Which 92 is the strongest?

[mickbr]

Are there any thoughts or technical opinions on this. How say the Browning, Rossi, Miroku, Chiappa 92's rank for inherent strength, or is it all much of a muchness, being 92's are all strong.

[Pisgah]

They are all of the same design, constructed of suitable materials. I'd be shocked if there were any significant difference in strength.

[LeverGunner]

I would venture a guess that the Miroku Winchesters/Brownings are stronger than the Rossi, with the others somewhere on the higher end.

[Pat C]

The only key strength difference would be if Miroku or Chiappa used steel forgings. I've yet to see a specification from either web site. Of course Rossi is a casting.

[wvfarrier]

The japanese know how to work steel

[jreidthompson]

The 454 Rossi is likely the strongest.

[kaschi]

I've never seen or handled a Chiappa 92. How do they stack up in terms of quality?

[mickbr]

they look nice but know of stores who wont handle them due to warranty issues. But that may apply to a variety of brands.

[Grizz]

i would be surprised if there were not a wide variety of strengths. there are variations in alloys, in heat treatments, and in process control. without knowing the exact heat treat process there is no starting point for comparisons, unless someone wanted to carefully blow up the various firearms made to the model 92 plans.

somewhere there is an article about levergun frames stretching from high pressure loads . . . don't recall the details . . .

[Pat C]

The Chiappa 1892 is the closest copy that's been made of the 1892 Winchester. They claim parts interchange with original Winchesters. It's the most expensive of the lot though. Coming close to nice Winchester price at $1500

The older Miroku Browning B92 is very nice but hard to find and same expensive price.

Modern Miroku Winchesters look decent, don't like the safety and the frames just don't quite match original design exactly.
Mostly cosmetic differences.

I guess you could say most of what I don't like about the Miroku is subtle details that just don't match the original Winchester. And it wouldn't be hard to produce exact copy vs close enough copy in my opinion.

[Galloway]

Steel, heat treat and measurements would be a start. This is a great question i've wondered myself.

[Old Savage]

All conjecture without testing. IIRC JimT and Paco did some testing of various Leverguns,

[Pat C]

As far as the OP question , "strongest" it will simply come down to whether the Miroku or Chiappa use a forging or not.
We know Rossi uses steel casted parts . Forgings are stronger than castings by as much as 20-30% .

If the Miroku and Chiappa are both forgings then it will come down to steel heat treat and dimensional specifications of finished parts.

Most however will never know any differences in these for average shooting.

[Grizz]

