348 Winchester for Big Bears

[348win]

I gotta wonder, how many men toted their 348win with utmost confidence against Big Bears of the North and Alaska

I take mine to Maine where the state record black bear was 699lbs.....I know I know black bears aren't "big bears" but 700lbs is big enough.

I really like my 348 Carbine and can't handle any more recoil than a 220gr @ 2300fps. In fact its loaded right to my max threshold and I weight 150lbs. If I load any faster fps I have problems with lever unlocking under recoil.

personally don't think I can handle a 45-70 or similar recoil, and make hits.

Its the hits that count, we know, dont carry anything bigger than what you can make hits with.

So my question is do you think, or know, that men went out into Brown Bear, Grizzly country with 348's or did they not approve of it for that application. Alaska? Idaho? Montana?

My rifle shoots through everything, I never recovered a bullet. Haven't killed much with it, but things it hits get big exit holes and lots of damage.

It gives me what I need in a trusty companion.

[348win]

If you are new to big bore levers, or medium (348)

note the 348 is a handloaders caliber as ammo is scarce in certain regions, and very expensive

45-70 is THE over the counter "available everywhere" ammunition industry standard in big lever actions.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

It's funny that in the early 50's, Harold Johnson could get plenty of 348 but you couldn't find 45-70 (or 90) so he blew 348 out into his 45 cal wildcat for big bears. Now it's the other way around ... 45-70 is everywhere.

[348win]

There must have been a long shortage (still is) of available 348 ammo......

I read citing where shops back in the day had barrels (like a whiskey barrel, not a rifle barrel) full of M71's on the extra cheap "nobody wanted". Only reason I see that would be is no ammo to be found.

[OldWin]

Many big bears were faced with much less than a .348. Having both, I don't know as the 45-70 has any more recoil than the .348. At least comparing average loads in both chamberings.
My coworker is a bear guide here. He said he sees a lot of black bear lost to 45-70. He said they show up and think it's some kind of magic and they can just point and shoot.
Shot placement is king. On any animal, with any cartridge.

[Eddie Southgate]

I've got both and couldn't say one kicks any worse than the other. Sure would like to find one of those barrels of model 71's they are trying to give away . I looked for mine for over fifty years before I found one that was actually for sale, have yet to see one in a gun store of any kind.

[JimT]

Cabela's has 10 of them for sale.

https://www.cabelas.com/l/used-guns

Use the search feature listed under "Filter and Sort" ... choose Winchester ... and then 348 ...

This one is an early long tang Deluxe Model ... https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/101668173 Not a bad price for today's dollar.

[Gunstore Commando]

There must have been a long shortage (still is) of available 348 ammo......

I read citing where shops back in the day had barrels (like a whiskey barrel, not a rifle barrel) full of M71's on the extra cheap "nobody wanted". Only reason I see that would be is no ammo to be found.

When I was growing up, a while back now, one of my buddies had inherited his deceased father's M71. We were just dumb kids and there wasn't the kind of access to information that we have today. We just thought it was some old gun that was hard to find ammo for.

Hope for his sake he kept it.

[Grizz]

on the topic, the bear doesn't know what caliber we are shooting. a 220Gr from the 348 has the same ballistics as a 220Gr from my 338 win mag. the issues are the same for any firearm, enough velocity to pass thru, enough momentum to pass thru the bones and keep going, and a bullet that doesn't expand and deploy air brakes. this is controversial, but i like dialog, all the "bullet failures" that i've read about revolve around bullets disintegrating, or expanding to much too soon, etc.

i talked to a guide in Alaska about his 500ish Gr 45/70 load. he had a client that wounded brown bear [brown bears matter] which took off and was circling back to kill the hunter. the guide was broadside to the animal and put a bullet thru the pelvis disconnecting both legs, to anchor the animal. the guide said the holes in the bone looked like they were punched thru, not shattered. I've seen that on deer bone too. clean round hole.

this defined my concept of a bear gun, a bear load, and a bear result. this in no way affects the 348, but i would investigate the heaviest bullet that the gun will stabilize, and moderate velocity gauged by the momentum figure, and shoot hard cast or other solids that are tested to not self-destruct.

i'm aware of all the technology designed to expand a bullet so it can stop in the off side. Dad taught me that we don't hunt food with hollow point bullets, we just don't. so i don't

i'm also aware that there are lots of people around here who have taken many more tons of game than i have, that use expanding bullets to good effect, etc. etc. however, i was always wary of the rangers knocking on my door to inform my wife that i'm not coming home.

and finally, for now, none of the bears i saw, nor didn't see, tested me. †

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[wvfarrier]

We used to have a place on the Kenai. All I ever carried was a Marlin in 45 colt loaded real close to 454 casull power. I actually used 454 brass trimmed down to fit. I loaded them with a 300 grain xtp. I never doubted how effective they would be as they were more powerful than the original 45-70 buffalo load.

[wvfarrier]

Now, if we still lived there, I would probably carry the same load or my BLR in 308.

[wvfarrier]

Now, if we still lived there, I would probably carry the same load or my BLR in 308.

[Grizz]

We used to have a place on the Kenai. All I ever carried was a Marlin in 45 colt loaded real close to 454 casull power. I actually used 454 brass trimmed down to fit. I loaded them with a 300 grain xtp. I never doubted how effective they would be as they were more powerful than the original 45-70 buffalo load.

this sounds practical and dependable. good choice.

