Winchester 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine Argentinian

[tdg1x07]

Hi all,

Just bought a rifle that I'm looking to gather some information on, mostly value. Got it at an auction. In pretty decent shape. Stock has a few scratches and dings and some use marks, but is marked Argentinian police, .45 caliber. It has two barrels, both marked winchester. The one currently on it is a .44 WCF, but it does have the .45 LC barrel with it as well. Trying to find any information on the value of these guns, but they appear to be pretty rare birds. I have found a bit of info regarding their history, but I'm still no expert, obviously.

Thanks for any help!

[gamekeeper]

Welcome to the fire, interesting question .... I'm sure someone here will know but photos will help.

[AJMD429]

.
Wow it definitely sounds like an interesting gun. I'm sure some of the folks on here will know a lot about them.

[tdg1x07]

So, little more information on it. Currently has a Numrich .44 WCF barrel on it, but it also came with the "original" 16" .45 LC barrel that was modified for the Argentinian police. Stock is in pretty good shape. Has the cool ladder sites. Metal is all pretty decent. Looks to me like it might have been reblued while in possession of the police department, but there is some pretty cool patina there. Trying to get an estimate on the value of this thing as I can't find a single one for sale here in the U.S.

[Pat C]

Didn't Century import these ? I've seen them for sale
Just cannot remember for sure.

[Mike Armstrong]

As I understand it, the story when these were first imported was that some police agency converted '92s that they already had to fire the .45 ACP Colt and Ballester-Molina sidearms they were adopting. I've always wondered how they got a '92 to feed a rimless ctg. reliably...does yours?

What are the markings on your carbine? They should show which LEA it was used by. I think I see the marking in your pic, but can't read it thru my computer illiteracy glasses. I think I see "Santa Fe," which could either be a US arms import/export firm or one of the Argentine provinces or cities.

[tdg1x07]

Argentina police markings

[Pat C]

If I had to guess Michael (twobit) who has the 1892 survey going on will probably know the scoop. I remember reading a little and had even saved a few pictures on an old computer . But honestly didn't interest me enough that I remember exactly.
He is a member here , WACA , Gunboards, I would contact him .
As far as value ,I would say it would be with someone specifically looking for one . I really don't think there will be a high value.Especially with the numrich barrel.

Ill see If I can get a hold of him on Gunboards ,send him this way.

[Pat C]

Sent Michael twobit a message ,I'm sure he has info that will help. The value in this piece is in how it was in the Argentina Police .

[Mike Armstrong]

Provincial Police of Santa Fe Province. The term "reformado" usually means "modified," which I presume refers to the rebarreling to .45 ACP.

I've seen ArgentineBallester-Molina .45 auto pistols that were also issued to this LEA (basically an Argentine modification of the Spanish Star modification of a 1911AI Colt made by the Argentine national firm HAFDASA. Follow that?) DON'T fall for the old myth that these pistols were made from steel from a scuttled Nazi pocket battleship, and then sold to the British SOE special forces. Only that last bit is true-- most of these pistols were issued to Argentine police and military forces, not sold to Britain. They're made of Argentine steel.

[Hawkeye2]

As I understand it, the story when these were first imported was that some police agency converted '92s that they already had to fire the .45 ACP Colt and Ballester-Molina sidearms they were adopting. I've always wondered how they got a '92 to feed a rimless ctg. reliably...does yours?

What are the markings on your carbine? They should show which LEA it was used by. I think I see the marking in your pic, but can't read it thru my computer illiteracy glasses. I think I see "Santa Fe," which could either be a US arms import/export firm or one of the Argentine provinces or cities.

The OP's rifle is chambered in .45 Colt, not .45ACP. The 92 action handles the rimmed .45 Colt without problem.

[Pat C]

Michael twobit said he would stop by tomorrow with more info.

[Mike Armstrong]

If it was chambered for .45 Colt (not ACP) in Argentina, then there's a whole story there that I never heard about, but would really like to!