OK ok . . ,

been reading up on the arguments about forged receivers vs cast receivers and there are glorious arguments on both sides. but i have to wonder . . ,
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how would I forge a model 92 receiver? what would I start with? see that? every piece of steel we buy was already a casting when it was poured in the foundry. people think that pounding on steel refines the grain, but that is not true. I find this out by pounding on steel tabs in a vice to examine the grain structure. the steel i buy is sold in the annealed state, which has large grain structure because the crystalline structure is relaxed.
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but ok, anyway, i have a slab of annealed steel and i want to "forge" it into a model 92 receiver. how do i do this?. by heating in the forge and driving a drift thru as if putting an eye into an axe project? And then pounding the insides against dies to make all the complicated inner shapes? and drifting a hole for the barrel and mag tube? it seems to me that the block of annealed steel that is the starting point of a receiver has to be machined to specs to get the surfaces and shapes and tolerances required. in which case it is starting out as a casting from the mill...,
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ok, but what about refining grain size? this does not happen by pounding steel, it happens by heat treating steel to the point that the elements dissolve so that the molecules are free to distribute themselves internally, at which point the item is plunged into a liquid to "freeze" the internal molecular lattice into the desired distribution, after which it has to be "drawn back" from the glass like hardness to a tempered hardness, and this process is what fixes the grain structure.
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ever watch "forged in fire" reality tv? the same processes are schematically followed by the smiths, say to create a steel ingot from a motorcycle chain and powdered steel. that's right powdered steel. making the modern version of damascus. and they produce knives in hours, and some of them break in testing with large grain internal structure, and some of the get thru testing with a sharp edge and no deformation.
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what's the difference? since they all presumably get the same tempering process, i've never seen that explained, the ONLY difference among the blades is the skill of correctly quenching the steel at the correct internal structure and the correct actual core temperature.
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castings, such as ruger makes, are all begun as a molten alloy that is poured into a mold, and then heat treated and machined. ingots such as the steel mills make are all poured out of a big kettle in a liquid state, just like a molded casting. unless my memory has completely failed me ruger is so good at casting metal that they produce the fan blades that are critical to the functioning of jet engines, they endure thousands of hours of heating and cooling cycles over their life span. every time we ride in a jet plane our lives are suspended in space by cast steel thingamabobs that ruger produces...
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i actually do not know how a forged receiver could be produced except by machining it. in which case it began life as a liquid that was annealed to dead soft. but there is so much that i don't know and i am hoping someone can explain and illustrate what makes a forged receiver forged to a 3D object that has internal shapes that are finished to a tolerance of a few thousandth of an inch.
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yes i know that there are some cast parts in cheap guns, like the wrangler, but that is cost saving so they can sell a gun to someone as cheap as i am. But the steel in the cylinder was at one time liquid, then machined to specs. it was not pounded into a cylinder.
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a link to a master class in metallurgy >>> https://knifesteelnerds.com/ <<< by someone zoned into metallurgy
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looking into steel.jpg

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watching the internal components coming out of solution, when it's heating in the forge you can see the internal changes taking place, and when they stop changing it the time to quench. hotter is larger grain...
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This is one of my favorite topics to study and i would like to know more about it . . .

grizz

[Old Savage]

Interesting. I had an uncle who was a trouble shooter for Fairless Steel.

I wonder what applications we are talking about where this 92 receiver strength would be tested, maybe 454 level.

[Grizz]

Interesting. I had an uncle who was a trouble shooter for Fairless Steel.

I wonder what applications we are talking about where this 92 receiver strength would be tested, maybe 454 level.

I'd guess tests to destruction that measure the force needed to deform and then destroy the samples. This could be done on heat-treated slabs of the steel used by the manufacturers, rather than the receivers. The steel can be sectioned and examined with digital microscopes. The pressure barrels that proof loads might maybe show stress effects after time, don't know about that.

I have steels that I can't heat treat for maximum performance. To get that I'd have to send a knfie-shaped object to a specialist where the heat treat ovens are operated in a vacuum, and the ramp up, heat soak, and ramp down times and temperatures specified by the manufacturers are controlled by computers, after which the specific tempering routine is done with similar precision. After that the blade is finish ground, hafted, sharpened and tested. Very technical stuff, and a long way off from the blacksmith methods used on simpler steels. If I tried that on the alloys I have I would waste a lot of money on the steel. 1084 and 5160 are two simple steels that yield high performance tools, just not as "high" as the new pet steel recipes.

maybe a little like a blues on my bass and then by an actual musician. no comparison really . . . the nuances are nearly unlimited

[Pat C]

Castings have no grain orientation it's random varying sizes with tiny voids between crystals.

Winchester just like most everyone else used hot rolled round bar placed in an open two piece die. When the bar is placed over it the drop hammer pounds it into the rough shape of the receiver. Thus condensing , aligning the grain boundaries and causing them to flow over and around the shape of raw forging.

Ever see those forging grain lines in old Winchester?

Modern alloy steel that's forged is superior to any of the old Winchester and Marlin frames . But the old steels of low carbon because they were forged they were strong enough for the time.

[Pat C]

Something you have to consider is traditionally there was no heat treatment on the 1892 Winchester because it was made from low carbon steel. The raw steel ingots were rolled then forged to shape , normalized , then machined .

Doubtful if any of the Miroku or Chiappa have heat treated frames.

