Grizzlies and the 30-30

[Grizz]

But Tutt, there is an epic story of someone in the interior landing his piper cub on a lake and hiking off on a hunt. the story goes that he sprayed his floats with the bear spray thinking it would protect the plane. when he got back the floats were destroyed. After that we used to remind ourselves that the way to track a bear was to follow the little bells that smell like pepper......

another story without the bear spray component was the guy who landed his aircraft in a tundra location on a hunting trip. when he got back brer bear had shredded the fabric. the pilot however countered with a massive supply of duct tape he carried for emergencies. he mended the skin of his plane and flew it home..

another tale is about the helicopter that was destroyed. don't know any more than that, but it was a good laugh.

and finally, I was in a Grumman Goose flying through mountain passes on the way to Juneau. on a knoll below was a blueberry bush and a Ginormous bear stripping berries. when the goose passed over the bear leaped high over the bush and swiped with the huge paw at the airplane. my takeaway is that bears are grouchy and they hate things that fly over them and disturb the peace!

[buckeyeshooter]

I will say this, I have killed exactly one grizzly bear, a Toklat from the Alaska Range on a population control hunt. A boar, he weighed an estimated 450#, and squared at 6'6". My good friend and I were hunting the Castner Creek drainage when we spotted him rolling boulders looking for a ground squirrel snack, we later tried rolling one of the boulders, and the two of us could barely roll a boulder he was moving like it was a marble.We got to within 80 yards, and I proceeded to send four 200 grain bullets clear through him with my Ruger 300 Win Mag. At the first shot he turned and headed downhill, I could cover all four entrance wounds with my hand, the exits were a completely different story. Just before he made the alders, my bud asked if I wanted him to shoot, I yelled YES! He sent one Nosler Partition into the bear from a Winchester Model 94 in 30-30. While we didn't recover any of my bullets as they had all exited, we found his just under the hide on the opposite side after fully penetrating the paunch. The bear expired about 30 yards into some thick alders, I almost put a 45 caliber bullet through his skull from my Blackhawk, as when we found him it kind of surprised me, and I might have been a little, shall we say "keyed up", I had a loaded rifle, but the instinct for whatever reason had me draw my sixgun. He stunk of rotting fish as we skinned him, not at all like the almost sweet smell of the fall black bears, so we ended up only packing out the head and hide, I have eaten a grizzly another good friend killed in a Delta Junction alfalfa field, and it was good table fare, this, wasn't taking a chance. Following weekend another friend had the same results as I did shooting a 338 Win Mag with 250 grain bullets. All of this long winded blathering on, is my way of saying that I am fairly certain I would prefer something slightly more substantial than a 30-30 for facing a grizzly or brown bear, while I have little doubt it will get the job done, some really bad things can happen in the margins, so I would prefer to keep them as small as possible, and would likely stick with the old 45 2.1" in my Marlin 1895GS, my 375 Ruger would not be a bad choice either, and likely would have been in my hands that day had it been around.Bearrug3.jpg

very nice looking rug

[High Desert Hunter]

Thank you!

[AJMD429]

Please explain “pretty solid research”.

Well, I stand corrected I think. While 2 studies that are often compared showed that bear spray is very effective and firearms were not, the way the research was conducted was very flawed although it is generally used and taught now. This guy gives a very good analysis of the 2 studies. -Tutt

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-a ... pray-work/

That's a really interesting article and makes a lot of good points.

It kind of sounds like bears are like human bullies. Three steps to deal with them:

1. AVOID them if possible. Maintain situational awareness and avoid situations where they may hang out. If you do stumble upon one try to ease away from them without attracting attention.

2. PERSUADE them if you are able. If you come to their attention try to appear non-threatening and non-challenging. Use gentle persuasion to redirect their attention ("hey, look at that cool Corvette that guy's got over there..." or "hey this captation spray really smells nasty maybe we should get out of here").

3. SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE promptly if they attack you during or after the above methods fail. Repeat until they cease aggression.

A physically fit and young and tough guy might be able to substitute 'PUNCH them in the face' for step number three if it's a human attacking them, but for a scrawny old guy like me the human would have to get the same treatment as the bear if I expected to prevail. Unless maybe some 4-year-old kid decides to attack me....

I guess the other issue is that bears are a lot tougher than humans. Most humans shot in the face with a 22 short but probably back off pretty quickly but I would expect a few shot at charging grizzly bear your bullet had best go right up one of the nostrils or eye sockets, and it had best be a pretty tough bullet as well.

Definitely step one needs to be followed, unless you really feel the need to bet your life on whether or not you can rapidly hit a 3-inch circle coming at you at 35 mph with your first shot.

