Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

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Pete44ru
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Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#1 Post by Pete44ru » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:47 pm

.

The pics tell the tale, with factory/commercial ammo:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... day-Kaboom


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Last edited by Pete44ru on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#2 Post by J Miller » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:57 pm

Double or more powder charge. Last time I saw a .45 Colt cylinder blown like that the cause was a double charge of Bullseye.
Gun owner needs to contact the ammo maker first then Cimmarron.

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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#3 Post by Ray » Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:29 am

There was once an incident at the clarkesville arkansas gathering with a 4" s & w mdl. 29.....it was thought that bullseye had been used in a load meant for 2400.....the gun was destroyed and shooter had to go to the e.r.

As for the link to the other forum, I read or at least skimmed all 7 pages and came to the conclusion that they have more than their fair share of ballisticians.....
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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#4 Post by AJMD429 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:22 am

Glad nobody was hurt.

I'm betting the New Shooter won't stick with the hobby after that experience.... :shock:

This part is sad but probably true:

"As I am the one who also blew up my uberiti 45 lc I can tell you what you need to do.

Call uberiti open a ticket. The will want the firearm back for inspection.

The will open the box call you two seconds later and tell you to call the ammunition manufacturer. Write unsafe to fire o. The barrel and send it back to you.

They WILL NOT do anything else unless you send them a letter head from a lawyer.

If you happen to know one....

The Ammo factory will tell you to call the fire arm manufacturer and tell you that that gun uberiti/ cimmeron is not safe to fire modern ammo. Black powder loads only. After all they are replicas.

Mark my words

If you dont happen to be a lawyer or have one willing to do you a solid they are just going to ignore you till you go away
"

....reminds me of computers....software blames hardware and hardware blames software.... :|
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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#5 Post by earlmck » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:58 pm

I have made several "ooops's" in my reloading career. Fortunately never damaged the gun. But in every one of mine the primer pocket was enlarged dramatically and the primer long gone. So I am very interested that the primer is merely protruding out the back of the primer pocket of the subject cartridge but apparently still held by some tension.

So how would we be able to tell whether it was a dramatic overcharge of the cartridge producing high pressure and blowing out the cylinder wall, or whether some fault in the metal allowed things to come unglued at normal pressure? If I had that material in hand the first thing I would want to do is see how much pressure was required to seat a new primer in the primer pocket of the blown case. If that primer pocket is still unenlarged I would be placing my blame on the metal of the revolver; if the primer goes in with mere thumb pressure I'd go with overcharge. But I don't know if you can tell the difference just by looking at the pictures.
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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#6 Post by Old Savage » Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:25 am

Saw a Marlin 45-70 once ripped apart by what you might call a stall. Kicked the bullet part way down the barrel before the main part of the charge went off.
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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#7 Post by wvfarrier » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:56 am

Ive read a couple other "incidents" over the past couple years involving Precision One ammo. Granted, anything you read online must be scrutinized. I purchased some of their 45-70 ammo before reading the stories. In the interest of caution i weighed every round in the 4 boxes i had and got some significant discrepancies in total weight, pulled some apart and two (out of 20) had less than 10 grains (if i remember correctly) of powder in them. Some of the others were off by 4 to grains. I contacted them and they refunded me the entire purchase even for the box i messed with but would not take that box back (understandable). I just disassembled them and reloaded properly.
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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#8 Post by jnyork » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:38 pm

I have no idea if this was an overcharge or not, but it sure would seem to be the most likely culprit.

Over 60 years ago , a local gunsmith was teaching my father and I about reloading. He stressed to us that we should NEVER shoot anyone else's reloads or reload for anyone else. I have strictly adhered to that plan ever since and glad I did. I also have never shot any "off-brand" ammo manufactured by reloading used brass and glad for it. With the exception of .22 rimfire, I have not purchased or shot any factory ammo at all for probably 40 years, reloaded my own the whole while.

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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#9 Post by Ray Newman » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:10 pm

These threads about .45 Colt revolvers disassembling themselves was what made me load with Trail Boss powder as a double charge of Trail Boss will overflow the case.

Before Rail Boss, I was always a bit paranoid about the double charge and checked and rechecked my loads and probably was the reason why I did not shot my .45 Colts often. Some of Fellow Shooters laugh at the load, but it does not take too much energy to kill a piece of paper. Cannot recall the exact charge, but it will push a 250 grain at about 650 FPS. Like I said, enough to kill a piece of paper as well as keeping the revolver intact....
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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#10 Post by buckeyeshooter » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:54 pm

You folks make me happy that I shoot large frame Vaqueros in 45 colt and have had new cylinders made in a set of 44 mags for 44-40's. Not that a Ruger is impossible to blow up, but alot harder than a colt or colt repro.

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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#11 Post by J Miller » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:51 am

Uberti's and other Colt sized .45s are not week or prone to failure. That revolver in the first post was destroyed by faulty ammo. Look close and you'll see just how clean the burn marks are, no soot, no kernels of powder, no residue of any kind really. That was a major overload. It's not a what powder was used, it's how much. At least a double charge of fast burning powder did that. Faulty ammo.

I've been loading the .45 Colt for almost 50 years and have used everything from Bullseye to 2F black and if the loader pays attention this will never happen. My favorite load is 7.1 grs of Win 231, and that charge doesn't even come close to filling up the case. No problems at all.