The Rossi is soft but these actions do not need to be hardened. And really the difference in strength most would never see in a lifetime using factory ammo.

Seen in this original 1892 is the end grains , notice the flow of the grain . These lines are the product of coarse grain structure with no heat treat. The edges break down over time in these older steels.

[Old Savage]

Actual testing - the rifles - is the only way to settle the question and what the various brands will stand up to.

Otherwise just prognostication .


Now what tests would you suggest?

[Old Savage]

Looking at this in a practical sense, Win and Chiappa are only available up to 44 Mag. Rossis certainly I would expect up to that.

[Old Savage]

So, question - are there any examples of castings failing at the factory 44 Mag level?

[348win]

You guys triggered me to go look this up and add the link, speaking of Ruger and their metallurgy,

Hats off to Ruger per usual

I remember reading it long ago

300 shots fired at 92,000psi

https://www.carpentertechnology.com/blo ... ace-alloys

[Grizz]

You guys triggered me to go look this up and add the link, speaking of Ruger and their metallurgy,

Hats off to Ruger per usual

I remember reading it long ago

300 shots fired at 92,000psi

https://www.carpentertechnology.com/blo ... ace-alloys

Thanks so much for the link. It's the wonder of metals technology.

[LeverGunner]

You guys triggered me to go look this up and add the link, speaking of Ruger and their metallurgy,

Hats off to Ruger per usual

I remember reading it long ago

300 shots fired at 92,000psi

https://www.carpentertechnology.com/blo ... ace-alloys

WOW, thanks for sharing that. A cylinder full is something, but 300 is spectacular.

[Grizz]

of course what this means is,
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https://www.marlinfirearms.com/s/model_70401/
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1894.jpg

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this is in reach for a 454 or 50 Beo.
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we loved this rifle in 44 Mag, and the 405Gr loads would be over the top
besides the Casull range of ammo becomes avail with the super-steels
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as well as the Winchester Model 92, my favorite oldie . . . ,

I know, Rossi etc etc. This might be the strongest, but is it Ruger strong? I Don't know anything about their metallurgy...
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not holding my breath,

grizz

[Pat C]

Just talked to Winchester and the 1892 is made from alloy steel forgings. So that should cover Miroku .

[Old Savage]

For what?

[Pat C]

For what?

Meaning Miroku 1892's , Browning and Winchester are made from alloy steel forgings. Confirmed by them.

Haven't heard from Chiappa yet but what I read online in reviews it says frames are forged. But waiting on confirmation.

If Chiappa is indeed a forged frame of alloy steel it would come down to dimensional tolerances and sub componant quality as well as barrel steel and type.

To fully test each frame would be mounted to a test barrel .Mounted in a fixture and HPT proof round would be fired.
Slowing going up in PSI until failure occurs.

Nobody will be testing strengths of Pistol caliber rifles. But if they did Forged all steel will win everytime if specifications and dimensions are equal.

Usually investment cast frames are dimensionally beefier to add strength .This is the case with Ruger

[Old Savage]

What is the point of a strength difference when none are chambered for anything more powerful than the 44 Mag and they are all strong enough for that.

Well ironically except Rossi that lists a 454 Casull which is stainless how ever that affects the issue.

[Pat C]

What is the point of a strength difference when none are chambered for anything more powerful than the 44 Mag and they are all strong enough for that.

Well ironically except Rossi that lists a 454 Casull which is stainless how ever that affects the issue.

That's why I made my point about they're only pistol cartridges anyway. But the OP asked and that's were the thread went.

Probably anything made today is stronger than the the originals due to advancements in metallurgy.

The old Winchester frames had zero heat treat for hardness as the metal was very low carbon. It went through the pouring into ingot , then hot rolled, forged, and normalized .Then finally machined and finished.

Very course grain structure which is why the end grains break down and show on the sides of most early examples.

