Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

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AJMD429
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Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#1 Post by AJMD429 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:26 am

https://www.history.com/news/attack-of- ... -years-ago

another article - https://web.mst.edu/~rogersda/forensic_ ... %20new.htm

I had never heard about these....!

I guess the Palestinians are using them currently against Israel.
Last edited by AJMD429 on Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#2 Post by jeepnik » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:46 am

Started a few fires but largely ineffective. Interesting idea using the jet stream to aerially attack ones enemy. And it pretty much works only one way.

With today’s radar and aircraft I doubt it would work even more poorly.
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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#3 Post by 3leggedturtle » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:15 am

You be amazed to read about Bats as Bombs in WWII then.
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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#4 Post by Pisgah » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:59 pm

I am not surprised most people don't know about these. Americans don't know history. Not long ago I had a conversation with a fellow who believed the Battle of the Bulge happened outside of Petersburg, VA during the Civil War. When I said he was wrong, that the Bulge was in Europe in WW2 and the one at Petersburg was the Crater, he said I was wrong, and could not be convinced otherwise! :roll:

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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#5 Post by Bill in Oregon » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:00 pm

I have been to the site on Gearhart Mountain in southern Oregon where those children were killed. It is a sad place to contemplate the Japs' hatred for us in those days.

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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#6 Post by Pisgah » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:01 pm

3leggedturtle wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:15 am
You be amazed to read about Bats as Bombs in WWII then.
How about the pigeons used as the guidance system in early "smart" bombs?

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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#7 Post by wm » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:11 pm

People chuckle about the ineffectiveness of the balloon bombs without realizing how close we came to real disaster. Look up "Unit 731" and " Unit 1644" & then you'll realize what the ultimate goal of a balloon bomb over Los Angeles or San Francisco was.

Truman knowingly or unknowingly probably prevented millions of civilian deaths on the west coast of the USA by dropping the Atomic bombs and compelling a surrender.

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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#8 Post by AJMD429 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:23 pm

Pisgah wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:59 pm
I am not surprised most people don't know about these. Americans don't know history. Not long ago I had a conversation with a fellow who believed the Battle of the Bulge happened outside of Petersburg, VA during the Civil War. When I said he was wrong, that the Bulge was in Europe in WW2 and the one at Petersburg was the Crater, he said I was wrong, and could not be convinced otherwise! :roll:
Newt Gingrich and William Forstchen wrote a great book chronicling the Battle of the Crater.
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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#9 Post by AJMD429 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:48 pm

wm wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:11 pm
People chuckle about the ineffectiveness of the balloon bombs without realizing how close we came to real disaster. Look up "Unit 731" and " Unit 1644" & then you'll realize what the ultimate goal of a balloon bomb over Los Angeles or San Francisco was.
One of the more chilling aspects of the 731 story "....In spite of this, many Unit 731 researchers never stood trial for war crimes. Instead, the United States, eager to beat the Soviet Union in the global arms race, granted them immunity on the condition that they give the U.S. the information they gathered when conducting their experiments. Two declassified government documents reveal that the U.S. eventually paid over $2.3 million (in today’s dollars) for that data."
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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#10 Post by jeepnik » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:31 pm

The US and England both offered German scientists safe haven in return for their knowledge. German "Vengeance" weapons killed many more than the balloons.
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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#11 Post by Ji in Hawaii » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:09 am

If it's any consolation the napalm fire-bombing of Tokyo a couple months earlier on March 9 & 10 of 1945 by the United States Army Air Forces was the single most destructive bombing raid in human history totally destroying 16 square miles of central Tokyo killing an estimated 100,000 civilians mostly women, children, and the elderly, and leaving over 1 million homeless. My mother was there a 16 year old nurse treating the countless burn victims. When my dad first met her in 1949 4 years after the war ended she was still living in a homeless shelter in a warehouse with her parents, and 2 younger siblings. War is hell they say.
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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#12 Post by Ray » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:53 am

Ji in Hawaii wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:09 am
If it's any consolation the napalm fire-bombing of Tokyo a couple months earlier on March 9 & 10 of 1945 by the United States Army Air Forces was the single most destructive bombing raid in human history totally destroying 16 square miles of central Tokyo killing an estimated 100,000 civilians mostly women, children, and the elderly, and leaving over 1 million homeless. My mother was there a 16 year old nurse treating the countless burn victims. When my dad first met her in 1949 4 years after the war ended she was still living in a homeless shelter in a warehouse with her parents, and 2 younger siblings. War is hell they say.
It is estimated that from between 1894 and 1945 the japanese military tortured and murdered more innocents combined than all of the historic, infamous, well known genocide totals. In china and korea alone they murdered almost 15 times more than the total japanese WW2 deaths.

