often.

[Lastmohecken]

Regarding the .357 leveraction, I think one would make a good defense rifle, but they do have one disavantage vs. a 44mag, if one has to reload the mag. I have rather small hands, compaired to lots of men, and even I have trouble pushing .357 rounds past the loading gate, on my .357, where the bigger 44 loads much eaiser.

In reality, I doubt one would need to reload, anyway, but I thought it deserved mentioning.

[Gryphon Black]

Yeah, that's one bit I hadn't thought of. I don't have wide fingertips, so haven't had a problem. If you do, the .44 is likely a better bet, though a bit overpowered for the lighter applications.
Still, if defense is the main thing, and .44 feeds easier for you than .357, that's an easy call. And the .44 round is also common and easy to find.

[Rifleman336]

Hi, everyone new to the board I was a lurker for years now I'm on and putting in my .02 FWIW. I 'd say for home defense if one wise on selecting the bullets for your caliber. For .37 Magnum I'd recommend any 110 or 125gr THAT SHATTERS in the human body on Impact. Don't get the newer HP's like Winchesters platnum tip or CCI Gold Dot. Use the older designs like Federal Classic. For .30-30 use Reminton 55gr accelerators, Federals 125gr or Winchesters 150gr HP these for such a powerful round shatter! As long as you hit your target and don't miss you should be ok.

ALEX

[Comal Forge]

Ed McGivern could fire faster with a double action revolver than a .45 auto but the practical difference was neglible. He was also highly gifted and trained regularly to perform these feats. The average person can fire more quickly and accurately with a good semi-auto platform.

If one really wanted to know, it would be relatively easy to determine the speed that an AR (or any other auto) fires, cycles and reloads by timing it. A lever is limited only by the stroke and how quickly the shooter can cycle it so that could also be timed. In any case, I suspect that the military would be using levers if they were vastly superior to what is actually being used in daily combat.

[Griff]

I was doin' a search for another topic and found this thread which I'd neglected to follow; and, find I have a little to add:

A M16 can fire 800 rnds per minute, an AR-15 CAN NOT. Lefty Dude is correct. When I practiced a lot and shot a lot more than I do now, I often won any speed plates stage with only 6 shots against all comers, and in the world of CAS (cowboy action shooting), I was pretty slow.

Do a little visiting: CAS World Records

[MountainSmith]

Thanks for all the replies. I ended up with a Marlin 1894 in .44 magnum. I think it was made in the 1970's. It is in good shape, with some nice walnut and no safety of any kind. The barrel is 20 inches long. I really like the gun, and it seems very accurate. I also have the advantage of having a friend who likes to reload. He has been making me some homegrown loads for this gun. My buddies all have EBR's, and I have nothing against them, but I am a cowboy at heart, I guess. I feel real comfortable with lever guns, and single and double action handguns. They are what I grew up with. With this .44 I am now thinking about a new Vaquero in .44 for a companion gun!

[Saltcreek]

good luck at sorting it all out in court, too.

If your State has the Castle Doctrine in place .. and If the situation is a justifiable use of force .. there will be no court.

Ohio Just passed the Casle Doctrine and it takes effect Sept 8, 2008. Includes provisions that prohibit a zombie or thier family from suing if the act was a crime or "could have been a crime" even if not charged. Ohio also cleaned up various gun laws and made CCW easier. It is now easier to carry a rifle in the passenger area of the vehicle without a case as long as it is not loaded. It does prohibit magazines or speedloaders pre-charged for a rifle. This makes an "evil black rifle" less useful and a leverun more practicle. With a "box-o-rocks" I can throw one in the chamber while I top off the mag tube, faster that I can load a EBR magazine. A stainless steel Puma seems an ideal "leave it in the car" gun.

[El Chivo]

We haven't talked much about sights in this thread, just about rate of fire.

I just got my first scope and, while I'm still learning to work with it, I can tell it's faster to pick up the target than with iron sights, receiver or tang. This is a Weaver 1-3x.

My reason for choosing this scope was the 1x capability. When hunting, the idea is to leave it on 1x when moving, in case I am jumped. Then rack it up to 2 or 3x when actually hunting. I like 1.5x the best.

