That worked better than expected!!

[wvfarrier]

I have been playing around with pushing 357 mag in rifles to the absolute maximum I can without blowing my gun or myself to oblivion. Today, I think I have reached the pinnacle of what can be acheived.

I am using annealed brass since these velocities are pretty high. These were fired from a 20" Henry and from 24" winchester 1892. Velocites were measured by a Labradar.

I will not give the actual charge weights so no one repeats my unwise actions. I used small magnum rifle primers.

I tried both Lil Gun and H110 but after a few tests I quit using Lil Gun as the barrel got too hot and the velocites/accyracy just werent making me happy.

The projectiles I used were Montana Bulletworks 160 grain hard cast/gas checked-flat nose with a brn of 22.

H110: (Highest velocites listed)
Charge #1- 2023fps- 5rd avg. Normal ejection, no pressure signs. All the brass measured normal
Charge #2- 2094fps- 5rd avg. Same as above
Charge #3- 2120fps- 5rd avg. Same as above
Charge #4- (I unwisely stepped up a full grain on this)
2285fps- 5rd avg. Ejection was not hard but also not as easy as before. The brass still looked ok but the case rim had a small mark. No primer issues.
Charge #5- (This one blew my mind). 2342fps- 5rd avg.
The lever in both rifles was hard enough to require removing the rifle from my shoulder. Mild primer catering.

I backed off .02 grains at this point and tried 5 more rounds for accuracy. The primer cratering went away and although stiff, I could work the action at my shoulder.
The Henry averaged 1.55" at 100 yards using a Burris XTRII 1-5×24.

The Winchester however averaged .89" at 100 yards using a danged Leupold Delta Point Pro red dot. I suspect its because this rifle has better balance and is therefore easier to shoot.

If the muzzle energy calculator is correct, that is 1900ft lbs of energy from a pistol caliber carbine!!! That load also surpasses the max load for that bullet weight in a 30-30 (according to HodgdensReloading).

Now, I would NOT ever consider a regular diet of these in a levergun of any make or model but for a hunting load....yeah this dog will hunt!!!

I think I would like to try them in a Ruger 77/357 bolt action.

I will post pictures once I get them all sorted out. My wife took a bunch.

I also shot this loading into a test medum to see how it performed. A 1/4" thick piece of leather over a 1# bologna pack backed by 1/2" particle board and then 6-1 gallon water jugs. The bologna back vaporized, as did the first water jug. Then It was straight line penetration to the 4th jug with slight hole at the back.

The bullet fragmented and there were particles in all the jugs with the 4th jug holding the majority which still weighed 117.8 grains.

It was a fun day. Oh, I did the initial testing with the rifles strapped into a leadsled and used a piece of cordage to pull the trigger....

[Bill in Oregon]

Well I am certainly impressed!

[Tycer]

Yeah, once you get over about 90% of case capacity LG gets unpredictable.

[wvfarrier]

These are definitely NOT my "everyday" loads

[.45colt]

I did much the same thing around 2007 with a .45 colt in a 24" rifle. near 1800fps with a Keith/Lyman 265gr hardcast , never had any issues . lots of H110 as well. finally got a 45-70. You got some really good groups for Hot loads!

[Turdyturdy]

My Grandfather used to tell us if we needed more than 8 grains of Unique in the 1892 38-40 we should move up to a 30-30. He had 1 can of Unique from the Depression era and I shot the last of it about 5 years ago in that 1892. That powder shot like it was made yesterday.

[COSteve]

As I've said before, my tests at my range using an Oehler 35 Chrono at 6,100 ft asl and an 84° day with H110 and Lil'Gun show in my .357 mag Rossi R92 20" carbine and Rossi R92 24" rifle using Zero 158grn JHP bullets, Max book powder charges (16.7 grn H110 and 18.0 grns Lil'Gun) and SR primers (yours may vary) that Lil'Gun produces 10.0% higher velocities; 2,005fps vs 1,822fps than H110 with the same accuracy in my rifle and produces 9.1% higher velocities with the same charges; 1,952fps vs 1,789fps with the same accuracy in my carbine.

Further, and a primary reason that I switched to Lil'Gun, with it's peak pressure of only 25,800 CUP vs H110's peak pressure of 40,700 CUP (per Hodgdon's Reloading Site), my brass lasts a heck of a lot longer and isn't so beat up when fired.

I talked to Hodgdon CS and asked the burning temps of both powders and he looked them up and then stated that they were the same. I explained that the chamber got hotter with Lil'Gun vs H110 and he said it was simply the result of the larger charge weight 16.7 grns of H110 vs 18.0 grns of Lil'Gun which makes sense.

BTW, I use those Lil'Gun loads to shoot at bowling pins at 200 yds (a 2.3 MOA target for only about 1.5" of it's height at that range) and 300 yds (a 1.53 MOA target for only about 1.5" of it's height at that range) with a tang w/target aperture and Lyman globe front sight on my rifle. As the 200 yd shots are relatively easy to hit and the 300 yd shots doable when I'm 'on' that day, I consider both to be very accurate.

I have done some testing with higher charge weights of Lil'Gun due to it's low peak pressure but as they're compressed charges and they gave significant velocity increases, I don't use them. I was just curious as to what would happen.

