30 WCF full length vs neck size

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: Hobie, AmBraCol

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
Message
Author
wm
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:03 pm

30 WCF full length vs neck size

#1 Post by wm » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:17 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTYfQoW ... r8xQMafBsU

Interesting. Always good to question assumptions and test what we know to be true.

Wm

Pisgah
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:01 pm
Location: SC

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#2 Post by Pisgah » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:59 pm

I just watched "Caddy Shack" the other night for the umpteenth time. I never realized Bill Murray narrated reloading videos... :lol:

User avatar
Tycer
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6691
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#3 Post by Tycer » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:21 pm

Cool gauge. Added to my list. I’ve just always eyeballed with the caliper to set the die to move the shoulder back a couple of thou. The tool would be nice.
Kind regards,
Tycer
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.saf.org - https://schoolsucksproject.com/ - http://www.guntalk.com

Larkbill
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: St Peters, Mo.

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#4 Post by Larkbill » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:17 pm

Lee Collet Die. It works. Just have to keep my brass separated.
___________________________________________________________________
I'm not paranoid because I carry a gun. Why should I be paranoid. I've got a gun.

User avatar
Sixgun Sr
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1081
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: S.E. PA---Where Trump Is Supported And No RED FLAG Laws

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#5 Post by Sixgun Sr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:10 pm

Yes...he knows what he's talking about and a nice tool also. But......as old school as I am I've learned how to do that with the FLS. Depending on load used and the condition of your rifle, you can load a 30-30 case dozens of times with little to no trimming...and they will chamber every time.

Of course, common sense should prevail...on ammo "that counts", always use new or once fired and fls.----6
You Can't Buy These Things
Image

DocRock
Levergunner 1.0
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:06 pm

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#6 Post by DocRock » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:37 am

Sixgun Sr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:10 pm
Yes...he knows what he's talking about and a nice tool also. But......as old school as I am I've learned how to do that with the FLS. Depending on load used and the condition of your rifle, you can load a 30-30 case dozens of times with little to no trimming...and they will chamber every time.

Of course, common sense should prevail...on ammo "that counts", always use new or once fired and fls.----6
Absolutely. Well put.

Bill Murray's commentary is valid and informative. And were we talking about !loading for a long range cartridge in an MOA or better rifle, well worth the effort. But the 30-30 is not a long range cartridge and very few rifles in which it is chambered are sub MOA. It really isn't hard to set one's full length die to set the shoulder only very slightly back, although it does take some attention. And the value of neck sizing only is rather lost on the 30-30. Everyone should pursue their own standard of excellence in reloading. For me, trim as needed, FLS each time, and anneal after three reloadings gets me 10-12 uses of brass in the 30-30.

piller
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9287
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#7 Post by piller » Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:10 am

I am a relatively new reloader compared to most on this forum. I full length size each time and trim about every third time. I probably could change, but I get about twelve loadings out of each piece of .30-30 brass. No more than I get time to shoot, it is enough for me.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost

3leggedturtle
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3279
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:34 am
Location: north of Palacios about 1400 miles

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#8 Post by 3leggedturtle » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:35 pm

I full lengthed sized all my 30/30 brass. Was mainly shooting cast bullets at 1000-1500fps. But ny brass lasted from 1972ish until 2005 when I pinched the necks shut and bought 300 new cases. YMMV todd/3leg
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

250 Savage: The Original short action, compact, high velocity cartridge.

User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 18598
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#9 Post by Griff » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:52 pm

DocRock wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:37 am
Sixgun Sr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:10 pm
Yes...he knows what he's talking about and a nice tool also. But......as old school as I am I've learned how to do that with the FLS. Depending on load used and the condition of your rifle, you can load a 30-30 case dozens of times with little to no trimming...and they will chamber every time.
Of course, common sense should prevail...on ammo "that counts", always use new or once fired and fls.----6
Absolutely. Well put.
Bill Murray's commentary is valid and informative. And were we talking about !loading for a long range cartridge in an MOA or better rifle, well worth the effort. But the 30-30 is not a long range cartridge and very few rifles in which it is chambered are sub MOA. It really isn't hard to set one's full length die to set the shoulder only very slightly back, although it does take some attention. And the value of neck sizing only is rather lost on the 30-30. Everyone should pursue their own standard of excellence in reloading. For me, trim as needed, FLS each time, and anneal after three reloadings gets me 10-12 uses of brass in the 30-30.
We'll have to agree to disagree, the .30-30 has just as much potential for accuracy as nearly every other cartridge ever imagined. And for those willing to just a little more in the way of case prep and loading technique, even without the minimal rifle work to enhance accuracy, it can dramatically improve performance.