At any rate, it is very fast to pick up an in-room target, about 1 second, maybe less. You wouldn't need a second shot. Might help with IFF, too. You don't want to shoot a neighbor kid looking for his dog.

[JRR]

The number one concern when in a battle is achieving adequate cover. Usually it results in a prone position. This is the single biggest flaw using a lever gun. Try rapid levering when on your belly and elbows. You must angle the gun and lose your sight picture. Very slow!

[Paladin]

Think I have a plan. I live in the country, and don't reload. Think I will go with a .30.30, then plan on finding a matching .357 down the road. Thanks for all the input. BTW, I defended the lever action to a friend who insisted I needed an AR,. AK, SKS, HK, or some other alphabet soup gun. Appreciate all the input. It has really helped, and probably saved me money and heartache.

The lever in 30-30 will work well, the first time I saw one used on a subject who broke into a old mans home he put a 150 Gr SP into the bad guy's chest and it stopped just under the skin in his back. I would recomend a light mount like the one made by Wild West Guns (http://www.wildwestguns.com/Accessories ... ories.html) it will make you as well armed as any of my team mates for what you are doing.

[Rexster]

The number one concern when in a battle is achieving adequate cover. Usually it results in a prone position. This is the single biggest flaw using a lever gun. Try rapid levering when on your belly and elbows. You must angle the gun and lose your sight picture. Very slow!

Maybe it is my long arms, and very flexible wrists, but I am able to work a lever well enough from prone, without tilting the weapon. It is pump guns that work against me in prone, once again my long arms being a likely factor; I must tilt my whole upper body to work a pump gun while prone. OTOH, my long arms are propping me up a bit higher than a guy with shorter arms! Of course, some autoloaders, without shoot-all-week magazines, allow a lower prone, where the forearm rests on the back of the hand or fist, which is palm-down on the ground, but I have a devil of a time getting a good sight picture when that low, at least on level ground.

[HATCHETTJACK]

best levergun for home defence is my marlin 1895 45-70 xlr, topped with a 3-9 nikon prostaff.. loaded with buffalo bore 430 gr gas checked hardcast at 1900 fps..come by uninvited and find out

[donw]

just yesterday i watched two cowboy shooters in a classic argued about contest; the 1911 vs SAA in 'speed' shooting on the NRA show. both loaded only 6 rounds.

there was a very slight edge to the 1911...but...who would quibble with 1500 grains of hot lead being dispensed? (incidently, that's the name of the current fast draw champ, and one of the contestants in this particular 'shoot out', in cowboy action... "Lead dispenser"... he uses ruger 'viquero' SA's)

jerry miculek...empties his nine shot s&w in less than two seconds, ACCURATELY...but is admittedly an exceptional champion who trains and shoots continually.

full auto fire is faster than SEMI-auto from any platform...i found that out firing the 1919 browning MG vs the m1/m14

the NUMBER of rounds delivered is not as important as the number of rounds that hit the intended target in the CORRECT place in order to stop or reduce the threat to non-threat status.

and, on the other hand, in this day of litigation, one also must be careful. imagine what an anti-gun prosecutor will say if a bad guy has a bullet in each lung, heart and between the eyes? probably something to the effect of; "you premeditated this murder! you shot much too accurately to have been under duress."

sighhhh...

MHO...

[stretch]

MountainSmith - I think you did just fine with the 44. I happen to love the 41 Mag,
and there's a lot to be said for the 357, but in the hands of someone who knows
what they're about, a 44 Mag levergun is NOT to be trifled with. Practice getting
your first round on target as fast as YOU can ACCURATELY, and I think maybe
you'll do just fine, should you ever need to. For self-defense, I'm of the opinion
that a caliber that makes a big hole is preferable to a smaller caliber with hi-tech
ammo. A lead semi-wadcutter in 44 is still .429" whether it expands or not.
Good Luck, and let us know how your practice goes.