[earlmck]

My Grandfather used to tell us if we needed more than 8 grains of Unique in the 1892 38-40 we should move up to a 30-30. He had 1 can of Unique from the Depression era and I shot the last of it about 5 years ago in that 1892. That powder shot like it was made yesterday.

Give my old 38?40 '92 a casefull of RL7 behind the Accurate 200 grainer and I don't need any 30/30. Grandpa didn't get to try RL-7 I'd bet.

And in my Rossi I had to drop down to a little shorty 140 grain bullet to keep stabilized when I shoot out to 600 yards. Anybody else get stabilization problems with those longer bullets? But I never got any 160's up to 2100 fps either -- those might stabilize on out there...

[wvfarrier]

My Grandfather used to tell us if we needed more than 8 grains of Unique in the 1892 38-40 we should move up to a 30-30. He had 1 can of Unique from the Depression era and I shot the last of it about 5 years ago in that 1892. That powder shot like it was made yesterday.

Unique is now and probably always will be my fsvorite powder. Its also insanely versatile

[wvfarrier]

As I've said before, my tests at my range using an Oehler 35 Chrono at 6,100 ft asl and an 84° day with H110 and Lil'Gun show in my .357 mag Rossi R92 20" carbine and Rossi R92 24" rifle using Zero 158grn JHP bullets, Max book powder charges (16.7 grn H110 and 18.0 grns Lil'Gun) and SR primers (yours may vary) that Lil'Gun produces 10.0% higher velocities; 2,005fps vs 1,822fps than H110 with the same accuracy in my rifle and produces 9.1% higher velocities with the same charges; 1,952fps vs 1,789fps with the same accuracy in my carbine.

Further, and a primary reason that I switched to Lil'Gun, with it's peak pressure of only 25,800 CUP vs H110's peak pressure of 40,700 CUP (per Hodgdon's Reloading Site), my brass lasts a heck of a lot longer and isn't so beat up when fired.

I talked to Hodgdon CS and asked the burning temps of both powders and he looked them up and then stated that they were the same. I explained that the chamber got hotter with Lil'Gun vs H110 and he said it was simply the result of the larger charge weight 16.7 grns of H110 vs 18.0 grns of Lil'Gun which makes sense.

BTW, I use those Lil'Gun loads to shoot at bowling pins at 200 yds (a 2.3 MOA target for only about 1.5" of it's height at that range) and 300 yds (a 1.53 MOA target for only about 1.5" of it's height at that range) with a tang w/target aperture and Lyman globe front sight on my rifle. As the 200 yd shots are relatively easy to hit and the 300 yd shots doable when I'm 'on' that day, I consider both to be very accurate.

I have done some testing with higher charge weights of Lil'Gun due to it's low peak pressure but as they're compressed charges and they gave significant velocity increases, I don't use them. I was just curious as to what would happen.

One reason I was hopeful that Lil Gun would work for me was that it typically runs at a lot lower pressures than H110, usually by 10,000 psi in comparable loads

[Rockrat]

If you can find any MP300, it works very well in the 357mag rifle.

[wvfarrier]

Apparently some of the casings were weakened. I was depriming and resizing this one and it fractured. I had a heckuva time gettijg it out of the die.

[Nath]

Thems a sizzling!!

[ywaltzucanrknrl]

Wvfarrier, I've always found the nickel plated brass more brittle and it generally cracks a lot sooner that regular brass. The fracture on yours doesn't surprise me.

Those are impressive velocities. I've been using about 14 grains of 4227, but never chrono graphed the load, but it is accurate. I have about 5 pounds of 4227 that was given to me and I've been trying to use it up.

Earl, you ever chrono graph your 38-40 load with RL-7?

[wvfarrier]

I tried 4227 last year but couldnt get the velocities up where I wanted.

[AJMD429]

.
Has anyone ever explained the physics behind why the Lil-Gun seems to so often cause way more heating of the barrels...?? It would seem like the heat would be a function of friction and of pressure, and since the velocities can be the same as other powders yet the barrel hotter, it shouldn't be friction - but then that would mean 'pressure' - yet the pressure is purportedly LESS with Lil-Gun than the others...

Seems odd.

[ywaltzucanrknrl]

Doc, Kind of remembering from P Chem and Chem (many years ago) from bomb experiments to measure calories or joules, heat can be independent of pressure and velocity. The comment from whoever CoSteve talked with makes some sense as a larger quantity generally will produce more heat. But I suspect the composition of the compound has some thing to do with it also, I believe compounds like C-4 produce a high wave velocity with less heat than say a single base or double base powder or black powder would given the same quantity.

But it's odd that he also said both Lil gun and H110 have the same burn temp or maybe it isn't odd, I don't know.

Something like that anyway. I work with some explosives and chemical cutters on occasion and there is quite a difference in the heat released by different compounds given similar volumes to produce the desired result. We mainly use these compounds to cut or blow (weaken) underground casing so it can be separated.

[ywaltzucanrknrl]

Well, it's morning and that statement I made yesterday deserves some ridicule I think, kind of like Kamala Harris, maybe a little better as I knew where I was going but didn't know how to get there....HA!