Mono bullets or jacketed bullets and original...

[Nath]

... Springfield trapdoors?

Someone said they would not use anything other than lead in original barrels BECAUSE of the soft steel.
Really???
Is it softer than copper or copper alloys?

What say ye all?

N.

[Hawkeye2]

If it were a very collectable gun or one with a mint bore I would go with pure lead and a good lube (SPG). For anything somewhat less than that I use dug range lead which seems to run between Brinell 7 and 9. Actually the harder lead probably wouldn't hurt at all, it's just that I can't bring myself to do it. Cast bullets only for me though a lead core copper jacketed bullet probably wouldn't contribute much to the wear if used on a limited basis.

Trapdoors are a lot of fun and there is a lot of data out there for smokeless loads that are very safe in them. I was shooting my '84 at a cowboy shoot (48 grains 3f, 340 grain bullet) a few years back and everyone seemed amazed that I was shooting an original. I tried to explain that one could buy an original for a lot less than a Pedersoli and have a better gun too but I'm not sure everyone got the message.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I might not use a brass monolithic in it or anything with a tungsten core, but I would think lead or copper jacketed lead would yield to the steel and form fit the bore. Obturate, as they say.

[Walt]

It's no secret that Schuetzenfest rifles used in this almost 200 year old competition to this day use lead bullets. These fine target rifles were manufactured before the advent of heat-treated steels. There's no doubt in my mind that cast bullets cause less wear to barrels than any copper or gilding metal bullets.

I'm betting that Marlinman would never shoot anything but lead bullets in his old rifles.

[CowboyTutt]

I've heard something similar about my 71/84 Mauser. It was made in 1888 and I've been warned from even using jacketed bullets, much less monolithic bullets, even soft ones like Hawk Bullets which are pure lead and have softened jackets. I'm not sure how the German steel and American steel compare for the time period. -Tutt

[Nath]

Thanks fellers.
So how come there are no accounts headed "Hey, I shot my Springfield barrel out using jacketed bullets" anywhere??

[GunnyMack]

Thanks fellers.
So how come there are no accounts headed "Hey, I shot my Springfield barrel out using jacketed bullets" anywhere??

Probably because they stay true to history and only shoot lead.
The jacket came about due to new fangled smokeless, lead couldn't/ didn't make the trip so the high pressure loads need a "tougher " bullet.
Look at the early Barnes bullets, they left lots of copper in bores, it had no where to go on a solid hunk of copper. Now most if not all have relief grooves so the copper can displace as it travels down the bore.
As for" softer" steel, it is still much tougher than copper and lead. It's the pressure that will cause a soft barrel to come apart.
Look at the early twist barrels, hammer forged and they were just fine with black powder but it will not with high pressure smokeless.

[Walt]

Nath, if you look at the ultra precision rifles used in class F shooting, you will see that many barrels are shot out in as few as 2000 to 5000 rounds. Admittedly a part of that is due to high temp flame or gas erosion.

[Nath]

Yes gentlemen, I know all the above.

What I don't know of is actual evidence that using non mono lead bullets does indeed damage early steel barrels!

Some folk would say don't use copper washed 22 ammo in yer target rifle. It's an old wives tale.

Some say you can only use 4f as pan powder, another false yarn.

Is this another one of these tales?

Lead bullets can indeed be used with smokeless powders.
It's when you start to get beyond a certain pressure trying for more velocity you have to become creative.
Harder lead alloys, improved lubricant, firewalls, grease cookies, gas checks etc.

I guess there is no evidence, and no need to find out.
I bet someone somewhere knows the truth of the matter, because I bet it's been done.

[Walt]

Nath, I was interested in your question so I turned to the Lyman 50th Edition reloading manual. It does in fact list a 300 grain, a 350 and a 400 grain jacketed bullet for 1873 Springfield Trapdoors, however in the text preceeding the loading tables it states, "The exclusive use of cast bullets is recommended for the older, original rifles.".

[Griff]

Thanks fellers.
So how come there are no accounts headed "Hey, I shot my Springfield barrel out using jacketed bullets" anywhere??

I'm going to guess that, probably... you don't see that because most folks don't like to publicly announce their idiocy! Lyman states in their reloading handbook, "The exclusive use of cast bullets is recommended for the older, original rifles." Their following line seems to align this recommendation that variations in the groove diameters of the older original bores and the need to size cast bullets accordings. And while this may be sole reason for their recommendation, I've always surmised that from looking at various loadings of the same powder and bullet weights where jacketed rounds achieve lower velocities. I took that to indicate a nominally higher friction in jacketed rounds would induce more wear in the barrel. Yet with modern, nickel/steel & other alloys the same velocity differentials are present, but the wear is not a concern. Probably wrong assumptions on my part, but, seems to indicate that some old homilies can still hold water.

[Nath]

Thanks fellers.
So how come there are no accounts headed "Hey, I shot my Springfield barrel out using jacketed bullets" anywhere??