[pharmseller]

Folks talk a lot about speed. "I can get 10 rounds down range before you can lever your first," etc. I've never been in a gunfight and God willing I never will. I must say, however, that IMO it's all about hits. Hits, hits, hits. Again, I speak without experience but I gotta believe that it really doesn't matter the caliber or platform, as long as you have a round that can deliver penetration, you're gonna have a dead BG.
I carry a .22 as my "warm weather" pocket pistol. Granted, I shoot quite a bit, but I tell you, three or four rounds in the chest and a few towards the forehead and the threat is over.
The thread about the apartment guy killing the two masked BGs, he had a .40 cal I think, and one BG left the apartment after being shot twice at close range and made it 40 feet. From what I've read/heard there is no DRT handgun caliber. So I carry a .22 because I know I'll have it, and I have a Browning 92 in .357 in the house for the stray BG.
Hits, hits, hits.

Q

[Old Ironsights]

Maybe some gunsmith will make a levergun modification consisting of a detachable tubular magazine one can keep loaded. (Hint to Nate?)

Dave Clay's takedown conversion allows the mag to be dismounted (along with the barrel) while still loaded. ...

That's always been my greatest annoyance with the take downs. I love takedowns, but I hate having to unload them first. I would MUCH rather be able to keep my .357 taken down in the car then snap it together when needed and have it ready to go without needing to top feed to begin with. Just seems so much more descreet and useful.

[handirifle]

He's already chosen a lever, never a bad idea, maybe not THE fastest, but that doesn't matter a whole lot. Defending ones home, would most likely NOT be a firefight.

MY choice would have been, and was (cause I just bought one) a Ruger mini 14. I know they haven't had the best rep for accuracy, in the past, but Ruger is correcting that. Either way, for home defense it has always been accurate enough for that.

Plus the recoil of the 223 round has a much faster return to target rate than the 44 mag. Not cuttin your choice, just pointing out pros and cons.

As for sights, I say take a lesson from those that use them in close and fast, the military and LE folks. Get a red dot sight, or ghost sight. You'll be amazed how accurate they are clear out past 100yds, and faster than open sights of any kind. Besides in a defense situation, you're not aiming at a 1" circle, you're aiming at a chest or head.

Some of the newer models, boast battery life of about 55,000 hrs. Basically change batteries everytime you vote for president. Turn it on and leave it on.

The min 14 I bought is the target model. Heavy barrel and the harmonic stabilizer. A bit cumbersome the next one will be a defense weapon, pure and simple.

By the way, even in CA I have a centerfire, semi auto, with 10 rnd DETACHABLE mag. Guns empty?, drop one out and load in another.

[Arminius]

Pistol calibers are the way to go. Much more rounds ( even, if you don´t load to full capacity ) and the 30-30 is unnecessary powerful and penetrates too much ... ( the .44 Maggie should and could be loaded down for home defense because of blast issues ).

But why 16"?

I love my Trapper ( in .30-30, regrettably ) and my next LA will be a 16" ( in .44-40, if possible ).

But the 20" is just as handy and will give you more rounds and better pointability, IMO:

Hermann

[45Jack]

.357 Magnum or .45 Colt in one of Steve's slicked up 16" Rossis.

http://www.stevesgunz.com

+1!

Welcome aboard. A 16" 1892-model lever in .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, or .45 Colt will do the trick! I have a Puma '92 (Rossi) in .45 Colt with one of Steve Young's ("Nate Kiowa Jones" action jobs, and it is as slick as whale snot in an ice flow!

+2 It will do you just fine.

+3
I Have a NKJ 92 in .45 Colt - 24" octagon and a .357 in 16".
Would love a .45 Colt in 16" now!
If you don't reload, I think a .357 lever gun is about the best choice going for the all around one gun guy. I think the Marlins are an 18" barrel, but any 16" - 20" would be a good protection gun. The 24" octagon is a bit much to swing around.
Welcome aboard.
Jack

[99savage308]

re:
Lever gun for defense,

A Marlin 336 in 30-30.

The one gun all of us can use,very well, is an M1 carbine. 30 rnd mag and two 15 round mags on the butt stock pouch.
.