So yeah, war is hell.
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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#13 Post by Ji in Hawaii » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:26 am

Ray wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:53 am

It is estimated that from between 1894 and 1945 the japanese military tortured and murdered more innocents combined than all of the historic, infamous, well known genocide totals. In china and korea alone they murdered almost 15 times more than the total japanese WW2 deaths.

So yeah, war is hell.
Sorry Ray but your statement is simply not true when you say "more innocents combined than all of the historic, infamous, well known genocide totals". The Chinese have killed more of their own people than the Japanese ever did. Mao Zedong was responsible for the death of 65 million Chinese citizens during his rule alone far surpassing the highest Japanese kill estimates of 20 million TOTAL civilians and military combined. For your information Americans are estimated to have killed 3 million Filipinos between 1898 and 1941 during the US occupation of the Philippines 3 times the 1 million deaths the Japanese are estimated to have been responsible for between 1941 to 1945 during their occupation. There is no way there should be any excuse or justification of civilians being targeted and killed on any side of any conflict. Ray, in your opinion do you feel that not enough Japanese civilians died during that terrible conflict. Do you wish more did? You'll get no argument from me that the Japanese Military machine and their rulers were truly monsters as were the Nazis, but justifying the targeting and killing of civilians as a form of retribution is just wrong.
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Akā, ʻo ka poʻe hilinaʻi aku iā Iēhova, e ulu hou nō ko lākou ikaika;
E piʻi ʻēheu aku nō lākou i luna, e like me nā ʻaito;
E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
E hele mua nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e maʻule.
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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#14 Post by Beaker » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:07 pm

Ji in Hawaii wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:26 am
Ray wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:53 am

It is estimated that from between 1894 and 1945 the japanese military tortured and murdered more innocents combined than all of the historic, infamous, well known genocide totals. In china and korea alone they murdered almost 15 times more than the total japanese WW2 deaths.

So yeah, war is hell.
Sorry Ray but your statement is simply not true when you say "more innocents combined than all of the historic, infamous, well known genocide totals". The Chinese have killed more of their own people than the Japanese ever did. Mao Zedong was responsible for the death of 65 million Chinese citizens during his rule alone far surpassing the highest Japanese kill estimates of 20 million TOTAL civilians and military combined. For your information Americans are estimated to have killed 3 million Filipinos between 1898 and 1941 during the US occupation of the Philippines 3 times the 1 million deaths the Japanese are estimated to have been responsible for between 1941 to 1945 during their occupation. There is no way there should be any excuse or justification of civilians being targeted and killed on any side of any conflict. Ray, in your opinion do you feel that not enough Japanese civilians died during that terrible conflict. Do you wish more did? You'll get no argument from me that the Japanese Military machine and their rulers were truly monsters as were the Nazis, but justifying the targeting and killing of civilians as a form of retribution is just wrong.


Unfortunately in the evolution of warfare since the industrial revolution, the killing of civilians was justified with the concept of "total warfare" which really came of age during the American Civil War. In total warfare it is not only necessary to defeat the enemy directly on the battlefield, but to take out their means to resist by attacking their industrial capacity to make armenents. This includes not only the factories, shipping centers, raw material sources for production but also the civilian workers or labor force, especially the skilled workers, who manned the armaments factories. In the case of the Tokyo fire bombings and other Japanese cities this was the case and part of General LeMay's strategy. LeMay understood the necessity of knocking out the labor force to starve the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy's ability to wage war. Brutal?, yes. Out of all of this, only one fact is undeniable: War Is Hell.