[Grizz]

Now, if we still lived there, I would probably carry the same load or my BLR in 308.

i doubt it will happen, but if i went back i would probably take the 50 beo pistol. shorter than the rifles with the same Bison category results.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

This looks bear eligible in the M71 ...

MBW-348_LBT_250GR._LFN-GC.jpg

The Montana Bullet Works 348, LBT, 235gr, LFN-GC with a 22 BHN.

Or a 250 grain Barnes Original ... which have been in stock recently. Not sure I'd trust a factory SilverTip. Not that it wouldn't, I'm just more comfortable with a heavy for penetration in this case. As @Grizz noted in his post.

[1972RedNeck]

I gotta wonder, how many men toted their 348win with utmost confidence against Big Bears of the North and Alaska

I take mine to Maine where the state record black bear was 699lbs.....I know I know black bears aren't "big bears" but 700lbs is big enough.

I really like my 348 Carbine and can't handle any more recoil than a 220gr @ 2300fps. In fact its loaded right to my max threshold and I weight 150lbs. If I load any faster fps I have problems with lever unlocking under recoil.

personally don't think I can handle a 45-70 or similar recoil, and make hits.

Its the hits that count, we know, dont carry anything bigger than what you can make hits with.

So my question is do you think, or know, that men went out into Brown Bear, Grizzly country with 348's or did they not approve of it for that application. Alaska? Idaho? Montana?

My rifle shoots through everything, I never recovered a bullet. Haven't killed much with it, but things it hits get big exit holes and lots of damage.

It gives me what I need in a trusty companion.

In my limited experience, larger diameter bullets of heavier grain weights work better.

348 is decent. I would not feel under gunned in the lower 48 at all.

Further north, I would take a 45-70 over a 348, even if loaded to the same recoil level.

And for me, the larger the diameter bullet, the less knife like the recoil is. Sledge hammer recoil is tolerable for me. Knife like recoil, not so much.

[44shooter]

I don’t know but I would think it would be enough gun. It’s close to heavy bullet 30-06 specs, close to 444, 356, 358. It is not far from 338-06, my 338 RCM, 35 Whelan, 350 mag, the 9.3s and such which are considered fine. A guide might want more as he shoots when things are going badly.

[wvfarrier]

The local park rsnger when we lived there carried an AR in 338 Federal that had a 16" barrel. He said it was incredibly effective against big bears and angry moose

[Eddie Southgate]

Cabela's has 10 of them for sale.

https://www.cabelas.com/l/used-guns

Use the search feature listed under "Filter and Sort" ... choose Winchester ... and then 348 ...

This one is an early long tang Deluxe Model ... https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/101668173 Not a bad price for today's dollar.

Jim,

That 50 years was before Cabela's web site and the auctions were made possible by Al Gore Jr's having invented the internet . I saw a reasonable number at gun shows around Nashville and the surrounding 200 miles but they were in collections and only for display . They were never available in Tennessee or Alabama in a whisky barrel at any price and would not have lasted 10 minutes if they had been.

[Malamute]

Danny from Montana had used the 200 gr 348 loads on elk and moose I believe, and reported very acceptable performance. I think some others from Canada reported similar results over time.

Ive carried a 71 with Hornady 200 gr and Barnes 250 gr loads in grizzly country in the rockies, though havent killed anything with it other than grouse. I dont recall the exact load, about 3-5 grs Red Dot with a .350 round ball works well and not a lot of noise to annoy the dogs. Single loaded into the chamber with the magazine full of regular loads makes sneaking around in the thick woods in grizzly country more comforting than using a 22 or 30-30 with similar loads for grouse. Ive carried an 86 carbine in 45-70 with 53 grs 3031/400 gr Barnes Originals the most over the years, but liked having more easy range with the 348 to cover the dogs when up above treeline or other more open areas.

I didnt worry much which loads I had in the gun, though mostly the 250s as first reloads in a belt slide with 200s in the gun and a handful in a pocket was the most often used method, and a few light loads in a shirt pocket for porcupines when not grouse hunting.

All of this is more academic than practical for me since disabling injuries to shoulder, back, and hip. I cant carry or shoot the big stuff any more and cant hike very much.

I dog walk every day for the most part, either around home or in the hills, its bear country when I step out the door, though about 3-4 miles away is where they are commonly seen. The radio mentioned bears have been out for a couple weeks around the area, snakes will not be too far behind. I like to have at least a 44 or 45 pistol, and some carry-able carbine close to home, something with more power and range away from home. Its an evolving thing as to what I can carry and shoot, but at this point doubt Ill be able to shoot the bigger stuff again.

The bears around here seem to be smaller than ones farther north, 500 lbs is a fair size bear. I dont know what black bears run around here for size, for the most part if anyone says "bear" thay are talking about grizzlies unless hunting black bears. I think the blacks dont get as big because of competition from grizzlies. I believe Ive met, talked to or know of more people that have been mugged/killed by grizzlies than Ive heard of humans being mugged or accosted in the past 35 years or so. Only a few were predatory attacks where they killed and ate somebody.

[mnmarlin]

People were shooting bears of all types long before the .348 hit the scene, as another poster said the bear doesn't seem to mind what they get shot with. I'm sure the .348 would be very effective on bears. If I was going black bear hunting here in Minnesota, I'd use my .444 Marlin with the 265 Hornady flat point. I'm sure that would work in a pinch on grizzly and brown bears as well especially at close range, and if I felt a little undergunned I would take my sons 1895 in .45-70 with some Buffalo Bore or some such loads. Although I'm sure some of the really big magnums could be more effective, I don't think I could shoot them well enough due to the recoil to make use of that much power.