[CowboyTutt]

Doc, old friend, and hopefully healing well, glad you actually took the time to review the article and its findings. I hope others may do so also. My "take away" was that bear spray is roughly 90% percent effective in up to an "aggressive bear" (which was not clearly defined in either of the studies) but only roughly 30% effective on a charging bear. I will keep my gun and train with it thanks. Maybe carry both. Thank you Brother!

Sincerely,

-Tutt

[piller]

No experience, so I have to read what others say. My personal experiences on other things lean toward the use of a gun. I would try to have a gun in bear territory. I would probably carry bear spray in addition to the gun. One thing I would not do is go alone at my age and with my health problems.

[AJMD429]

No experience, so I have to read what others say. My personal experiences on other things lean toward the use of a gun. I would try to have a gun in bear territory. I would probably carry bear spray in addition to the gun. One thing I would not do is go alone at my age and with my health problems.

Yeah I forgot Step 1a:

Always have at least one companion....

...Preferably someone overweight and not able to run very fast. Pack a bacon sandwich for them to snack on if you're walking in dense cover...

[Drawdown]

Take plenty of gun, make sure there's plenty powder in the cartridge! Bearspray=BS!

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Wilderness Hunting by Townsend Whelen

[AJMD429]

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I have never read any of Whelen's books, but I love books like that.

[hfcable]

and if you have significant asthma DO NOT USE BEARSPRAY ! i personally know of two deaths due to bearspray in patients who had asthma, and not particularly severe asthma at that. i have moderately severe asthma and would think of using that stuff.

[Drawdown]

Done knew I wouldn't try it, can't take hardly any fumes. I have Black lung, copd, emphysema, smoked 25 years, and then when I retired, found out I have Alpha 1 ZZ. Take infusion every 2 weeks, and on home oxygen. I worked underground mining almost 40 years, and I ran a continuous miner 32 of those years,, no doubt the dustiest industrial job in america! Needless to say I struggle to do everything, and I hunt steep mountains. When going far I take a portable nebulizer for albuterol. I still go, can't quit!
Doc, nobody else I'd rather read, got 3 his books, wish he'd wrote more, he's the real deal. Not just a writer. Got couple Teddy's books too.
The best read by far I've ever read is "Red Letter Days in British Columbia" by Whelen. It's just a 10-12 page short story. Wish he'd wrote an entire book on that one trip alone!

[piller]

Not many people will tell on themselves.

[Drawdown]

For anyone that may not have read Whelens story. The first 2 pages and last 2.

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One item listed in their supplies, you might find kinda peculiar?

[Drawdown]

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[piller]

Prunes?

[Drawdown]

Middle of wilderness is miserable place to get all locked up!

[Drawdown]

I enjoyed reading & pics on another site past few days of a guy in Alaska who'd recently taken Grizzlies with a beautiful old Mod 94 30-30, hunting them that is not a charging grizzly! But did a search on this, an often favorite topic, and found this, one I remember, and had to resurrect it, its too good to forget!

[AmBraCol]

I enjoyed reading & pics on another site past few days of a guy in Alaska who'd recently taken Grizzlies with a beautiful old Mod 94 30-30, hunting them that is not a charging grizzly! But did a search on this, an often favorite topic, and found this, one I remember, and had to resurrect it, its too good to forget!

Not a bad choice for your 777th post...

[Drawdown]

Hmm, something to think about!

[kaschi]

There was an interview with well known guide and gun writer in Alaska named Phil Shoemaker who shot one with a 9mm S&W pistol at point blank range. He shot it multiple times and the bear died but he said it was a pretty scary experience.

[JimT]

There was an interview with well known guide and gun writer in Alaska named Phil Shoemaker who shot one with a 9mm S&W pistol at point blank range. He shot it multiple times and the bear died but he said it was a pretty scary experience.

I was privileged to spend a week with him at The Shootists Holiday a couple years ago. A very nice gentleman and the kind of person that I would trust. Soft spoken. No brag. Knowledgeable about what he does.

[wvfarrier]

My dad killed his (back in early 80s) when he was a guide with a 30-30. I know he used a hard cast load but I am not sure what it was. He passed quite a long time ago so I cannot get the info but it was a "bang, roll, flop" and the bear was near 900#. He used the same load for nearly everything from coyotes to bear. IIRC it was larger projectile that he swaged and then trimmed so it was more a keith style handgun projectile but my memory is not what it used to be

[Eddie Southgate]

I think if you wait for a Griz to "rear up" at 10' or so... your going to have a short day.