I've free-floated (as much as is possible in a lever-action tubular magazine rifle), and gained better than MOA accuracy in both carbine & rifle forms of the ubiquitous Winchester mdl 94. Not every one mind ya, but enough to know that it is possible to improve the accuracy of ANY rifle with better crafted ammo. Taking that 3" group size rifle and shrinking it to 1-½" IS worthy of note. The fact that @ 70 I can't shoot as well as I could @ 40 doesn't mean that the rifle & cartridge is any less capable. The "wonder" cartridge of the 1890's still is! It hasn't diminished one iota in its capabilities! In fact, with what's been learned since its introduction in accurizing rifles & ammo, its' potential is even better!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!

piller
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9287
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#10 Post by piller » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:10 pm

Griff, are you suggesting that the .30-30 is capable of hitting the broad side of a barn from more than 10 feet? HERESY!!! Why, we all know that it never was a capable round. Don't you know that those millions of deer died from laughing themselves to death. Of course, it is so anemic that its detractors can stand in front of the barrel safely.

YEAH, RIGHT!
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost

DocRock
Levergunner 1.0
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:06 pm

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#11 Post by DocRock » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:43 pm

Griff wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:52 pm
DocRock wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:37 am
Sixgun Sr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:10 pm
Yes...he knows what he's talking about and a nice tool also. But......as old school as I am I've learned how to do that with the FLS. Depending on load used and the condition of your rifle, you can load a 30-30 case dozens of times with little to no trimming...and they will chamber every time.
Of course, common sense should prevail...on ammo "that counts", always use new or once fired and fls.----6
Absolutely. Well put.
Bill Murray's commentary is valid and informative. And were we talking about !loading for a long range cartridge in an MOA or better rifle, well worth the effort. But the 30-30 is not a long range cartridge and very few rifles in which it is chambered are sub MOA. It really isn't hard to set one's full length die to set the shoulder only very slightly back, although it does take some attention. And the value of neck sizing only is rather lost on the 30-30. Everyone should pursue their own standard of excellence in reloading. For me, trim as needed, FLS each time, and anneal after three reloadings gets me 10-12 uses of brass in the 30-30.
We'll have to agree to disagree, the .30-30 has just as much potential for accuracy as nearly every other cartridge ever imagined. And for those willing to just a little more in the way of case prep and loading technique, even without the minimal rifle work to enhance accuracy, it can dramatically improve performance.

I've free-floated (as much as is possible in a lever-action tubular magazine rifle), and gained better than MOA accuracy in both carbine & rifle forms of the ubiquitous Winchester mdl 94. Not every one mind ya, but enough to know that it is possible to improve the accuracy of ANY rifle with better crafted ammo. Taking that 3" group size rifle and shrinking it to 1-½" IS worthy of note. The fact that @ 70 I can't shoot as well as I could @ 40 doesn't mean that the rifle & cartridge is any less capable. The "wonder" cartridge of the 1890's still is! It hasn't diminished one iota in its capabilities! In fact, with what's been learned since its introduction in accurizing rifles & ammo, its' potential is even better!
At no point did I question the accuracy potential of the 30-30. It is not a long range cartridge, so the degree of case prep required for a PRS cartridge is not required for the 30-30. And what lever guns do well is not shoot tiny groups at long ranges. That does not impugn the accuracy potential of the cartridge. It is simply a statement of fact. As I clearly stated, everyone should pursue their own standard of excellence in reloading. I can shoot sub-2MOA groups with my Marlin 336 without faffing around with necksizing. I don't believe anyone is shooting MOA groups with an iron sighted lever gun. Period.

