OT- Serious leading in my Vaquero

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sat May 31, 2008 7:11 pm

So I have this Vaquero, and I've been shooting mostly factory CAS loads--Winchester, Ultramax, and PMC. After about 1400 rounds, with periodic normal cleaning, there was major leading in the barrel as well as the forcing cone. I tried Shooter's Choice lead remover, and was not impressed with the results. Some lead was removed, but I think I could have achieved similar results with chocolate milk.

1. What can I do to reduce leading in the future?

2. How do I get leading out of my barrel?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat May 31, 2008 7:41 pm

Otto wrote:So I have this Vaquero, and I've been shooting mostly factory CAS loads--Winchester, Ultramax, and PMC. After about 1400 rounds, with periodic normal cleaning, there was major leading in the barrel as well as the forcing cone. I tried Shooter's Choice lead remover, and was not impressed with the results. Some lead was removed, but I think I could have achieved similar results with chocolate milk.

1. What can I do to reduce leading in the future?
Check the chamber throat diameters. If they are undersized, and many many Ruger .45s are, (I'm assuming it's a .45 Colt) it will lead badly. The undersized throats size the bullets down and then they are undersized for the bore. That would be my first thing to check.

2. How do I get leading out of my barrel?
Go and buy one of the ChorBoy type copper scrub pads. Make sure it's copper. Some are a mild steel with copper plating. Wrap a used bronze brush with it, then then scrub the bore and chambers really good. This will take the lead out. Just make sure to do it dry. The solvents act as a lube and then nothing much happens.

Joe

gon2shoot · Post by **gon2shoot** » Sat May 31, 2008 8:21 pm

Yep, what Joe said.
Rugers have a rep for having undersized chambers.

1886 · Post by **1886** » Sat May 31, 2008 8:34 pm

Joe pretty much nailed it. If the groove dia. is .451", assuming it is a .45 Colt, the throats should ideally measure about .4525". If they are smaller than groove dia. and they probably are, you will see leading. The Lewis Lead Remover does a great job if you have one. Leading in the forcing cone area and slightly ahead of this area can also be due to a restriction in the barrel. This restriction is sometimes caused when the manufacturer screws the barrel into the frame. Fire Lapping when done properly usually cures this condition. We are also assuming that the ammo manufactures are assembling their cast ammo correctly but do not be so sure. If you are starting to view the loading and shooting of cast ammo as some what of a black art you would be correct and not alone. I have been some what general and I am sure others will chime in to cover what I have ommitted. Keep the faith, it does get better. 1886.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat May 31, 2008 8:40 pm

Welcome to the fire Otto! Joe nailed it - nothing to add but "good luck!"

Mutt · Post by **Mutt** » Sat May 31, 2008 8:55 pm

I just yesterday recieved from Brownells the Lewis Lead Remover kit . ( 2 ) one for my 38sp/357 Colt SAA, and my 45 Colts .Haven't used them yet but like you I had already tried everything else with little luck .And every thing I read about these kits sounds like this is the real way to go. $ 26.59 for each kit . Any how , will try these out later down the line. ...........Looking at some more hospital time maybe in June or July.Dr. keeps moving my app. time . After that maybe I can get back to the range.
Mutt

1886 · Post by **1886** » Sat May 31, 2008 9:02 pm

Hope everything turns out well for you Mutt. Best Wishes. 1886.

Old No7 · Post by **Old No7** » Sat May 31, 2008 9:15 pm

While there are other shops that offer this service, an outfit called Cylindersmith can open up those tight throats for you, check out this link:
http://www.cylindersmith.com/

This process really works, as I did it to my .357 Ruger's. See this older post from this forum about the throat work I did on my Ruger's -- just ignore the "math challenge" I had in my original post, when I mentioned sizes in thousandth's instad of tenth's... Oops... But the guys here set me straight...
viewtopic.php?t=4318&highlight=throats

And FYI, here's a posting of forcing cone work that I also did:
viewtopic.php?t=4317&highlight=throats

Good luck!

Old No7

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sat May 31, 2008 9:24 pm

Yeah, cylindersmith, I remember that from the old forum. Somebody used to have something about that as their signature. Something like "45 throats for Pete's sake."