You and me both.

[Grizz]

there are a number of books about bears in alaska, what happens, and what the results are. easy search online. Much of what i read online is someone remembering what someone who heard it from someone else said it on the internet.

ADF&G is adamant that there is not a bear problem that bells and a nasal inhalant can't solve. But when I was there they were carrying 458 Win mags with short barrels. {how's that for a ballistic issue?}

And they think their stats about how many people don't get mauled and eaten by bears prove how little there is to worry about. That's like air-travel stats. If I'm the one in the plane that does crash, I am not comforted by those stats.

What I know about them, from my friends and my own stalking-times, isn't useful for anybody else because bears are just as varied in their attitudes and tolerances as we are . . . they are the thugs who own the 'hood. I like seeing them from a distance. I hate seeing the fresh size 24 tracks in the fresh fallen snow, knowing that they know exactly where i am. that's spooky.

[Turdyturdy]

May, 1953, Slave Lake Alberta, Cree Native Bella Twin killed a world record Grizzly bear with her Cooey Ace # 1 22 rim fire. Close range 1 shot through the left eye and 7 more near the first. The first shot was thought to be actually fatal.She was 63 years old and less than 5 feet tall. She was checking her trap lines at the time. They don’t make them like they used to!

[Grizz]

May, 1953, Slave Lake Alberta, Cree Native Bella Twin killed a world record Grizzly bear with her Cooey Ace # 1 22 rim fire. Close range 1 shot through the left eye and 7 more near the first. The first shot was thought to be actually fatal.She was 63 years old and less than 5 feet tall. She was checking her trap lines at the time. They don’t make them like they used to!

this is interesting because i knew the sister of a cook on the pipeline survey crew who killed a bear entering her tent with a 22, WAIT, ONE, she killed the bear with her 22, . . . so we have two data points . . . any more out there ? and how many of those would it take for the 22 to make the bear defense firearms list?

[LeverGunner]

An interesting discussion. I read it all. I've never hunted bear, nor been in griz country. They do have blacks around here, but not enough that there is a season. When I was about 14 I saw bear tracks at a farm pond I was fishing, just a mile and a half from the house. I told a local about it and was told that the guy across the road from that fishing hole had seen a bear.

I've read bear tales of Alaska by Larry Kaniut, I've read both of them, plus several of his other books. I remember one story of a guy that shot a bear with a 458 Winchester Magnum, and the bear did not seem phased by it.

Would I carry my Winchester 30-30 for bear defense? Yes, because my 30-30 and I are very close; I know it inside and out, and it is the most natural and intuitive gun I have.

Ok, not a Grizzly, but I got the following story from a friend of mine in AZ, whose friend told him the following:

Another personal experience story from a local friend of mine who was an actual AZ cowboy years ago He did this when he was only 11 years old!


I think I have already told you one shooting story that I am most proud of, I call it my “Davy Crockett” story—you know…”killed him a ‘bar(bear) when he was only three”…. Well on our ranch at Young, bears were a big calf killing problem. One day at the tender age of 11 yrs. (1961), I was out punchin’ cows with one of our hired hands, probably age 50, when the dogs jumped out a mama with two cubs that were eating on a dead yearling (worth $500) down in Gun Creek which really isn’t far from Payson , as the crow flies. We had been losing quite a few calves in this area, & a mama with two weaned cubs will kill 2 or 3 per week. Well, the dogs treed the cubs, and mama bear ran a short way into brush & stopped—my older partner’s horse started bucking & going crazy, but as a youngster, I always got to ride the older, gentler horses & mine remained calm—the man did not even have a gun anyway. I had an old G.I. M-1, .30 cal. jungle –carbine, peep sights, with a 15 rnd. clip in it in a scabbard tied to my saddle—I had strict orders from Dad to kill bears, so I pulled it out (had already killed several deer & coyotes with it over the past few years), and plugged a 100 lb. cub out of that tree (still sitting on my horse) , he squalled as he fell dead to the ground—then all hell broke loose. HERE COMES MAMA, sounding like a Sherman tank crashing thru the brush to her cub’s rescue. I could not even see her til she broke out into the creek bed about 50 yds. Away. My partner was yelling “pop-it-to-her” repeatedly, she was in a full lope heading right for me & my horse, I yelled back, “wait till she gets closer!”—and stuff, two more jumps she would have been up in the saddle with me!! Fortunately, my horse remained calm & out of sheer ”too dumb-to-be scared” kid luck, bullet-proof stupidity, so did I—and at about 30 ft. squeezed off a round and by God’s good grace, she dropped dead on the spot! Talk about pelosi butt luck for me with that little 110gr. bullet, it went straight thru her heart. Quickly put two more into her head, shot the other yearling that was still up a tree, and the wreck was over. Dad chewed me out good later for letting a 350 lb. charging bear get that close to me, the hired hand told him the story---BUT, a month or so later on my BD, Dad handed me a brand new Model 94 that has now killed more big game than most people see in a lifetime, & thanked me for saving him a bunch more beef $ that day in Gun Creek—it is now comfortably retired in my gunsafe.