For example, why would the Argentines chamber for a cartridge that they never, to my knowledge, used as a service cartridge? Or did they use it and I just never heard about it in the Colt histories I've read? It's not impossible that is so and if it is, I'd sure like the details!

Or did an importer or US gunsmith take an Argentine carbine previously "reformado" to .45 ACP and rechamber it to an existing cartridge that is more "92-friendly" as we all know?

Does the OP have information that the Argentines used .45 Colt handguns and/or rechambered their .44 WCF guns to .45 Colt, not ACP? Or was this a Numrich's project, having little to do with Argentina except that they had a bunch of discarded Argentine police '92s and an endless supply of .45 barrel blanks (they did, I know that--some of them got made into 1917 Colt "Buntline" barrels that were sold in magazine ads, if I remember correctly).

Many mysteries! Interesting post!

[tdg1x07]

I've been doing a lot of reading about these over the past few days. Not sure what's been confirmed as truth vs. speculation. If I remember right, they were converted to. 45 because .44 WCF was very difficult to find in South America at one time, and ammo was interchangeable between this and their police pistols.

Not sure who did the conversions, but it doesn't seem to be numrich. Looks like it was a department decision, but I dont believe they came from colt in this configuration, obviously. Pretty interesting rifle, and ive seen almost no other ones in the states. The UK seems to have more and the last ones I saw sell over there I believe were in the $1300 range, but not sure how different the markets are over there. Seems like higher supply over there, and also, I think the last one I saw sell had actually been decommissioned, but can't confirm that. So, value is still a complete mystery to me.

[Pat C]

Here is a 2020 auction for one ,estimated value was $400-$600 , sold for $1188 with buyers premium.

https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/mexic ... rc-4014916

[AmBraCol]

I've been doing a lot of reading about these over the past few days. Not sure what's been confirmed as truth vs. speculation. If I remember right, they were converted to. 45 because .44 WCF was very difficult to find in South America at one time, and ammo was interchangeable between this and their police pistols.

Not sure who did the conversions, but it doesn't seem to be numrich. Looks like it was a department decision, but I dont believe they came from colt in this configuration, obviously. Pretty interesting rifle, and ive seen almost no other ones in the states. The UK seems to have more and the last ones I saw sell over there I believe were in the $1300 range, but not sure how different the markets are over there. Seems like higher supply over there, and also, I think the last one I saw sell had actually been decommissioned, but can't confirm that. So, value is still a complete mystery to me.

In my experience, it's the opposite. The 44 WCF was VERY common, especially up north in Brazil. It was THE Winchester cartridge in the "Papo Amarelo" (Winchester '73) and in the '92 (for some reason I'm drawing a blank on the common term used to describe the '92). Now there IS a national boundary line between the two countries, but CBC was very active in producing and selling the 44 WCF.

A simple question - have you actually chambered a 45 Colt cartridge in the rifle, or are you going by someone's description of it? It may be that prior owners assumed it's in 45 Colt due to the more or less common Rossi rifles in that chambering. It is intriguing, in either chambering. A 45 ACP '92 Winchester would be a real hoot if it'd run well.

[tdg1x07]

Perfect! Thank you for that. I'm trying to gather some real-world data regarding what they sell for, so that is very helpful.

As far as chambering rounds, barrel is marked .45 LC and I do not have any laying around. The barrel currently on it is the .44 WCF barrel. That being said, I can at least check and see if the chamber works with a long colt round if I can find one. If it is .45 ACP, I can see this gun being a ton of fun. That being said, I'll likely end up either trading it or selling it. Spring is almost here and I'm itching to get back on another motorcycle.

[tdg1x07]

I've been doing a lot of reading about these over the past few days. Not sure what's been confirmed as truth vs. speculation. If I remember right, they were converted to. 45 because .44 WCF was very difficult to find in South America at one time, and ammo was interchangeable between this and their police pistols.