[Turdyturdy]

Well the 454 Casull operates at 62,000 psi, the 44mag at 42,000 so by necessity the Rossi 454 has to be the strongest. None of the other 92s chamber beyond the 44mag so……

[Old Savage]

PatC - And I am addressing his last sentence and overall point.

[Pat C]

You guys are forgetting one major thing . The R92 454 is not same as regular carbon steel varieties. It's receiver is supposed to have been beefed up and added stainless steel plus heat treated. Comparing apples to oranges

When comparing for strength all things must be same. Same material, same design , same hardness of material . Change any one of these and test is useless.

Just like comparing a Ruger Black Hawk to Colt SAA

Ruger is made of 4140 alloy steel much heavier frame than the Colt SAA and that's why it's stronger

[Grizz]

You guys are forgetting one major thing . The R92 454 is not same as regular carbon steel varieties. It's receiver is supposed to have been beefed up and added stainless steel plus heat treated. Comparing apples to oranges

When comparing for strength all things must be same. Same material, same design , same hardness of material . Change any one of these and test is useless.

Just like comparing a Ruger Black Hawk to Colt SAA

Ruger is made of 4140 alloy steel much heavier frame than the Colt SAA and that's why it's stronger

Exactly right. It's precisely why the alloy is pertinent, there are hundreds of variations of carbon steel, and they all have different qualities and properties. To say a barrel is made from 4140 is info but not specific info. I have knives and chisels made from 4140 steel, all those things have a different hardness and different working qualities. I might not want my gun parts tempered to spring steel, or hard as a knife blade . . .

grizz

[Old Savage]

PatC - the OP asked about the strength of 92s including Rossi. You are adding a twist here of your own.

[Pat C]

PatC - the OP asked about the strength of 92s including Rossi. You are adding a twist here of your own.

I guess I am but only the OP can tell us what he is referring to.
Since he stated between Miroku,Chiappa, Browning, Rossi one can only assume he means models of current standard offerings . The 454 can not be compared as it's a Rossi only varient.

[Old Savage]

One can assume he means what he asked. Which 92 is strongest? . .., without further qualifiers.

Among the standards the issue is moot as they are all strong enough for the 44 Mag which is the upper end of their standard offerings.

Certainly he can refine the question if he so chooses. We are not mind readers.

My Rossi 45 Colt easily handles loads with a 360 gr at 1350 fps from friend Cowboy Tutt the 454 aficionado. Always fun with Andy.

[mickbr]

I was including all of the 92's I could think of fellas. But I admit I didnt know the Rossi 454( and Id assume also the 480?) had a different composition or treatment so thats interesting information there.

[Pat C]

I guess since we're going down this rabbit hole might as well include Big Horn Armory model 89 modified and beefed up 1892 with 1886 loading port . Billet 17-4 PH chambered in 454 casull and 500 Linbaugh and 500 S&W

Chiappa got back with me and their 1892 is made from barstock or as they put it a solid block of steel.

Miroku which includes Winchester and Browning made from forged alloy steel

Rossi made from investment cast alloy and stainless steels

[Old Savage]

mickbr - purpose or just curiosity in your question? I have had Brownings and Rossis.

[mickbr]

Curiosity, but also tied in with my other thread on a Rossi 480 conversion, considering the best donor being the 480's higher pressures. Just emailed Steve on that note. He said its doable on a Rossi, also said a slightly larger OD barrel would avoid one of the original issues which was the front sight dovetails being a little shallow. Hope he doesnt mind me mentioning his reply, I can edit it if he wants.

I asked him a few more questions but I think he was worried where it was going in that I was asking him if he wanted the project and that was the end of that. Cant blame a fella for asking.

i've determined to get one, one way or another.

[mickbr]

I guess since we're going down this rabbit hole might as well include Big Horn Armory model 89 modified and beefed up 1892 with 1886 loading port . Billet 17-4 PH chambered in 454 casull and 500 Linbaugh and 500 S&W

Chiappa got back with me and their 1892 is made from barstock or as they put it a solid block of steel.