As for Rugers, you can blow them up too, it just takes takes more.

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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#12 Post by JimT » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:39 am

I've seen all kinds blow up ... 1911's .. Colt's & reproductions of Colt .. Ruger's ... S&W .. in over 60 years of shooting. Never blew one up myself for which I thank the Good Lord.

I was at Clarksville when the S&W .44 Magnum blew up. I was standing between the shooter (who was not injured) and the the guy who was hit by part of the cylinder. It embedded in his right forearm. He was taken to the hospital where it was removed. It was a full cylinder-length long piece a little less than 1/2" wide. It went to the bone in his forearm about halfway between the wrist and elbow.

The shooter had been loading 2400 and wanted some lighter loads so he switched to a faster powder but forgot to weigh and change the powder measure. It was like a hand grenade going off. Some of the pieces of the cylinder actually cut the metal table leg that I was standing at. Pieces of the cylinder went out both sides. Thankfully no one else was hit.

I have seen Uberti's blown like the gun in the video. Once it was two bullets loaded into one cartridge. They weighed the rest of the ammo and found at least one other one that was that way. I have never seen a bullet lodged in the barrel blow a sixgun. I was on the range when a guy shooting a .44 Magnum had a squib and fired a full magnum up behind it. Bulged the barrel very badly but it did not blow the gun. I also saw that happen with a 45 Colt and a 357 Magnum and they did not blow. I ain't saying it cannot happen. I have just never seen it.

Some kids brought me a Colt Gold Cup 1911 that was locked up. Finally got it apart and they had bulged the barrel into the slide by shooting it after a bullet stopped in the bore. My dad turned the bulge down on the barrel, we reassembled the gun and it would still shoot into 2" at 25 yards, even with the big oversize spot in the middle of the bore.

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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#13 Post by Pisgah » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:44 am

I won't say that a metal flaw didn't cause this gun to disintegrate at normal pressures; humans manufacture things, and humans can screw up. But I would be surprised if a close metallurgic examination of it didn't show a drastically overpressure load was the cause. I have seen that sort of destruction many times -- thankfully, never with one of my guns or loads -- and an overcharge simply has to be the prime suspect until conclusively proven otherwise. I'm certainly not going to shy away from shooting my Uberti Flat Top Target .45 because of this example.

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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#14 Post by Ray » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:12 am

JimT wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:39 am


I was at Clarksville when the S&W .44 Magnum blew up. I was standing between the shooter (who was not injured) and the the guy who was hit by part of the cylinder. It embedded in his right forearm. He was taken to the hospital where it was removed. It was a full cylinder-length long piece a little less than 1/2" wide. It went to the bone in his forearm about halfway between the wrist and elbow.

The shooter had been loading 2400 and wanted some lighter loads so he switched to a faster powder but forgot to weigh and change the powder measure. It was like a hand grenade going off. Some of the pieces of the cylinder actually cut the metal table leg that I was standing at. Pieces of the cylinder went out both sides. Thankfully no one else was hit.

thanks for correcting my inaccurate narrative......

I had misremembered that it was Hoot who was shooting Murph's revolver and loads.....
m.A.g.a. !

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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#15 Post by JimT » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:15 am

Ray wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:12 am
I had misremembered that it was Hoot who was shooting Murph's revolver and loads.....
No problem Ray. The older I get the more I misremember things! It's good that I wrote a lot of stuff down when it happened. I go back and read those old notes and think, "That ain't the way I remember it!"

Murph was devastated by the blowup. When it happened he knew the mistake he made. Hoot was laying on the ground and I knelt down with everyone and while they gave him first aid I prayed for him. Later his wife came back to the motel and showed us the piece of cylinder they took out of his arm.

The last time I saw Hoot a few years ago he was doing OK but had some lingering issues in his forearm.

I have been present at several other blowups and never saw anyone hurt, thankfully. A testimony to God's grace and the design and strength of most guns.

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Re: Cimmarron MP415 Model P .45 Colt SAA Failure

#16 Post by piller » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:56 am

I have done some reloading, but I am still pretty much a beginner at it. I use only published load recipes from reputable and ewell established companies. I did once pull about 50 rounds because I was distracted by something even more important and I had forgotten what recipe had been used. I pulled the lot and used powder out of a factory can. I just wasn't sure and there was no need to assume that I had been right without making the final check of reading the can and the scale and the recipe. No Kabooms yet from my reloading. I plan on keeping it that way.

I once bought some Houaton Cartridge Company loads at a gun show. They were 9mm. My old Ruger P85 was firing them without any issue. I decided to try my daughter's Kahr. It came apart. I sent it kack to Kahr and they fixed it. They said that the cartridges were severely over pressure. I still had a few of those rounds, and I disassembled them and burned the powder. I reloaded them and had no more issues. I had to buy a set of dies for 9mm. I hadn't been bothering to save 9mm brass due to availability and low cost. While at the range, I did get curious after the Kahr came apart in my hand. I looked around and most of the brass from what I had been firing was mangled. It looked as if it had been ripped apart, and the primers were blown out of most of the pieces. The Kahr is designed to come apart in that situation, kind of like how a race car comes apart to shift the main impact away from the driver. I was not injured. When cleaning the Ruger, it was full of little chips of brass. Not shavings. Chips.

Houston Cartridge Company never did respond to my emails.
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