Not sure who did the conversions, but it doesn't seem to be numrich. Looks like it was a department decision, but I dont believe they came from colt in this configuration, obviously. Pretty interesting rifle, and ive seen almost no other ones in the states. The UK seems to have more and the last ones I saw sell over there I believe were in the $1300 range, but not sure how different the markets are over there. Seems like higher supply over there, and also, I think the last one I saw sell had actually been decommissioned, but can't confirm that. So, value is still a complete mystery to me.

In my experience, it's the opposite. The 44 WCF was VERY common, especially up north in Brazil. It was THE Winchester cartridge in the "Papo Amarelo" (Winchester '73) and in the '92 (for some reason I'm drawing a blank on the common term used to describe the '92). Now there IS a national boundary line between the two countries, but CBC was very active in producing and selling the 44 WCF.

A simple question - have you actually chambered a 45 Colt cartridge in the rifle, or are you going by someone's description of it? It may be that prior owners assumed it's in 45 Colt due to the more or less common Rossi rifles in that chambering. It is intriguing, in either chambering. A 45 ACP '92 Winchester would be a real hoot if it'd run well.

Could be. I'm just going by what I read online in a forum specific to these rifles. They mentioned that for a certain time frame .44 WCF dried up because none was being imported and .45 was what the police wanted these in, in order to share ammo with their handguns. But who knows.

Barrel is marked .45LC. I have no idea if it will chamber .45 LC or if it's meant for .45ACP. I haven't messed with it too much and that barrel isn't currently on the gun, though I do have it. I'd assume that it's for the .45 ACP based on what I'm finding online, but haven't verified it. Should be a fun gun regardless.

[AmBraCol]

Interesting. Curious about that "45 LC" marking as it doesn't sound very Argentinian. You've definitely cornered yourself an enigma with this one! Just a wild guess - perhaps the importer reamed out the chamber to 45 Colt, figuring it'd sell better in the US market. But the 44 WCF barrel that's on it is more in line with original chamberings. Do you have any idea what time frame the serial number indicates?

[tdg1x07]

Pretty much everything I'm seeing online indicates that the barrels were all marked .45 LC but are actually .45 ACP. Looks like it was a custom job specifically for the police departments upon importation of the rifles into Argentina. From what I'm seeing, they were sent from Argentina to the US with the .45 barrel. There's quite a few available on the European market, but many have been decommissioned.

My guess is that the PO of this rifle somehow got ahold of it, (I see no import markings whatsoever), and then bought a .44 WCF barrel and had it installed just to have it closer to original Winchester configuration. That being said, I think it's way cooler as a .45 ACP and if I decided to keep it, I would switch barrels for sure. Both barrels are in really nice shape, and this would be a hell of a fun gun in .45ACP. From a utilitarian standpoint, this is really one of the most practical rifles I can think of. Tiny, light carbine in an available ammo type. Also, a legitimate Winchester, more or less, with a pretty interesting history. This little rifle is growing on me a bit, but I really don't need another rifle in a caliber I don't already own. (Sold all my .45 ACPs years ago in favor of 10mm)

Thanks

[tdg1x07]

Also, yes, rifle was manufactured in 1919 from what I'm seeing.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I had one of these guns here for repair. I have some pictures, but I need to re-size. Do you have a picture of the action inside? If it was converted to 4acp the 44-40 barrel won't work. You would also need the internal parts too.

About the 45LC markings. That is not 45long colt. That 45LC down there signified 45 Latin Cartridge. Because they were using 45acp semi auto pistol they wanted a rifle in the same cal.
Best I can tell is these were converted down in Argentina for Rubber plantation police forces.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

[AmBraCol]

The plot thickens...

[tdg1x07]

Nate,

Thanks so much for posting those. That's super helpful. I'll get a photo of mine this evening so we can determine what it's set up to shoot. Which of the parts belonged to the .45 ACP? Longer or shorter arms? (sorry, I'm not sure what those parts are actually called.)

[tdg1x07]

I had one of these guns here for repair. I have some pictures, but I need to re-size. Do you have a picture of the action inside? If it was converted to 4acp the 44-40 barrel won't work. You would also need the internal parts too.

