Winchester Pre-War Carbines SRC , Eastern Carbines , 19"? , Shotgun Butt

[348win]

Looking to educate myself on Pre-War Carbines Model 94's (and MAYBE 92's, do the features carry over in both models?)

Not sure on terminology.

Think I'd be looking for a 18", or 19" gun w NO Saddle Ring, so this is an "Eastern Carbine" ?

Was thinking Shotgun Butt, not sure how common that is......
Thoughts there are rounded comb instead of square top where your cheek goes.....

Ladder sight was factory until 1932 I believe I read?

I am looking at M94's in 30-30 primarily, might consider a 32ws if that gets me into one for a substantial amount of coin less.

[348win]

Ok I find

between 1928-1932 approx 50% of guns had NO saddle ring,

then the guns came from 1932-1942 w NO ring and special order option

*** So I suppose I'm looking to educate myself on 1932-1942 guns as a NO RING CARBINE is standard ***

[348win]

How bout the barrel band years

[OldWin]

There's a lot of "Eastern Carbines" here. Some opinions vary, but to me an EC is a 20" carbine barrel with a 2/3 magazine, no ring, and the Townsend Whelen style shotgun butt with the serated steel buttplate. I have seen examples with a hard rubber buttplate also.
Some people will allow variances in the overall features, but there are a lot of them up here and they seem to be a pretty standard configuration. They were the same in both 94 and 92 examples, but the 92s are quite scarce. I have one such in 38-40.
I only have one 94 EC now (my dad's first rifle) in 30-30, but I've owned several examples over the years, even one in 38-55 (very scarce).

[Pat C]

The transition started with the Whelen fluted comb shotgun stocks. Both 94 and 92. They still had post front sight and sometimes saddlerings.

Eastern carbines lot of times still had SRC buttplate which was seen into mid to late 30's .

The final prewar carbine had the serrated model 55 steel shotgun buttplate. No saddlering. These were seen up into the WW2 era.

Early 1932 or so the Ramp front sight became common on both 1892 and 1894

[348win]

So are there FULL MAG tubes AND SHOTGUN BUTT???

With
"block and pin style carbine sight behind the band"

[Pat C]

Yes shotgun butt with post type could be ordered with or without the widows peak.

[JimT]

At the CSA I got to play with this old Winchester. A Model 1894 made in 1895.

IMG_20250412_121033.jpg

[348win]

Yes shotgun butt with post type could be ordered with or without the widows peak.

What years would cover this

[Pat C]

At the CSA I got to play with this old Winchester. A Model 1894 made in 1895.
IMG_20250412_121033.jpg

Jim , That rifle has a flat band barrel assembly . Rebarreled

[Pat C]

Yes shotgun butt with post type could be ordered with or without the widows peak.

What years would cover this

Pre 1930 would be best case for special order carbines.

[348win]

cool

Thank you kindly

[JimT]

At the CSA I got to play with this old Winchester. A Model 1894 made in 1895.
IMG_20250412_121033.jpg

Jim , That rifle has a flat band barrel assembly . Rebarreled

Yes. We knew that because it's a .30-30!

[Pat C]

30 WCF came out in 1895

[Pat C]

Here is an example of old style carbine with newer Colonel Whelen fluted comb with small shotgun butt.

https://shop.joesalter.com/Special-Orde ... Built-1920

[348win]

Ya that's what I'm talking bout

Thanks

[Malamute]

If you can lay hands on a copy of The Winchester Book by Madis it would answer many of your questions.

Winchester would make almost anything on special order, some special order features later became standard, such as the basic shotgun butt, though not as tall and full as the earlier versions.

Is there a particular style or type you like best? Details that make or break your interest?

Ive had a several dozen or more 94s of various vintages, and seen and handled many dozens to hundreds more at the big Winchester show in Cody and elsewhere over the years. I developed certain ideas of things I liked, they were either more expensive or harder to find, such as the early type (so-called SRC) front sights, and most common early carbine features but dislike the sling rings (so-called saddle rings). I ended up using a pre-64 carbine and had an early type carbine front sight made and installed, moved the front band to correct location, used a long wood fore end, installed a Lyman No 56 receiver sight (a factory option from sometime in the late teens or 20s into the 50s I believe, sling studs, and just use it a lot without worry. I just made what i wanted from something close enough and not overly valuable. Posterity can decide if it was a crime against humanity to alter a gun, I simply dont care at this point, I have what I like, the survivors can argue about it after Im gone. Clean late pre-64 carbines were not particularly expensive when i bought mine, I think I paid $175 for it in the early 80s.

I also came into a thoroughly thrashed 1927 carbine, replaced some damaged parts, put a less destroyed beat up stock on it, cleaned it for the first time in decades of intense hard use, and been using it a lot since the mid 80s. At one point I came into a correctly marked spare barrel that was damaged at the muzzle, had it cut to 16 1/2" and love it for a truck and dog walking gun. This gun had a Lymaan No 56 sight already on it from some time in its distant past, the first one id seen, and was the reason I ended up with many more on various guns over time. The best looking of the late type receiver sights, not counting the long ones, the number of which i forget ( No 21?)

Back to one of your comments, the standard carbines are 20". Shorter barrels are uncommon and special order I believe, and much higher priced if factory. Rifles were 26" as standard length in the 94, with various lengths available in more limited amounts, primarily as special order.