An excellent story, thank you very much for sharing.

[1972RedNeck]

I hope to never face a grizzly (or anything) that needs shot in self defense.

I have a lot of big bore revolvers and a couple rifles. I would have no problem using and of my 45 caliber firearms on the biggest of bears in a hunting situation.

But in a self defense situation, I wonder if a big boom stick is actually the best. Yes, if the bullet makes good contact, I would prefer a 405 grain hard cast at 2400 fps to most anything. But what if the first shot is a miss? The recoil takes a second to recover from, and then I have to work the lever and regain alignment.

Or would I be better off with a 9mm (or 40 S&W) that I can dump 20 rounds in a 6" plate at 10 yards as fast as I can pull the trigger? And then reload in seconds and dump another 30 rounds...

I like precision accuracy, but in a down and out self defense situation, I suspect spray and pray is better option...

[JimT]

I like precision accuracy, but in a down and out self defense situation, I suspect spray and pray is better option...

I don't believe that has proven true. Since the repeating firearm was invented there have been a number of recorded witnessed incidents of "close range interpersonal confrontations" where one side did the "spray and pray" thing and the other fired one or two well-aimed (or lucky) shots that end the confrontation.

[Grizz]

I hope to never face a grizzly (or anything) that needs shot in self defense.

I like precision accuracy, but in a down and out self defense situation, I suspect spray and pray is better option...

Depends. Alaska Guide Phil Shoemaker killed an attacking griz with a 9mm. But it was not by spraying bullets, it was by connecting with the heart with every shot.
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https://grizzlyskinsofalaska.com/about-us/
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One of the stories in one of the books mentioned recently was a guy who went to the outhouse armed with a 38 spcl. He disappeared and was never seen or heard from. Eventually a griz was dispached that had 5 .38 bullets trapped in the muscle around the face.

A bullet in the eye socket or in the ear canal would require a very cool shooter, but cns is the only actual off-switch.

You can blow the heart out of a bear and it can still kill you because of their slow metabolism, according to published reports.

Also, a griz can outrun a quarter horse, so when seconds count you don't have any left.

I think your analysis about a lever gun is correct, it's slower than semi-auto, which is why i have an ar pistol that shoots 50 Beowulf and has the stuff to break thru the bones from any direction.

In the spray scenario you could empty your pistol and still get killed if the bullets don't do something lethal to brer bear.

a human is an MRE to a bear, might rethink the scenario . . .

I knew someone who was deer hunting, blew a deer call, a bear disarmed him and ate him, just that fast. He probably never heard it coming, but the bear sat on him and ate his guts . . . I am never comfortable in the bear woods, especially packing out a gutted deer on my back . . .

regards,
grizz

[jeepnik]

Frankly, I think the ideal cartridge is the 5.56 NATO. From a belt fed weapon. Let's face it enough hits on target as fast as possible would likely be better that one or two 45-70's. Much higher probability that you will get a CNS strike.

[Shrapnel]

I shot a 7 foot grizzly when I was a kid when grizzlies were just another bear in Montana. It was killing livestock and I shot it between the eyes with a 25-35…

[Grizz]

I shot a 7 foot grizzly when I was a kid when grizzlies were just another bear in Montana. It was killing livestock and I shot it between the eyes with a 25-35…

that's a cool memory right there . . .

question is, what do you want in hand if he is sitting on you about to gut you ?

[JimT]

question is, what do you want in hand if he is sitting on you about to gut you ?

I would think a small handy .22 pistol to put myself out of misery before it gets really bad.

[Grizz]

question is, what do you want in hand if he is sitting on you about to gut you ?

I would think a small handy .22 pistol to put myself out of misery before it gets really bad.

agree. i have thought that the chest rig might make it possible to retrieve a gun regardless of which arm i was being dragged by . . .

[LeverGunner]

I shot a 7 foot grizzly when I was a kid when grizzlies were just another bear in Montana. It was killing livestock and I shot it between the eyes with a 25-35…

Awesome, thanks for sharing. Do you still have the gun? How far was ya and did it drop the bear?