Lighter springs are not always advised.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I bought a beautiful Marlin 94 Cowboy Limited in .45 Colt. It was likely used in cowboy action shooting as the action was slick, the sights were a little different and the trigger was amazing.

But I found out that it wasn’t reliable enough and it would occasionally fail to set off a WLP primer.

I suspect that it once had a one piece firing pin installed and it was probably more reliable than it was when I received it.

So I cleaned it up ant took a stone to it. I also installed a factory hammer spring.

I can’t tell the difference between the trigger pull before and after. But it will reliably set off any primer.

Better sear angles are almost always better than overly light springs that may compromise ignition.

[JimT]

Do you remember Terry Murbach's tests that proved and demonstrated lighter hammer springs can reduce velocity as well as reliability?

[Scott Tschirhart]

Now that you mention it Jim. I seem to recall that it caused vertical stringing which you would also expect with velocity variations.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I have a Redhawk that has done ignition problems and I spoke with Hamilton Bowen’s shop last week about it. I have a couple of heavy duty springs on the way.

[JimT]

Terry used a S&W revolver ... backed the mainspring screw out a little and fired a number of shots, chronographing them. Each time he backed it out the velocity dropped and all the other numbers changed until it got to the point of mis-firing.

Mic wrote me about what he had learned ...

In the day, when ballistics labs used manually fired universal receivers, every ballistician eventually got bored and, instead of gently pulling the lanyard until the hoop slipped off the spur on the rotating hammer (very similar to a Colt SAA hammer design, when it rotated far enough, the spur would not hold the lanyard loop and the hammer fell), they yanked the lanyard. Every time, when they did that, they noticed two things:

They recorded higher velocity
They recorded lower extreme spread and standard deviation in any long string of shots ...
Note also the testing that our late friend Terry did with revolvers where he tested progressively lighter striker springs and found progressively lower muzzle velocity.

Terry Murbach showed years ago that it is the hard whack that works the best. Primers that are hit harder light the powder better. He used a S&W revolver that had a leaf mainspring. He ran some loads through the chronograph with the spring set at full strength. Then he began lightening the spring tension. The lower the tension, the lower the velocities. After a certain point of lowering the spring tension you start getting misfires.


Mic had a lot more to say about how primers work. For those interested I would suggest getting his book on primers.

[GunnyMack]

Springs are the one thing I will NOT change. The original engineering said this need X so that's what to stick to.
Now polishing, cleaning internal surfaces to reduce friction im all for.
I don't like to touch sear surfaces unless it's a last resort, preferably i like to burnish sear/hammer before a stone is applied. Better yet buy aftermarket and install.
Worse yet, every time a guns internals are worked/swapped you have now opened yourself to some scumbag lawyer claiming you did this procedure to make it easier for you the defendant to shoot some perp.

[stretch]

Worse yet, every time a guns internals are worked/swapped you have now opened yourself to some scumbag lawyer claiming you did this procedure to make it easier for you the defendant to shoot some perp.

Okay, this is kind of a pet peeve of mine. No offense to you, Gunny Mack.

Can anyone show us ONE - just 1 - case of anyone who used a modified gun or ammunition LEGALLY for self-defense
since 1985 or so being sued or incarcerated for modifying their gun? Or for using hand-loaded
ammunition? Or modifying the grips? Or a holster? Back in the day, there MIGHT have been an argument
against hollow-point ammunition, but since law enforcement uses it all the time now, it's not unusual any
more. New Jersey might be the sole exception with HP ammo, because it's illegal to POSSESS it in the Garden State.
(Last I knew, $1,000 fine PER ROUND! ) I once drove through NJ with 500 22 HP rounds in the trunk just
to thumb my nose at 'em! I'm glad I wasn't rear-ended!

Anyway, how are they gonna know? Do they disassemble every gun used in self-defense and compare
it to a KNOWN AND DOCUMENTED original example of the same make and model? How are they going to
know you polished this or that internally in a revolver unless you tell them? Hi-Powers, for instance, used
a variety of springs over the 80+ years of production. Later ones used a stronger trigger spring to comply
with drop tests, and to allegedly be easier on the frame when using some surplus ammo. I replaced mine
with an original strength spring and upped the recoil spring one level. How are they gonna know that?
(Lots of designs lately have had the spring strengths increased to comply with ridiculous drop tests.)
Magazine disconnect removal they may or may not figure out, depending on the level of scrutiny. But still,
unless you're defending yourself in an Alec Baldwin-like scenario, the point is moot. How are they
gonna prove that it was YOU who modified the weapon if you bought it used unless you tell 'em?


Anyway, rant off. Not something I lose sleep over.

-Stretch

[Scott Tschirhart]

He had me at “scumbag lawyer”

[Sarge]

^ LMAO Scott

IIRC the Redhawk is powered by a single coil spring, which is best left alone. Insufficient firing pin protrusion is a common problem with their Redhawk series- although a GP100 was the first Ruger DA I owned, that suffered from it. I believe Hamilton Bowen makes, or did make an “extra-length” Ruger D/A firing pin, and installed it as a standard component of his Redhawk conversions.