About the 45LC markings. That is not 45long colt. That 45LC down there signified 45 Latin Cartridge. Because they were using 45acp semi auto pistol they wanted a rifle in the same cal.
Best I can tell is these were converted down in Argentina for Rubber plantation police forces.

Just realized I forgot to reply to your specific message. Please see above post I made. Thanks again!

[twobit]

I had one of these guns here for repair. I have some pictures, but I need to re-size. Do you have a picture of the action inside? If it was converted to 4acp the 44-40 barrel won't work. You would also need the internal parts too.

About the 45LC markings. That is not 45long colt. That 45LC down there signified 45 Latin Cartridge. Because they were using 45acp semi auto pistol they wanted a rifle in the same cal.
Best I can tell is these were converted down in Argentina for Rubber plantation police forces.

I have been working on a research survey of the entire production span of the 1892 rifles and have seen almost two dozen (21) of similarly marked "Policia" rifles in the past 10 years. When I eventually get around to putting together a website which synthesizes all I have learned these marked rifles will definitely be in a section related t0 groupings of specially marked guns. AND hopefully I will be able to wade through all the speculation and "I heard from someone" sort of comments and put together reliable information about them. I am working on contacting serious Winchester collectors in Argentina who may be of help to me in deciphering this. I am actually in the process of mining the info which I do now have on each rifle and putting it into a distinct page within my Excel spreadsheet so I can look for common details among the rifle which may help understand them. The serial number range is from 143098 to 996101 so these were obviously NOT a single purchase from Winchester.

Regarding what was entailed to convert the rifles from 44 WCF to 45 ACP I do have this translated from Spanish account: "provides the technical requirements for the Winchester Model 1892 Carbine, whose reform it should have.

Increased the 10.85mm gauge to a minimum of 11.25 and a maximum of 11.30 for the tip of the flute and a minimum of 11.43 and a maximum of 11.46 for the bottom of the flute (but not in all the processed copies, as we will see).

An additional spherical cylindrical pusher was placed in the tubular tank; the elevator and the projection of the cartridge guide on the right side were shortened; the mouth of the breech widened; the hole through which the hammer slides was lengthened by eight tenths of a millimeter; the inner face of the extractor nail was retouched; The ejector was removed, which is on the left side, shortened and curved inwards. On the barrel, behind the clamp. At the front, a large annular sight cover was slipped on. On the right side of the frame the inscriptions were marked: "Police of the Province of Santa Fé caliber .45, modified OTME de Córdoba (Argentine Republic)»."

To those who have posted in this thread and may have one of these marked rifles PLEASE contact me at 2bitrifles@gmail.com so that I may get more information about your rifle and add it into my database. I will add more information to this thread as I create it from my data.

Michael

[tdg1x07]

Here's a few more photos. Thanks for the help thus far.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I had one of these guns here for repair. I have some pictures, but I need to re-size. Do you have a picture of the action inside? If it was converted to 4acp the 44-40 barrel won't work. You would also need the internal parts too........................................

Regarding what was entailed to convert the rifles from 44 WCF to 45 ACP I do have this translated from Spanish account: "provides the technical requirements for the Winchester Model 1892 Carbine, whose reform it should have.

Increased the 10.85mm gauge to a minimum of 11.25 and a maximum of 11.30 for the tip of the flute and a minimum of 11.43 and a maximum of 11.46 for the bottom of the flute (but not in all the processed copies, as we will see).

An additional spherical cylindrical pusher was placed in the tubular tank; the elevator and the projection of the cartridge guide on the right side were shortened; the mouth of the breech widened; the hole through which the hammer slides was lengthened by eight tenths of a millimeter; the inner face of the extractor nail was retouched; The ejector was removed, which is on the left side, shortened and curved inwards. On the barrel, behind the clamp. At the front, a large annular sight cover was slipped on. On the right side of the frame the inscriptions were marked: "Police of the Province of Santa Fé caliber .45, modified OTME de Córdoba (Argentine Republic)»."