Larkbill
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:31 pm
Location: St Peters, Mo.

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#12 Post by Larkbill » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:54 pm

The time saved in messing around with lube alone makes the Lee Collet die a bargain.

Whether in my 14" Contender for IHMSA (true, not anymore) or my 94 with cast bullets and my 336 with jacketed in Big Bore Lever Silhouette I go through a lot of .30 Wcf and time saved can go towards loading .45 Colt for my Pistol Cartridge Lever Silhouette matches.
___________________________________________________________________
I'm not paranoid because I carry a gun. Why should I be paranoid. I've got a gun.

User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 18598
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#13 Post by Griff » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:19 am

As I said, we'll agree to disagree. If you're competing with a mdl 94 in .30-30 against all manner of other leverguns, you'd do well to make all the effort necessary to wring as much accuracy as possible from the cartridge. I don't believe you need to neck size to get sufficient accuracy to compete well. I don't neck size, but mostly because I have too many rifles chambered in .30-30, and like to just grab what ammo is there in the box. I may find a time when I can't be competitive, and that maybe neck sizing is a step I have to take. I taken trophies home when there've been guys that said I couldn't win against their .38-55 or ... I'm especially proud of the one representing a shoot-off @ 400 yards... and the fact that it was two of us shooting .30-30s out of a field of mostly .38-55 & 45-70s in that shoot-off... too bad my friend that I beat was my ride home... :P Luckily the wind was fairly steady that day... Also proud of the day when I qualified my mdl 94 in .30-30 as sniper certified... beat my good friend with his .30-06 that day. I was kinda goaded into that bet. I must admit, I believe his own over confidence won the day for me. I do believe that if you're referring to ranges over 300 yards as "long range", I'll agree with you, the .30-30 doesn't shine there... but out to around 300 it can do very well if you pay attention to your ammo preparation.

I'm not pretending that it can compete with many other cartridges in other action types, but, let's not dismiss it out-of-hand. I'm hoping that when I finally sight in my 20" 66 Centennial it's a MOA contender. So far, at least on steel, its shown some promise... but, the proof is on paper!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!

DocRock
Levergunner 1.0
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:06 pm

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#14 Post by DocRock » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:08 am

Griff wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:19 am
As I said, we'll agree to disagree. If you're competing with a mdl 94 in .30-30 against all manner of other leverguns, you'd do well to make all the effort necessary to wring as much accuracy as possible from the cartridge. I don't believe you need to neck size to get sufficient accuracy to compete well. I don't neck size, but mostly because I have too many rifles chambered in .30-30, and like to just grab what ammo is there in the box. I may find a time when I can't be competitive, and that maybe neck sizing is a step I have to take. I taken trophies home when there've been guys that said I couldn't win against their .38-55 or ... I'm especially proud of the one representing a shoot-off @ 400 yards... and the fact that it was two of us shooting .30-30s out of a field of mostly .38-55 & 45-70s in that shoot-off... too bad my friend that I beat was my ride home... :P Luckily the wind was fairly steady that day... Also proud of the day when I qualified my mdl 94 in .30-30 as sniper certified... beat my good friend with his .30-06 that day. I was kinda goaded into that bet. I must admit, I believe his own over confidence won the day for me. I do believe that if you're referring to ranges over 300 yards as "long range", I'll agree with you, the .30-30 doesn't shine there... but out to around 300 it can do very well if you pay attention to your ammo preparation.

I'm not pretending that it can compete with many other cartridges in other action types, but, let's not dismiss it out-of-hand. I'm hoping that when I finally sight in my 20" 66 Centennial it's a MOA contender. So far, at least on steel, its shown some promise... but, the proof is on paper!
So, in fact, we agree. I'm a 30-30 fan and I'm usually the one defending it against all comers. The video was all about neck sizing being so wonderful and necessary for 30-30. My remarks pointed out that for what the 30-30 does well, which is being chambered in handy repeating rifles that will hunt, in my opinion, out to 200 yards, neck sizing isn't a great idea and isn't going to do much. If you are shooting paper out to 300 yards with it, then maybe it is for you. But most folks aren't and, outside the cognoscenti, most people wrongly assume the 30-30 is a 150 yard cartridge.