Brownell’s will tell you industry standard firing pin protrusion on revolvers is .050-055 inches. The GP100 mentioned above measured .040-.045 and produced occasional light strikes with an OEM hammer spring. I replaced that spring with a new one, refitted the hammer nose and cleaned up some rough casting marks in the frame on the hammer side of the firing pin. Ignition went to 100% with good deep primer strikes, as fast as I could empty the revolver shooting DA.

It drives me nuts when a revolver, of all things, can't be trusted to fire.

[AJMD429]

.
Yeah I do like to keep springs 'original' - or if anything, install more robust ones, unless there have been enough others using the lighter ones who were concerned mostly with FUNCTION instead of speed or even accuracy (I guess if I had a gun just used for competition I'd feel differently).

I will de-burr, and so-on, although I'm still chicken to change any angles (but I'll use aftermarket parts that have a good reputation).

Things like the lever-holding spring in Marlin 1894's, or even the hammer spring on a Rossi 92, if done carefully per NKJ's instructions, I will do though, because those seem to be modifications that are time-tested and proven reliable.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Sarge,

This one is an older model and it has the pressed in firing pin bushing.

If the heavier springs don’t work, it may be time to replace the firing pin. But since it is 100 percent reliable when I cock the hammer and only occasionally has a light strike when I use the trigger cocking function…I think a heavier spring should do the trick.

My understanding is that the new Redhawks have a firing pin bushing that screws out from the hammer side, making them user serviceable.

[GunnyMack]

I knew the line would get you Scott, as you can imagine I did NOT mean you as though I don't know you I'm 100% certain you aren't an ambulance chaser.

My statement may or may not have come to light in any courtroom but it was advice from a few different instructors while attending the gunsmithing school back in the 90s. Point isit could open you to liability. Can any of us afford million dollar law suits? Will Scott defend us?

No I'm not saying I haven't done sear's, smoothed up, worked on etc but it's on MY guns, not somebody else's guns.

The last time I bought 40 short & weak here was 15 boxes of the black talon variety, in a gunship. Supposedly the WORST bullet ever made. Again 30 odd years ago.

[Scott Tschirhart]

It didn’t take Bowen long to fill my order.

[Streetstar]

He had me at “scumbag lawyer”

It’s okay - you’re one of the “good ones”

Had a contractor say that to me as he was loudly complaining about insurance adjusters recently

[Malamute]

Im not in favor of lightening springs for the most part unless they are too extreme. Factory level is generally best. Im continually surprised for some reason when I see people online mention they did an action job, when what they mean is they put a spring kit in something. Not the same thing. Cleaning up an action with mild to moderate slicking up of parts without going too far is the first step, and generally gets a much better feel without messing with springs, and isnt likely to compromise reliability.

The Miroku/Winchester 1873 had a rather wimpy feeling mainspring. I figured it was aimed at the cowboy action market. I wanted more spring, so started looking for parts to up the spring force. It seems most people want soft springs, though in looking at several discussions on the subject, someone mentioned the mainspring tension screw. I had assumed for some reason Miroku/Winchester had made them with coil springs like the 86s and 92s, but no, they have old style flat springs. I checked the tension screw on mine, it was a hair over half a turn out from the factory. I seated it in all the way and the hammer feel is much better, noticeably stronger hammer strike and cocking force.

Uberti Colt copies seem to be known for weak mainsprings, Starline brass mentions it on their site, and its come up in online discussions. I was looking around the Colt forum hoping to perhaps find someone that had swapped to softer springs and might sell a factory Colt spring, Somewhere in that search it came up about tweeking or bending springs. Ive watched a well regarded gunsmith that did action pistol work in the past tweeking S&W mainsprings to get the feel he wanted, he used a plastic wedge I believe, back and force a bit until he was satisfied. I took the backstrap off, removed the mainspring and installed it behind the hammer. Clamped the spring to the front strap so it didnt bend at the screw and bent it back about 1/4". It then gave a stronger hammer pull and fall, Im satisfied with it now. Some had been installing two factory uberti springs on their guns to get an acceptable hammer spring weight. It didnt seem necessary after adjusting the spring some.

A note on the "show me a court case that was decided by gun/ammo factors...". Ive seen discussions that involved lawyers and prosecutors, the general consensus is no, youre never going to see such a thing, because its never mentioned in the case notes as a deciding factor. There is the very real effect of influencing a jury by things put in an unfavorable light, even if its not technically illegal, it can still influence the outcome negatively. One example is a defendant dressing like a slob and acting contemptuously towards the court, vs someone dressed well, acting respectful. There will not be any reference about it, nothing ever said, but the details can certainly influence jurors. One may also get off on a charge, but having to deal with it either at all, or spend serious money to get people to try to reduce the influence on a jury because of things one has chosen to do and its capitalized on by the prosecution can break you financially. Yeah, you won, great. But you may have also caused it to be harder to get clear of.

[stretch]

There is the very real effect of influencing a jury by things put in an unfavorable light, even if its not technically illegal, it can still influence the outcome negatively.