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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#15 Post by Pisgah » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:17 pm

jeepnik wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:31 pm
The US and England both offered German scientists safe haven in return for their knowledge. German "Vengeance" weapons killed many more than the balloons.
Von Braun was an SS officer in charge of rocket development.

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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#16 Post by Ji in Hawaii » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:47 pm

Beaker wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:07 pm

Unfortunately in the evolution of warfare since the industrial revolution, the killing of civilians was justified with the concept of "total warfare" which really came of age during the American Civil War. In total warfare it is not only necessary to defeat the enemy directly on the battlefield, but to take out their means to resist by attacking their industrial capacity to make armenents. This includes not only the factories, shipping centers, raw material sources for production but also the civilian workers or labor force, especially the skilled workers, who manned the armaments factories. In the case of the Tokyo fire bombings and other Japanese cities this was the case and part of General LeMay's strategy. LeMay understood the necessity of knocking out the labor force to starve the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy's ability to wage war. Brutal?, yes. Out of all of this, only one fact is undeniable: War Is Hell.
Just because the winning side committed war time atrocities does not make it justified. You mention the American Civil War. One of the "heroes" of that war General William Tecumseh Sherman was that wars greatest war criminal.

http://opiniojuris.org/2005/08/09/histo ... criminals/

During the Civil War, General Grant insisted that the defeat of Confederate armies was the first and foremost objective of Union strategy. Disobeying this policy, General Sherman set forth on a march to Savannah and the sea on November 15, 1864. He led his Union troops away from every Confederate army camp or stronghold. Instead, his army proceeded through the soft belly of the South, burning and destroying the civilians, their homes, their property, their farms, their food, their entire countryside. They murdered the children and the elderly, raped the women and then shot them, and stole every valuable they could get their hands on.

In air campaigns against Japan in 1944 and 1945, General Curtis LeMay of the U.S. Army Air Corps also defied the established wartime policy of the United States. That policy called for precision daylight bombing of military targets. Instead, LeMay retrofitted his planes with napalm cannisters (jellied gasoline), and dropped them at night over the northern suburbs of Tokyo, which were then the most densely populated areas in the world. Of course there were no men of fighting age present; there were only women, children, and the elderly packed in their wooden homes. On one evening, March 9, 1945, LeMay’s pilots were particuarly lucky: there was a brisk wind that carried the flaming napalm across wide distances. The heat that was generated was so great that the few people who could get out of their homes in time and jump into the nearest river or lake were boiled to death. General LeMay had successfully presided over the murder of 100,000 innocent people. He also had a quip to give to posterity: “There are no innocent civilians, so it doesn’t bother me so much to be killing innocent bystanders.”


If Sherman, and LeMay were on the losing side of their wars they would have been tried as war criminals. They won so many consider them heroes. To justify their decisions which resulted in the murder of countless civilians is just plain wrong.

I miss the Leverguns forum of 15+ years ago where we were more like brothers talking about our favorite firearms, not justifying the mass murder of civilians if committed by the "winners". Good bye, this is my final post in this forum.
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Akā, ʻo ka poʻe hilinaʻi aku iā Iēhova, e ulu hou nō ko lākou ikaika;
E piʻi ʻēheu aku nō lākou i luna, e like me nā ʻaito;
E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
E hele mua nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e maʻule.
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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#17 Post by AJMD429 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:45 pm

Exploring history, without 'sanitation', is far different than 'glorifying civilian casualties', and I sure didn't get the impression anyone here was particularly happy about ANY needless death, or even needless war, for that matter.

War is essentially group-self-defense, in its honorable and justified form. One can argue about strategies, and to what extent the individuals harmed must have sword-in-hand vs be support-personnel, infrastructure operators, or yes, even family-back-home.

If we aren't willing to discuss those issues and learn from them, there is no hope that war will ever get any more civilized.