User avatar
earlmck
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2899
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:10 am
Location: pert-neer middle of Oregon

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#15 Post by earlmck » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:59 am

As a fan of the Lee collet neck die and lower pressure casty loads I hadn't done a full-length resize of my brass (after the initial size of my thousand-round batch of once-fired stuff we used to be able to buy...) until I made the mistake of acquiring additional 30 WCF rifles. Now I have to FL size occasionally but it is more because of the diameter growth in the case above the rim rather than the shoulder in the case of my particular rifles.

That said, and having put in my time in the hole spending 14 minutes for 2 minutes of info, ... is there anybody out there (other than Mr. FortuneCookie45LC) who starts out by screwing the FL die down until it "bumps"? I don't do it that way. None of my reloading buddies do it that way. But he did convince me not to start doing it that way.
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies.
Patrick Henry

User avatar
Sixgun Sr
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1081
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: S.E. PA---Where Trump Is Supported And No RED FLAG Laws

Re: 30 WCF full length vs neck size

#16 Post by Sixgun Sr » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:01 pm

DocRock wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:08 am
Griff wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:19 am
I'm not pretending that it can compete with many other cartridges in other action types, but, let's not dismiss it out-of-hand. I'm hoping that when I finally sight in my 20" 66 Centennial it's a MOA contender. So far, at least on steel, its shown some promise... but, the proof is on paper!
So, in fact, we agree. I'm a 30-30 fan and I'm usually the one defending it against all comers. The video was all about neck sizing being so wonderful and necessary for 30-30. My remarks pointed out that for what the 30-30 does well, which is being chambered in handy repeating rifles that will hunt, in my opinion, out to 200 yards, neck sizing isn't a great idea and isn't going to do much. If you are shooting paper out to 300 yards with it, then maybe it is for you. But most folks aren't and, outside the cognoscenti, most people wrongly assume the 30-30 is a 150 yard cartridge.

Ok.....I agree with ya Doc Rock....sometimes threads go off in different directions as my compadre from Texas has noted from time to time.....Griff.......Doc, your link was a great one and one to learn with...it's just that some people have been doing this game for so long we tend to think we "know better". :D I believe your in the latter group of knowledgeable guncranks.

The biggest misconception among cartridges and their reputations usually, but not always, is traced to the guns they were made in.

If you take a match grade barrel, give it the proper twist in a blue printed action, along with a 1 lb trigger and a Nightforce scope, put in a match chamber for the 30-30 and give it a proper thoat, load it with VLD bullets, it will shoot right along with any precision rifle cartridge...maybe not out to 500 meters but 300 meters would be a no brainer.

On some windless days, shooting a 30-30 with single loading using 220 grain bullets and a case full of 4350, it's easy to hit the 1,000 yard steel buffalo at the Ridgeway Rifle Club....I've done it repeatedly with cast bullets and a 6x scope on an 1894 that was made in 1908.

I have many original Marbles cartridge adapters and one is for the .251 diameter 25 acp cartridge to be used in a .256 diameter 25-35 and I can hit beer cans or close to it at 140 yards on my back yard range. Try that with a 10 cent Sterling or Raven. :D

Many people put too much emphasis on accuracy....some will not hunt with a rifle that gives 2" groups off the bench when in reality, using field conditions, 2" groups with ANY rifle is hard to do.

Ahh..what the heck, let's enjoy the grand old 30-30 in its original form in the original rifles and have fun. Your link was helpful to many people, especially the guys who haven't been doing this for decades. After all, NONE of us knew anything the first time we pulled down on the handle of our RCBS Jr. Presses, or CH, or Hollywoods, or Lyman's, or Bears, or lee, or for that matter, hand jobs from Lyman. (That sounded funny)---- :D ---6
You Can't Buy These Things
Image

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Hawkeye2, Larkbill and 2 guests