I get that, Malamute. Having spent some time in court, I'm well aware of presenting oneself well;
shirt and tie, "Yessir,", "Nosir," and all of that. These things are clearly observed, and while not admissible, can
certainly color a jury's or judge's opinion. And if things come down to a razor-thin margin, that CAN make a
difference.

How is the prosecution or a jury to know that a spring was changed, or the internals of a revolver were polished if they aren't told?

No one's gonna know unless the gun is disassembled. Might make a difference in an accidental discharge case where
the gun is taken apart to see if it's defective. Barring that, the judge and jury will never, ever know. That last sentence
is my point!

I found the discussion about velocity related to mainspring strength very interesting. It's also sometimes nothing short
of amazing what polishing/deburring a few things can do to smooth an action. I'm always wicked nervous about fiddling
with sears or hammers where they intersect because I just don't feel that I know enough about the subtleties there. Obvious
burrs and REALLY rough surfaces are one thing - stoning things to a mirror polish with the EXACT correct geometry is a
little nerve-wracking for me at this stage, though!

-Stretch

[LeverGunner]

Glad that you got it straightened out Scott.

Jim, thanks for sharing, I didn't know that about lightening the hammer pull vs velocity.

[Scott Tschirhart]

It isn’t straightened out yet.

I put the 40 pound spring in and it’s a little too much of a good thing.

I’ll bet it will pop caps but it’s quite a bit heavier trigger. Such that it won’t likely be easy to shoot.

I’ll try it out today and see.

I need to work out the Marlin today as well. That trigger didn’t change noticeably but the hammer falls with much more authority.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Follow up. No more light primer strikes in either gun. But the trigger on the Ruger is……..challenging.

[JB]

Worse yet, every time a guns internals are worked/swapped you have now opened yourself to some scumbag lawyer claiming you did this procedure to make it easier for you the defendant to shoot some perp.

Okay, this is kind of a pet peeve of mine. No offense to you, Gunny Mack.

Can anyone show us ONE - just 1 - case of anyone who used a modified gun or ammunition LEGALLY for self-defense
since 1985 or so being sued or incarcerated for modifying their gun? Or for using hand-loaded
ammunition? Or modifying the grips? Or a holster? Back in the day, there MIGHT have been an argument
against hollow-point ammunition, but since law enforcement uses it all the time now, it's not unusual any
more. New Jersey might be the sole exception with HP ammo, because it's illegal to POSSESS it in the Garden State.
(Last I knew, $1,000 fine PER ROUND! ) I once drove through NJ with 500 22 HP rounds in the trunk just
to thumb my nose at 'em! I'm glad I wasn't rear-ended!

Anyway, how are they gonna know? Do they disassemble every gun used in self-defense and compare
it to a KNOWN AND DOCUMENTED original example of the same make and model? How are they going to
know you polished this or that internally in a revolver unless you tell them? Hi-Powers, for instance, used
a variety of springs over the 80+ years of production. Later ones used a stronger trigger spring to comply
with drop tests, and to allegedly be easier on the frame when using some surplus ammo. I replaced mine
with an original strength spring and upped the recoil spring one level. How are they gonna know that?
(Lots of designs lately have had the spring strengths increased to comply with ridiculous drop tests.)
Magazine disconnect removal they may or may not figure out, depending on the level of scrutiny. But still,
unless you're defending yourself in an Alec Baldwin-like scenario, the point is moot. How are they
gonna prove that it was YOU who modified the weapon if you bought it used unless you tell 'em?


Anyway, rant off. Not something I lose sleep over.

-Stretch

I've put those into the "don't use handloads for self defense" advise. One well gun writer/expert witness with a terrible toupee keeps writing that, but I'm not sure anyone has ever been convicted based on it.

[Ysabel Kid]

Terry used a S&W revolver ... backed the mainspring screw out a little and fired a number of shots, chronographing them. Each time he backed it out the velocity dropped and all the other numbers changed until it got to the point of mis-firing.

Mic wrote me about what he had learned ...

In the day, when ballistics labs used manually fired universal receivers, every ballistician eventually got bored and, instead of gently pulling the lanyard until the hoop slipped off the spur on the rotating hammer (very similar to a Colt SAA hammer design, when it rotated far enough, the spur would not hold the lanyard loop and the hammer fell), they yanked the lanyard. Every time, when they did that, they noticed two things:

They recorded higher velocity
They recorded lower extreme spread and standard deviation in any long string of shots ...
Note also the testing that our late friend Terry did with revolvers where he tested progressively lighter striker springs and found progressively lower muzzle velocity.

Terry Murbach showed years ago that it is the hard whack that works the best. Primers that are hit harder light the powder better. He used a S&W revolver that had a leaf mainspring. He ran some loads through the chronograph with the spring set at full strength. Then he began lightening the spring tension. The lower the tension, the lower the velocities. After a certain point of lowering the spring tension you start getting misfires.


Mic had a lot more to say about how primers work. For those interested I would suggest getting his book on primers.

Fascinating information here, Jim. Thanks for sharing!

[Scott Tschirhart]

I don’t know for sure but it appears that the Marlin is grouping better with the heavier spring.

Perhaps because ignition is more consistent?

[LeverGunner]

More consistent ignition and faster lock time.