To those who have posted in this thread and may have one of these marked rifles PLEASE contact me at 2bitrifles@gmail.com so that I may get more information about your rifle and add it into my database. I will add more information to this thread as I create it from my data.

Michael

In the pictures I provided the shortened parts are the 45acp parts. Looking at your pics it appears to be converted so the 44-40 barrel won't work without going back to the original style action parts.

Michael,
Good work, but some of the mods aren't correct. Might be translation issues??? for instance, the spherical cylindrical pusher is I suppose is the mag tube follower. It wasn't added, it was replaced by a longer one. My last picture.
The ejector was not removed. The part they described is the left side cart stop. It is the fifth picture down on the left shown beside a full length left guide and stop assem.

[tdg1x07]

I had one of these guns here for repair. I have some pictures, but I need to re-size. Do you have a picture of the action inside? If it was converted to 4acp the 44-40 barrel won't work. You would also need the internal parts too........................................

Regarding what was entailed to convert the rifles from 44 WCF to 45 ACP I do have this translated from Spanish account: "provides the technical requirements for the Winchester Model 1892 Carbine, whose reform it should have.

Increased the 10.85mm gauge to a minimum of 11.25 and a maximum of 11.30 for the tip of the flute and a minimum of 11.43 and a maximum of 11.46 for the bottom of the flute (but not in all the processed copies, as we will see).

An additional spherical cylindrical pusher was placed in the tubular tank; the elevator and the projection of the cartridge guide on the right side were shortened; the mouth of the breech widened; the hole through which the hammer slides was lengthened by eight tenths of a millimeter; the inner face of the extractor nail was retouched; The ejector was removed, which is on the left side, shortened and curved inwards. On the barrel, behind the clamp. At the front, a large annular sight cover was slipped on. On the right side of the frame the inscriptions were marked: "Police of the Province of Santa Fé caliber .45, modified OTME de Córdoba (Argentine Republic)»."

To those who have posted in this thread and may have one of these marked rifles PLEASE contact me at 2bitrifles@gmail.com so that I may get more information about your rifle and add it into my database. I will add more information to this thread as I create it from my data.

Michael

In the pictures I provided the shortened parts are the 45acp parts. Looking at your pics it appears to be converted so the 44-40 barrel won't work without going back to the original style action parts.

Michael,
Good work, but some of the mods aren't correct. Might be translation issues??? for instance, the spherical cylindrical pusher is I suppose is the mag tube follower. It wasn't added, it was replaced by a longer one. My last picture.
The ejector was not removed. The part they described is the left side cart stop. It is the fifth picture down on the left shown beside a full length left guide and stop assem.

Perfect. Thanks again for your help.

[twobit]

Seve,

Can you comment on how the muzzle end of the barrel was altered on these rifles?

Michael

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Seve,

Can you comment on how the muzzle end of the barrel was altered on these rifles?

Michael

Well, it would mostly be a SWAG but they did set the mag tube back deeper into the receiver to comp for the shorter acp round. So, the barrel band had to move back as well. The guessing part is because the taper the band was tight going back so the turned the barrel and even moved the front sight



Seems like it would have been easier to just ream that band some. Didn't make a lot of sense to me.

[twobit]

Seve,

Can you comment on how the muzzle end of the barrel was altered on these rifles?

Michael

Well, it would mostly be a SWAG but they did set the mag tube back deeper into the receiver to comp for the shorter acp round. So, the barrel band had to move back as well. The guessing part is because the taper the band was tight going back so the turned the barrel and even moved the front sight



Seems like it would have been easier to just ream that band some. Didn't make a lot of sense to me.

Good morning Steve,

Thanks again for your input. I had pretty much figured out that the front sight had to also be moved since the position of it relative to the muzzle was not "original." Cutting off the last 4 inches of the barrel would necessitate that also. Thanks for the image also.

Michael