Win 1886 Throat... how long should it be?

[Old Ironsights]

Arrgh

Looky this:



Boolit #1, Lyman 457122, 3ww/1pb alloy. Sized .457, Seated to crimp groove. COAL 2.555. This feeds slicker than snot and is my "go to" load. Dia in front of front driving band (.060?) is .445.

Boolit #2, LBT .458 450 LFNGC, heat treated WW, sized .459. Seated to crimp groove. Pre chambering COAL 2.48 post chambering COAL 2.4695
Note the Land Engagement at 2.29. Dia here is .455. Point of land engagement is .13x (+/-) from case mouth.

Boolit #3, Axeman's 600gr LBT. Quenched WW, Sized .457 (PITA). No crimp groove. Pre chambering COAL 2.555. Post chambering COAL 2.528, Again, land engagement dia .455.

Boolit #4 is the same boolit, but it actually almost pulled from the case on extraction.

When I load a 405gr Rainier TCFMJ out to 2.555 and chamber it, it seats itself to 2.423 on loading... tight to the lands.

So that's what, a throat of .132 or thereabouts?

Is it normal for the 1886 to have that short of a throat?

Glat I only loaded up a few rounds to test-chamber...

[crs]

I have read on this forum that the Miroku 1886 HAS NO throat ! That seems to be true for mine.

[KirkD]

I had a Winchester/Miroku 1886 extra light and it pretty much had no throat. I could chamber the Hornady 350 grain round nose, because its olgive was long enough to do it, but I could not chamber the Hornady 350 grain FP. The olgive was too blunt and the bullet would hit the rifling before the cartridge was fully chambered. I called Winchester about this, thinking I had a defective chamber, but the fellow there said that they were all chambered that way. I decided to go with cast bullets and haven't looked back. I used a few different cast bullets and never had the problem you have, but it looks like all your cast bullets, with the exception of the one at the left, have a pretty wide olgive. Your blunt, fat bullets are not going to fly in your '86 unless you seat them pretty deep.

[Old Ironsights]

Arrgh.

Looks like I'll have to have Dave cut me a bore-rider if I want a wider meplat, more weight AND make 2.550 COAL...

Somthing like this:



450gr, .445 bore ride .459 drive dia, .445 nose length.

[Tycer]

Here's mine:

[J Miller]

This is just a thought, but why couldn't you have a gunsmith cut a longer throat for it?

Joe

[Nazgul]

I have the same problem on a Browning 1886. I use a Ballisti-cast 420 gr FNGC most of the time, seated short and crimped with a Lee die. The old Lyman 462560 bullet works well, it is sized to fit the factory throat. Launching 540grs at 1600 fps should do for most animals. The recoil isn't too much.

[morgan in nm]

I have a browning 86 that also has the same problem. Instead of deepening the throat, I bought a cheap cannelure cutter so I can use the hornady 350grn. Works great. Buffalo Arms is where I bought mine but I don't know if they are still available.

[Tycer]

Yours looks to be shorter than mine.

How many here would be interested in using a throating reamer and smoothing out their 45/70s? If there is enough interest, perhaps we could purchase one and share it.

[KirkD]

Another idea is what Snooky Williamson did. He put a cannelure into the case with a small pipe cutter that he had dulled the edge of. The cannelure in the case prevents the bullet from being pushed into the case.

[O.S.O.K.]

If it were mine, I'd have a short lead/throat cut into the rifle. That would allow for the bullets that you want and may also improve accuracy.

If there are enough here that want to do this, you could consider pooling your funds and doing a group buy on a reamer and send it around. Just and idea. The guy that wants to keep it can pay some more... Just an idea.

Cutting a throat is not hard and I think (?) that this can be done without removing the barrel.

[Griff]

My Browning is short and I don't intend to change it. Works with the cast that I use, 325-405, traditional shaped bullets.

[Grizz]

This is the bullet shape that works in both the B-1886 and all the Marlins. There is no swelled ogive, it feeds like butter, and has a huge meplat. Marshall makes this design in 325g, 425g, and 525g. All gas checks. But not the bore rider design...

Ranch Dog has a mold for a 420g that I believe will feed in the SAAMI chamber.

Grizz

[Nazgul]

I have a throat reamer for 45 caliber rifle, bought it new and have used it 3 times. It opens the throat to .459" max. It is from brownell's.

If there is interest I could be persuaded to donate it to the sight(free).

It requires the removal of the bolt, not the barrel. Easy to do on Marlins, a little more complicated on Browning/Winchester.

[Old Ironsights]

I have a throat reamer for 45 caliber rifle, bought it new and have used it 3 times. It opens the throat to .459" max. It is from brownell's.

If there is interest I could be persuaded to donate it to the sight(free).

It requires the removal of the bolt, not the barrel. Easy to do on Marlins, a little more complicated on Browning/Winchester.

Mine's a take down... I could probably use a Dremel...

I'm a little hesitant to cut into the barrel if I can get a bullet mold that will do what I want... and if I understand Bore Riding correctly it probably would.

I have the RD 460-425 mold but I haven't cast/loaded any yet.

[KirkD]

It shouldn't be a problem to find a cast bullet that will fit. I used three different cast bullets in mine and they all worked fine: the 330 grain Gould, a 405 GC, and a 420 PB. Unfortunately, I don't know what moulds they came out of.

[Old Ironsights]

You can see here how much shorter the nose is on the heavier non-stepped bullets. I really am thinking having a stepped Bore Rider is the only solution short of reaming. (note how the LLA caught on the step):

Since a Gould is a .450 Nose Length BTAN, .445 Step, no GC, 50% meplat, Here's the latest thoughts:

..............Gould ...............................Gould 450 GC ......................Gould 450 GC 75%meplat



I shortened the nose length to .445 to add a little fudge factor, but... the biggest question there would be is whether or not the meplat would hang when lifted, because it looks like it would otherwise chamber the same way as the Gould, and move a lot of the weight forward... opening up case volume over non-boreriders.

[Grizz]

The cast performance 460g looks like your center drawing with the bore ride ring, and the 525g looks like the right hand drawing sans the ring. The piledriver series does not hang at all in any of my guns. The cpb is more difficult to chamber because of the fuller ogive.

I have some surplus btb 425s I'd be glad to mail to you if you'd like to see how they chamber. Just pm your pony express address.

I agree that you can move some weight forward, but I wonder how much, percentage-wise. And I wonder to what effect. As far as the increase of chamber, the heavier the bullet, the less powder needed to both drive it to its effective speed limit and keep the chamber pressure below grenade values...

Also, the heavies are less in need of gas checks as far as leading issues are concerned. They may affect accuracy, but I don't know why.

Grizz

[kimwcook]

The question I have about this short chamber is excessive pressures. My understanding is with smokeless powders and a COAL that imprints the bullet into the rifling raises the pressure of the round to very high levels. I believe with black powder that isn't an issue, but with smokeless it's dangerous.

The short chamber may be the reason why my '86 in 45-90 shoots the 45-70 so well.