True shotgun butts can be had from stock makers, its likely going to cost far less to put one on a gun than to find a gun that came with it from the factory. If money or time is no object, thats fine, but I, as mentioned, I finally decided to just build what I want. My plate gun may actually get done this year. I'll post some pics if it does. It will be 22" octagon barrel (cut from 26" buffalo bill over run parts), 1964 receiver, extra-high grade wood (more factory special over run parts), semi-crescent butt, checkered, not sure about sights yet, possibly ladder barrel sight, possibly tang sight, and possibly side mount scope. Its going to be a shooter for the 600 and further plates we have nearby, and probably use pointy 150 gr bullets on the longer shots.

94 and grouse.jpg

IMG_1152.jpg

IMG_1154.jpg

[348win]

My thoughts exactly on modifying a gun to ones liking

Fire up the mill or lathe, and make it what you want.
Bet other people would want one too.....

[OldWin]

Here are a couple examples of these pre-war carbines lacking saddle rings.
In the first picture is a 92 and a 94. These are what we always called "Eastern Carbines" up here. These were produced when a saddle ring was standard on carbines, so they were ordered with a 2/3 magazine, the TW shotgun butt with either serrated steel or hard rubber buttplate, and no ring. Ignore the receiver sight on the 94, my dad had it drilled when he was 16.
In the second picture are a couple examples of later pre-war carbines. Both are full magazine, the 30-30 has the TW shotgun butt, and the 32WS has the early carbine butt. For ME at least, these aren't Eastern Carbines. One could argue this if at the time of production a carbine was fitted with a ring as standard.
These terms sometimes vary between Winchesters terminology, collectors terminology, and local terminology. An example of this is 20" model 64s and 71s. They are commonly called carbines, while having no features of a carbine present. Winchester didn't use barrel length to distinguish between rifle and carbine. They used features, such as forend style. Not saying anything is right or wrong, its just how it is. No matter how you slice it, these were some of the best Winchester carbines ever produced. I find the 2/3 magazine examples slightly more accurate on average. I also find the TW shotgun butt the cleanest and most positive to shoulder. Many, many local woodsmen carried these carbines back in the day.
I think it's a case of where someone special ordered one, and it proved to be very good. Word spread, and the dealer where it was purchased ordered a bunch in this same configuration to have in stock. That's why you will find pockets of non-standard guns, that while rare, are popular in a certain area.

[JimT]

30 WCF came out in 1895

The barrel has the early style of marking is what he told me. He figures it was a .32 Special and someone had it rebarreled at Winchester. He's following up to see if he can get papers on it.

[348win]

Amen to TW Shotgun Butt

Fast and Lethal

[348win]

Oldwin

I'm with you on the 2/3 mags, for handiness

I got to wonder how much bulkier a M64 feels, LESS HANDY if you will, than a 94 straight stock like you've pictured

You are very "in touch" w the handling of these rifles and how a little wood can make a lot of weight. And the 64 has a lot more in the rear stock for sure.

I tend to think the 64 in 20" is still gonna feel like a full size gun
Where a 94 in 16", 18" or 20" is going to feel like a SMALL gun

I think an 18" M64 would be an interesting experiment as well.....but I think too much wood out bad to make a 16" it will be out of balance and akward.

The early full tube guns are just plain old iconic Americana, and a couple more shots is useful.

[OldWin]

Yes, absolutely. A 94 EC is noticeably lighter and nimble when compared to a 20" 64. The 64 would probably be steadier offhand for longer ranges, but the way I usually hunt with these guns, the 94 is plenty good, and shoulders very quick.

[Pat C]

One could base an entire collection around all the variations of the 1894. Bob Renneberg's book is about the best source for the 1894

[348win]

Proving difficult to find a GOOD TIGHT 100 year old rifle.......

Old news right

Most I see from 1930 vintage look BEAT hard

[Pat C]

Old 1894 are pretty durable and not hard to find parts to rebuild if needed.

[OldWin]

Many of my old carbines look well worn, and are, from decades of use and carry. I've seen some where the receiver looked polished from a leather gloved hand around them.
Many, however, didn't really get worn out from shooting. The actions and bores were still in excellent condition.
Of all of mine, my dad's old EC has the most wear from shooting. If you look down the bore, especially beside another one, you can see the wear. It also has the smoothest action you can imagine and runs like a champ. It will still out shoot most of my full mag carbines for accuracy.

[348win]

This place is awesome and has taught me a lot

Thank you all

[Griff]

30 WCF came out in 1895

The barrel has the early style of marking is what he told me. He figures it was a .32 Special and someone had it rebarreled at Winchester. He's following up to see if he can get papers on it.

And the 32 Special was introduced in 1897. So maybe it was a .32-40?

[Pat C]

This carbine in Rennberg's book fits your description.

[348win]

Ya
How much do you estimate a nice carbine like that's worth
No Saddle Ring

I reckon its got to be thousands?

[Pat C]

Not real common, in that configuration . The Whelen fluted comb shotgun butt carbines are more common. Buttplate is shorter and has no spur. These are often encountered with half mags and Eastern style no ring. Post WW1 - 1930 ish.

[JimT]

@ Pat C ... you have obviously studied the Winchester line ... and others I am sure. I never have and it's nice to have someone with your understanding of them around. I for one appreciate your knowledge and help.

[Pat C]

Jim, The 1892 and 1894 have been my main interest and where I've spent most of my time . Great rifles/carbines .

Both share a lot of same parts like sights, stocks , bands, buttplates.

Glad to share anything I've learned about them .

[Pat C]

Here is a nice prewar 1937 carbine with model 55 steel shotgun but no saddlering . One of the last of the carbonate blue era guns.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1100786814