Miroku which includes Winchester and Browning made from forged alloy steel

Rossi made from investment cast alloy and stainless steels

Thanks for that info. Interesting the Rossi in 454 the one equal to the BHA for pressures used.

[Old Savage]

I used to do some test shooting for Jack Huntington of African hunting revolver fame had some he wouldn’t do because of lack of metal in the gun to be safe with the cartridges.

[Pat C]

The Big Horn Armory frame is 17-4 PH stainless fully machined from barstock and then salt bath nitritated for final finish and surface hardness. 17-4 is a great gun metal corrosion resistant , around 32 HRC in its annealed state.
Couple that with salt bath nitrate you have an exceptionally strong frame. Also note the extra steel around the front of frame. These are true custom guns and carry a healthy price tag .

[Grizz]

The Big Horn Armory frame is 17-4 PH stainless fully machined from barstock and then salt bath nitritated for final finish and surface hardness. 17-4 is a great gun metal corrosion resistant , around 32 HRC in its annealed state.
Couple that with salt bath nitrate you have an exceptionally strong frame. Also note the extra steel around the front of frame. These are true custom guns and carry a healthy price tag .

this is good info about the metal . . . and it's available >
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https://www.mcmaster.com/products/17-4- ... less-steel

it sounds like a dream for machinists.... there are people around here who have the skills to make such a frame from scratch . . . with computer controlled tools there should be no barrier, other than capital costs, to making one.

as for corrosion resistance, my stainless smith revolvers are more resistant to corrosion than the early stainless blackhawks. this is based on a blackhawk i met that spent the winter in Juneau laying in the open on a fishing boat, unattended... it was a corroded mess. my smith revolvers lived on fishing boats on a shelf in the wheel house for years, with long times in unheated conditions, and the most i ever saw was a light brown spot that wiped off. i'm hoping the redhawk stainless stains less than the older revolver did...

thanks for posting the metal details

grizz

[348win]

I live under a rock......

Because I was unaware of the Big Horn Armory Rifles

THOSE ARE SWEET

[kaschi]

So far Big Horn Armory hasn't made a Model 89 or Model 90 with a straight grip. I'm hoping they will though at some point. A lever action carbine with a pistol grip just looks odd, to me at least.

[LeverGunner]

My buddy has a Big Horn Armory in 500, and he says it's very nice. He doesn't push the limits in it. I haven't had a chance to handle it yet.

[AJMD429]

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My Big Horn Armory 89 is the 8-shot 'carbine' version - it is about the same length and heft as a Marlin Guide Gun, but throws a larger diameter bullet and has a shorter lever throw, being a 'pistol' cartridge. More steel in important places, so I think it is less likely to fail than the modified 336's stretched to the huge 45-70 case. Something over 4,000 ft-lbs with some of the loads, yet the stock design and recoil pad make it feel about like firing a 20 gauge shotgun. The nitride finish on stainless metal is a nice dull matte finish, and the stock is beautiful enough for a 'safe queen' but that would be cruel. I need to shoot it more, since it is kind of a 'do-all' levergun, really. Light loads of hard-cast don't destroy a rabbit but they will behead it.

Between the 500 S&W on the big end, and the 32-20 on the little end, you could almost 'get by' that way. Fill in the gaps as you please - with modern 45 Colt, 44 Mag, 41 Mag, or 357 Mag, or some more hyphenated cartridges. Add a pointy-bullet levergun or bolt-action for far-away stuff, and you have a LOT covered.

I do like the 16" Rossi 92's in 454 Casull (or any of the other cartridges), due to them being almost as handy as a large pistol, but if I really want to anchor something dangerous on the spot, I think I'd reach for the BHA 89.

I got it on a whim when I had a bit of a cash influx, and it remains the most expensive firearm I've ever bought, but I'd rather have it than three 'regular' leverguns, so I think it was worth it.

[348win]

Heck yea, congrats on owning that Big Horn Armory Rifle

I would say if you could only have one.......that models a contender as a DO ALL