Does war relate to leverguns....? Perhaps more than motorcycles, revolvers, metal-forging, fishing, tractors, trucks, camping, and all sorts of other peripheral stuff we talk of here....leverguns have been used in many battles, and doubtless used to kill both deserving and innocent human targets.
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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#18 Post by Beaker » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:57 pm

Ji in Hawaii wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:47 pm
Beaker wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:07 pm

Unfortunately in the evolution of warfare since the industrial revolution, the killing of civilians was justified with the concept of "total warfare" which really came of age during the American Civil War. In total warfare it is not only necessary to defeat the enemy directly on the battlefield, but to take out their means to resist by attacking their industrial capacity to make armenents. This includes not only the factories, shipping centers, raw material sources for production but also the civilian workers or labor force, especially the skilled workers, who manned the armaments factories. In the case of the Tokyo fire bombings and other Japanese cities this was the case and part of General LeMay's strategy. LeMay understood the necessity of knocking out the labor force to starve the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy's ability to wage war. Brutal?, yes. Out of all of this, only one fact is undeniable: War Is Hell.
Just because the winning side committed war time atrocities does not make it justified. You mention the American Civil War. One of the "heroes" of that war General William Tecumseh Sherman was that wars greatest war criminal.

http://opiniojuris.org/2005/08/09/histo ... criminals/

During the Civil War, General Grant insisted that the defeat of Confederate armies was the first and foremost objective of Union strategy. Disobeying this policy, General Sherman set forth on a march to Savannah and the sea on November 15, 1864. He led his Union troops away from every Confederate army camp or stronghold. Instead, his army proceeded through the soft belly of the South, burning and destroying the civilians, their homes, their property, their farms, their food, their entire countryside. They murdered the children and the elderly, raped the women and then shot them, and stole every valuable they could get their hands on.

In air campaigns against Japan in 1944 and 1945, General Curtis LeMay of the U.S. Army Air Corps also defied the established wartime policy of the United States. That policy called for precision daylight bombing of military targets. Instead, LeMay retrofitted his planes with napalm cannisters (jellied gasoline), and dropped them at night over the northern suburbs of Tokyo, which were then the most densely populated areas in the world. Of course there were no men of fighting age present; there were only women, children, and the elderly packed in their wooden homes. On one evening, March 9, 1945, LeMay’s pilots were particuarly lucky: there was a brisk wind that carried the flaming napalm across wide distances. The heat that was generated was so great that the few people who could get out of their homes in time and jump into the nearest river or lake were boiled to death. General LeMay had successfully presided over the murder of 100,000 innocent people. He also had a quip to give to posterity: “There are no innocent civilians, so it doesn’t bother me so much to be killing innocent bystanders.”


If Sherman, and LeMay were on the losing side of their wars they would have been tried as war criminals. They won so many consider them heroes. To justify their decisions which resulted in the murder of countless civilians is just plain wrong.

I miss the Leverguns forum of 15+ years ago where we were more like brothers talking about our favorite firearms, not justifying the mass murder of civilians if committed by the "winners". Good bye, this is my final post in this forum.



You need to go back and reread my post again and pay particular attention to the first few words. I never said it was justifiable and I in no way am endorsing the concept of total warfare. What I am saying is they, the people during the Civil War and during WWII justified it. I am only pointing out matters of historical fact. Do not misconstrue what I said or put words in my mouth I did not say. History is history and it is what it is. Total war is unfortunate, brutal and serves to illustrate the concept that: War is Hell. And yes, both sides, during the Civil War and WWII, practiced Total War and unfortunately, with a high degree of success and efficiency.

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Re: Japanese 'War Tubas' - not - but 'War Balloons' - yes...

#19 Post by Beaker » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:05 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:45 pm
Exploring history, without 'sanitation', is far different than 'glorifying civilian casualties', and I sure didn't get the impression anyone here was particularly happy about ANY needless death, or even needless war, for that matter.

War is essentially group-self-defense, in its honorable and justified form. One can argue about strategies, and to what extent the individuals harmed must have sword-in-hand vs be support-personnel, infrastructure operators, or yes, even family-back-home.

If we aren't willing to discuss those issues and learn from them, there is no hope that war will ever get any more civilized.

Does war relate to leverguns....? Perhaps more than motorcycles, revolvers, metal-forging, fishing, tractors, trucks, camping, and all sorts of other peripheral stuff we talk of here....leverguns have been used in many battles, and doubtless used to kill both deserving and innocent human targets.

Yes, You are pretty much spot on. Although, I would consider the concept of a "civilized war", to be an oxymoron.

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