[donw]

99savage308...

the good ole M1 carbine, when it can be found here in california, is usually approaching the $1000.00 price. i have memories of the M1 carbine in a faraway place.

i opted for the ruger 9mm P9 carbine...as all know, here in kaliphornia, we are limited to 10 rounds in a detachable mag...and...the P9 and the P9 series pistols will interchange magazines...they also make the carbine in .40. (i don't know how available the p series ruger carbine are anymore, though. they were made as 'companion' to service 9mm and .40 cal pistols and 'squad car' carbines for LEO primarily.)

any of the three a good choice IMO.

[MountainSmith]

Where is the lever on that P9? Just kidding. I like the lever gun for a lot of reasons, mostly because I'm a cowboy wannabe. If I went away from that I might go to a Beretta Storm or an AR. I've never had any experience with the Ruger or the Marlin camp guns, although I did like the mini 14 I had at one time.

[Arminius]

As for Caliber:

the trajectory of the 9 mm over 50 m/yds is ridiculous!

( we won´t talk about the .45´s! )

The .357 is a whole other animal ... VERY recommended!

If you live in the great outdoors, get a .44 ( Magnum )!

If your main concern is two legged, with an occasional snake to kill, or a rabbit for dinner, or a smaller deer - get the .357!

IF you can get a good combo carbine and pistol or Sixgun in 10 mm, DO SO - if not, consider the .357 the best compromise!

Hermann

[Wrangler John]

Just a thought, and probably not worth a salty chocolate éclair, but what about a 9410?

I would really be worried about shooting a varmint with a .44 Magnum or even a .45 Colt in my home, because there's a good chance that that slug is going to pay a visit my neighbor's next door or across the street. But a 410 shotgun with some buck or shot will most likely curb the assailant's deportment. It's a lever action with a big muzzle, and has to have a "pucker" factor for the intruder viewing the wrong end. I'm of course referring to defense inside the confines of a house or surburban lot.

Okay, it's just an idea to mull over.

[pharmseller]

Just a thought, and probably not worth a salty chocolate éclair, but what about a 9410?

I would really be worried about shooting a varmint with a .44 Magnum or even a .45 Colt in my home, because there's a good chance that that slug is going to pay a visit my neighbor's next door or across the street. But a 410 shotgun with some buck or shot will most likely curb the assailant's deportment. It's a lever action with a big muzzle, and has to have a "pucker" factor for the intruder viewing the wrong end. I'm of course referring to defense inside the confines of a house or surburban lot.

Okay, it's just an idea to mull over.

I like the idea of limiting overpenetration. That's one of the reasons I would not choose a mini-14 or any .223. Those bullets can go a long way.
As for pucker factor, if you're on the wrong end of ANY tube I gotta believe the pucker string is gonna be pulled pretty tight.
I'm a fan of my Browning 92 in .357 or "alley sweeper" cutoff 11-48.

Q

[Saltcreek]

Just a thought, and probably not worth a salty chocolate éclair, but what about a 9410?

I would really be worried about shooting a varmint with a .44 Magnum or even a .45 Colt in my home, because there's a good chance that that slug is going to pay a visit my neighbor's next door or across the street. But a 410 shotgun with some buck or shot will most likely curb the assailant's deportment. It's a lever action with a big muzzle, and has to have a "pucker" factor for the intruder viewing the wrong end. I'm of course referring to defense inside the confines of a house or surburban lot.

Okay, it's just an idea to mull over.

I would not risk my life to a 410 ga, a pistol would be more effective. I have a 410 for the garden, and put my life behind a handgun on the job for a couple decades. Pucker factor is not all it's cracked up to be. You would be surprised how many punks believe the victim with gun won't shoot. I have seen it first hand. Many home invaders are hopped up on drugs and their nervous systems would laugh at the pitiful "slugs" or 3 buckshot of a 410. If neighbors are that close, a rifle should never be used, only handguns (with practice) and large bore shotguns with buckshot. If it won't put down a whitetail deer, I would not use it on a human with my life at stake. Read the American Rifleman front section every month for the list of scum who don't care and have no pucker factor. At home, my levergun of choice is a 1971 made Winchester model 94. I'm in the country and know where my neighbors and backstops are.