I'm going to guess that, probably... you don't see that because most folks don't like to publicly announce their idiocy! Lyman states in their reloading handbook, "The exclusive use of cast bullets is recommended for the older, original rifles." Their following line seems to align this recommendation that variations in the groove diameters of the older original bores and the need to size cast bullets accordings. And while this may be sole reason for their recommendation, I've always surmised that from looking at various loadings of the same powder and bullet weights where jacketed rounds achieve lower velocities. I took that to indicate a nominally higher friction in jacketed rounds would induce more wear in the barrel. Yet with modern, nickel/steel & other alloys the same velocity differentials are present, but the wear is not a concern. Probably wrong assumptions on my part, but, seems to indicate that some old homilies can still hold water.

Your comment regarding bore variations in original old barrels makes the most sense to me why not to use other than a lead bullets.
Thanks.
That is until one checked out within spec for an off the shelf bullet....

[Nath]

Nath, I was interested in your question so I turned to the Lyman 50th Edition reloading manual. It does in fact list a 300 grain, a 350 and a 400 grain jacketed bullet for 1873 Springfield Trapdoors, however in the text preceeding the loading tables it states, "The exclusive use of cast bullets is recommended for the older, original rifles.".

Interesting, so do they mean just use in reproduction rifles?

[Ray Newman]

Back-In-The-Last-Century I hunted and shot with a Fellow Shooter who had a Springfield M1873 Cadet Rifle. Not being a caster, he fired Remington 300g JHP and 405g Soft Points at Lyman recommended loads for original M1873 rifles. John claimed that after about 3 years of shooting, accuracy started to "go off" and the throat showed noticeable wear/erosion. He had no idea how many jacketed rounds fired.

I later asked the local firearms emporium owner and his gunsmith about shooting jacketed bullets in the M1873 Springfield. Both said they had seen bore and throat erosion from shooters shooting jacketed bullets in the old Springfield. Both claimed that when shooting older/original rifles designed/barrelled for lead bullets, lead is best for the bore.

[Nath]

Back-In-The-Last-Century I hunted and shot with a Fellow Shooter who had a Springfield M1873 Cadet Rifle. Not being a caster, he fired Remington 300g JHP and 405g Soft Points at Lyman recommended loads for original M1873 rifles. John claimed that after about 3 years of shooting, accuracy started to "go off" and the throat showed noticeable wear/erosion. He had no idea how many jacketed rounds fired.

I later asked the local firearms emporium owner and his gunsmith about shooting jacketed bullets in the M1873 Springfield. Both said they had seen bore and throat erosion from shooters shooting jacketed bullets in the old Springfield. Both claimed that when shooting older/original rifles designed/barrelled for lead bullets, lead is best for the bore.

That's just the info/account I was seeking.
Thanks

[Grizz]

now you tell me. I shot my 1895 Chilean 7x57 Mauser with modern ammo in it. Mom could hit with it shooting off the bow of my boat. I guess it's an actual wall hanger now. Looks good with the bayonet attached. Where was the internet when I needed it?

manuf. Loewe Berlin

better fit and finish than many some guns.. . . . kind of a mind boggler. Oh Yeah, PLUS I ordered it with a phone call and it was mailed to my P.O. Box in secret cove. maybe the last act of freedom available at that time.

grizz

[Ray Newman]

"now you tell me. I shot my 1895 Chilean 7x57 Mauser with modern ammo in it."
--Grizz

Wasn't the 7x57 Mauser designed as a smokeless cartridge firing a full metal patched/jacketed bullet from the 'get go'??

In one of my single shot rifle books, there was a reference to one Pope's barrels or to the rifle Pope himself shot and the amount of wear. If I recall correctly, the barrel dimensions were stamped on the underside of the barrel and years later the barrel was slugged.Slug measurement showed minimal barrel wear from lead bullets.

Some interesting information here:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showth ... -big-doubt

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial ... els/367671

[Nath]

"now you tell me. I shot my 1895 Chilean 7x57 Mauser with modern ammo in it."
--Grizz

Wasn't the 7x57 Mauser designed as a smokeless cartridge firing a full metal patched/jacketed bullet from the 'get go'??

In one of my single shot rifle books, there was a reference to one Pope's barrels or to the rifle Pope himself shot and the amount of wear. If I recall correctly, the barrel dimensions were stamped on the underside of the barrel and years later the barrel was slugged.Slug measurement showed minimal barrel wear from lead bullets.

Some interesting information here:

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showth ... -big-doubt

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial ... els/367671

Enjoyed that, thank you

[AJMD429]

.
I wonder how copper plated bullets would be…?

[Grizz]

Wasn't the 7x57 Mauser designed as a smokeless cartridge firing a full metal patched/jacketed bullet from the 'get go'??

_002.jpeg

I have no idea about the get go. But about barrel wear, I think lead bullets are self lubricating in a way, but maybe not. One article said lead is more malleable than copper, maybe that eases its passage. The info that Pope rounded the edges of the lands is a mystery... I didn't see what his velocities were.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/conten ... mm-mauser/ good article

grizz