Anybody fire lap?

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fordwannabe
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Anybody fire lap?

Post by fordwannabe »

I have a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag that had two constrictions in the barrel. One where the lawyereze was stamped on the barrel and one under the rear sight(more common than you would think). This is a 1970’s MARLIN not a Remlin. Well I had seen this on another 44 mag I had several years ago and had Veral Smith’s kit from Lead bullet technology still so I loaded 29 following his directions. You shoot five clean shoot five ect. It improved, but not totally fixed so I went home loaded more and was able to go back to the range today and it finally felt better when running patches down the bore. After a major cleaning I shot a 5 shot group of exactly the same load as I used before the fire lapping. Again this is the same load bullet, sizing, powder everything and both groups are at 50 yards.
3EA1FE48-E325-4793-8B39-889FBBEBD605.jpeg
More shooting required but didn’t have any more, it does show promise though and cleanup was WAAAAY easier than before.
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by piller »

No, I have never done it. I can see how it would be helpful.
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by 765x53 »

I have considered trying it on an old Mauser with a dark bore. I would like to know if it would help. I am hesitant to try cast bullets as it is.
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by GunnyMack »

A buddy of mine bought a Marlin 45-70 and it had a ROUGH bore, this was maybe 15 years ago. It was a new gun by the way. Well he got to fire lapping using 2 steel plates and Clover lapping compound. Groups shrunk remarkably and clean up was a snap. I believe he used 1200 grit, smeared it on one plate then rolled the bullets between the two. Then loaded the bullets. It's simple enough. This way is MUCH easier than pouring a lead lap on a steel rod, I've seen this done- lots of elbow grease!
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by Mainehunter »

I've done it with a few rifles in the past. Pretty simple and quite effective! I bought the lamping components from Beartooth Bullets.

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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by Bronco »

I also have used Veral's lapping kit. I just wanted to smooth out the barrel, didn't have any issues to begin with in my Marlin. Anyway it is able to shoot 3" groups( 5 shot ) at a hundred yards and has almost zero leading issues. I shot about 4" or 5" groups before the lapping.
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by fordwannabe »

There were a couple people at the range during my first session and they were fascinated. I think the bullets being seated flush and backwards had them confused.
Don’t be afraid of cast boolits especially in a rough bore. I have used cast in some nasty bores that shoot surprisingly well. The correct size bullet is key in shooting cast.
As you can tell from the bottom picture I am pleased. Now to go make a couple bazillion more of those.
Oh yeah that is a 310 grain Lee bullet that my Marlin should not be able to stabilize according to the experts. Kinda wonder what it would do if it could stabilize that bullet?😳
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marlinman93
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by marlinman93 »

I've fire lapped barrels before, but never bought a kit. I just coated the bullet tips with extra fine valve lapping compound and shot them. I was careful not to fire too many as I'd heard it was possible to wear out the rifling if you went too far. But it definitely improved accuracy on the guns I wanted improved groups with. I would not do fire lapping on just any bore, as it only helps in situations where there's an issue with constrictions, or rough bores. And only on fairly new bores.
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fordwannabe
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by fordwannabe »

Val, all good points. This gun had a major constriction where the roll stamp was applied and played hob with accuracy with a cast bullet,in addition to severe leading. I don’t know why it is an issue with the 44 mag guns other than less steel around the bigger hole in the barrel but you would think a 45 would be worse and I don’t hear about it on those as often. Since we are on this topic I feel I should mention to new cast shooters that the SAAMI spec for 44 mag rifle Bores and pistol bores are different l! Handgun spec is .429 rifle spec is .430 so choose bullets carefully. In a Marlin barrel a cast bullet should be one to two thousands over true bore diameter. My loads were.432. Every gun is slightly different so when shooting cast bullets experiment with your gun. As I said earlier this carbine should not shoot a 310 grain bullet very well
but the proof is in the pudding.
Now let’s see if I can get my 32 long to shoot accurately AND reliably cycle. I seem to be able to do one or the other not both☹️
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Grizz
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by Grizz »

That is totally outstanding!!! I have not done that YET, but my redhawk is badly in need of that treatment AND a hone job in the cylinder bores so I can thumb my cast bullets through it.... then I will see the same results. my kit came from beartooth bullets, and Marshall has an article showing the improvment in his redhawk. highly recommended, even if I haven't done that yet.

for bullet casters, a dead soft lead bullet gently rolled in valve grinding compound, the finest one, does the trick.

in the redhawk, it eases the throat, and done Marshall's way it tapers the bore ever so slightly. this gives him higher velocities at standard pressures, and very fine accuracy. his tech note database is offline right now
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by piller »

My Remington 700 gets a lot of copper fouling in the bore. I wonder if fire lapping may help. I have hesitated because the accuracy is right at 1 inch at 100 yards with almost any bullet and powder I use for up to 20 rounds. After that it is time to use a copper fouling remover again. I never shoot that many times when hunting.
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Grizz
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by Grizz »

IDK, it's a good question. I don't shoot copper jackets in the lead shooters, but sometimes shoot lead in the copper shooters.

I hope someone here has experience with this.
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by AJMD429 »

A buddy of mine fire-lapped, while driving his car; the dropped cigarette burned through his pants and blistered his leg (fortunately not the middle one), and he about wrecked his car. :o
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by Grizz »

talk about a distracted driver
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by Mainehunter »

piller wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:27 pm
My Remington 700 gets a lot of copper fouling in the bore. I wonder if fire lapping may help. I have hesitated because the accuracy is right at 1 inch at 100 yards with almost any bullet and powder I use for up to 20 rounds. After that it is time to use a copper fouling remover again. I never shoot that many times when hunting.
You can try it BUT make sure you have ALL copper fouling out of the bore before fire lapping. I think with that Remy I would hand lap instead which I've done quite a few times with good results. Hand lapping just smooths out the bore if there are any imperfections where as fire lapping removes the restriction in the barrel.

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harry
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by harry »

piller wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:27 pm
My Remington 700 gets a lot of copper fouling in the bore. I wonder if fire lapping may help. I have hesitated because the accuracy is right at 1 inch at 100 yards with almost any bullet and powder I use for up to 20 rounds. After that it is time to use a copper fouling remover again. I never shoot that many times when hunting.
Removing all copper is paramount, I’ve used the Tubbs bullets on quite a few factory barrels and custom barrels. http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finish-bullet-kits
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Re: Anybody fire lap?i

Post by fordwannabe »

I agree whole heartedly that a spotless clean bore is priority one. I scrubbed and scrubbed then used a FoulOut to get all the rest.
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by harry »

This is what you get with the Tubb final finish. You don’t have to use the whole set unless you need to. 224, 6mm, 257, 308
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by Tycer »

I had a bell-mouthed Win 1886 EL. The tapered barrel had apparently experienced hoop-stress release after all that metal had been removed. I was able to open the chamber end several thousand to make it a couple of thousand larger than the muzzle. I did it in the shop as I only used enough powder to get the lap projectile out of the barrel.
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by Jay Bird »

You can lap it with regular shooting with no fear of overwear......an old timer told me 40 years ago that I'd be amazed what 500-1000 cast bullets will do to polish a barrel...I'm guessing 2-300 jacketed would do the same.

What I do know for sure is what benchrest shooters do with their rifles.....they start out with a 30" barrel and after the throat gets worn a bit, they chuck the barrel in a lathe...cut a few inches off and rechamber.....I asked one of these guys, "why don't you just put a new barrel on it as the cost is probably the same?" "Naaaaaa.....You ought to see how polished the rest of the barrel is....you can't buy em like that"-----6
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by marlinman93 »

piller wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:27 pm
My Remington 700 gets a lot of copper fouling in the bore. I wonder if fire lapping may help. I have hesitated because the accuracy is right at 1 inch at 100 yards with almost any bullet and powder I use for up to 20 rounds. After that it is time to use a copper fouling remover again. I never shoot that many times when hunting.
I would not mess with fire lapping a bore if it shoots that well. The odds of improving it by removing copper fouling are not high enough compared to the chance of making it shoot less accurately. There are solvents to remove copper that are not hard on the bore that I'd try instead.
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by piller »

That is what I have been doing. After about 20 shots, accuracy suddenly falls off. A copper solvent and a little time brings it right back to as accurate as I am capable of shooting it. I have not yet tried that CFE powder. Perhaps it might help. H 4350 gives such good accuracy that I am hesitant to try the CFE. H414, IMR3031, and I think Reloader 7 have given good results. H414 copper fouled faster.
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by Shrapnel »

I have never seen anyone that fire laps hit more targets or kill more stuff than I have and never fire lapped. Getting all the copper removed from the bore isn’t as critical as many say it is either...
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by JimT »

Shrapnel wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:18 am
I have never seen anyone that fire laps hit more targets or kill more stuff than I have and never fire lapped. Getting all the copper removed from the bore isn’t as critical as many say it is either...
What you say is trued. If you read my article covering the Model 94 30-30 on Leverguns.. I describe using an Outers Foul Out to remove all lead and all copper fouling on my Model 94. The perfectly clean bore did not shoot worth stuff. The barrel, after it was cleaned, did not shoot well until over 100 rounds were fired through it.. At first the groups "walked" around the target. Eventually it settled down and shot very well.


http://leverguns.com/articles/taylor/model94_3030.htm
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by Shrapnel »

JimT wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:06 am
Shrapnel wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:18 am
I have never seen anyone that fire laps hit more targets or kill more stuff than I have and never fire lapped. Getting all the copper removed from the bore isn’t as critical as many say it is either...
What you say is trued. If you read my article covering the Model 94 30-30 on Leverguns.. I describe using an Outers Foul Out to remove all lead and all copper fouling on my Model 94. The perfectly clean bore did not shoot worth stuff. The barrel, after it was cleaned, did not shoot well until over 100 rounds were fired through it.. At first the groups "walked" around the target. Eventually it settled down and shot very well.


http://leverguns.com/articles/taylor/model94_3030.htm
I would also amend my statement to say that getting all the lead out of the bore is a different story, you do want to get the lead out. Copper, however, isn't the demon many say it is, and as you commented, the gun doesn't shoot so good, cleaned completely to the bare bore...
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by 3leggedturtle »

I used automotive polishing compounded smeared on 22lr. Had a NEF Versa Pak 22 barrel that would foul after 5 shots. That one took 20 shots b4 it would stay clean after a box or 2 of ammo. The other 22 barrel took 12 shots b4 it was good to go. I dont care if it was dumb luck or what but it really slicked up those bores nice! As always Mr. Phelps, YMMV Todd/3leg
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by piller »

Different gun. Different results. My Rem 700 shoots great cleaned to bare metal in the bore, and not so good with a little fouling. No, I cannot explain exactly why.
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by fordwannabe »

Because each gun likes what IT likes and what may work well for one maybe not so much for another. I am carefully optimistic that this Marlin will be better than it was when I started.
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Re: Anybody fire lap?

Post by Griff »

With a bore obstruction as you've described (impressions inside the bare from roll marks, etc.), fire lapping will get that straightened out. But, I've always felt that fire lapping induced premature barrel wear, and have been reluctant to use it except in dire cases.
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