Thanks for the feedback everybody.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Sat May 31, 2008 10:41 pm

Otto,
As everyone has said, the likely cause is small cylinder throats. My .45 Vaquero has .451" throats and a .451" barrel groove. I shot .451" bullets, but was not happy with the amount of leading. Tried .452" bullets recetly and leading is almost nonexistant. Of course you have to reload to try different diameters.
Glenn

Jaguarundi · Post by **Jaguarundi** » Sat May 31, 2008 10:52 pm

All of the above will work(cylindersmith is the cure).Usually after shooting about 50 rnds of lead through a revolver I will fire a cylinder of High Velocity copperjacketed hollowpoints to get the leadout of the bore.(After inspecting for bore lead obstructions and chamber lead

)This is most dramatic when after shooting 38 wadcutters then blowing out the lead with a 125gr JHP in a 357 magnum running at 1450

!Like others have stated 45 colt chambers are bad for tight factory chamber throats.I will add that if you are unable to remove the lead from the forcing cone Brownells sells a forcing cone cutter that will remove it.A former classmate at PCC Gunsmithing program(class of 1990) had a then brand new S&W 29-2 6" that he would shoot 240 grain Keith hard cast through(50 rnds on a weekend)it.After a 2 year diet(yup you guessed it)the gun started producing horrible groups.(went from 3/4" groups to 5"@25yards)The gunsmith final solution was open the throats and recutt the forcing cone due to severe leading.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:30 am

Actually I do reload, and the last 300-400 rounds were Oregon Trail RNFP bullets, which I understood to be pretty hard. I ordered the .452 and not the .454 bullets. Now that I think about it, it seems that the leading increased exponentially when I switched to these. I did try a half-dozen jacketed Ruger loads, but that didn't help. Maybe I didn't use enough rounds.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:42 am

Otto wrote:Actually I do reload, and the last 300-400 rounds were Oregon Trail RNFP bullets, which I understood to be pretty hard. I ordered the .452 and not the .454 bullets. Now that I think about it, it seems that the leading increased exponentially when I switched to these. I did try a half-dozen jacketed Ruger loads, but that didn't help. Maybe I didn't use enough rounds.

Otto,

If your gun has undersized throats hard cast bullet will exacerbate the problem.

What happens is this; the throats reduce the bullet diameter and then the undersized bullet skids along inside the bore with powder gases burning around the sides causing it to soften and peal off on the barrel.
Now, the .45 Colt is such a low pressure round that hard cast bullets will not expand to seal the bore. O.T. bullets will take around 25K PSI to expand to the size of the bore. So you can see how reducing their diameters with undersized throats will make the matters worse.

Soft bullets on the other hand can be made to expand with much less pressure.

Here is a site with much information about bullet hardnesses and the pressures they require: http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

Joe

Joe

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:47 pm

I concur the situation needs cured, don't just chase the symptoms. That said, I have the Lewis Lead Remover kit and it cleans lead out in a hurry without a bunch of scrubbing.

NonPCnraRN · Post by **NonPCnraRN** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:56 am

Here's a site for copper wool used to stuff around pipes to keep pests out. You get 20 feet of copper wool for $11.25. That is a lot of lead scrubbing for a few bucks. Just wrap around a bronze brush to brush out the lead. http://store.doyourownpestcontrol.com/c ... w/KR243-10

Here is site for Cylindersmith: http://www.cylindersmith.com/

Here is Beartooths site for fire lapping info to remove the constriction in the bore where it screws into frame and polish the micro tool marks out of the barrel: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:00 am

Chasing Lead with Jacketed bullets...

I used to do that too. I've read that that process may only press the leading deeper into the grooves.

My jury is still out on that idea. Sadly, i probably dont shoot most of my centerfire pistols enough to have a problem (good thing... I have enough pistols to spread the leading out for years)

Whatever scrubbing method you use... Kroil works good. Seems to get under the debris and loosen it up.

Jeff

cas · Post by **cas** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:07 pm

Old No7 wrote:While there are other shops that offer this service, an outfit called Cylindersmith

FWIW... that be me.

Yep.. your throats are "probably" in the .450-.451" range, as most of them seem to be.

As far as shooting jacketed ammo to get the lead out, I think it probably gets 90% of it out. The rest it laps in nice and deep and makes it much harder to get out.

Not that I'm preaching mind you. I regularly switch between lead and jacketed in all my pistols, and rarely if ever clean the barrels.

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:39 pm

cas,

I'll be sending you my cylinder someday soon.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:43 am

You also need to have the forcing cone checked & possibly reamed. Most Ruger's have Factory forcing cones cut for jacketed bullets. It only takes a few minutes to ream the forcing cone.

We have a new Model Vaquaro in .357 and the forcing cone was non existant. When we tried the lewis lead Remover the screens would be cut from the aluminum cone. The rifling was very sharpe at the leade.

The throats were fine, the leading was caused by the sharp forcing cone.
A quick check for bullet/cylinder throat fit;

Remove the cylinder and drop a bullet in the chamber, it should just slide out of the front of the chamber. If it stops or must be pushed out the bullet is too tight for the chamber throat.
Also it is a good idea to check the bore groove dimension and this requires Sluging the bore.

Just because someone else uses a .452 size in there gun. Yours may require a .454 to function properly.

Unless I am pushing a bullet above 1000fps, I use a hard cast bullet. Most all my lead bullet shooting bullets are 20/1 soft cast. And I get very little leading.

http://www.cowboybullets.com

OT- Serious leading in my Vaquero

OT- Serious leading in my Vaquero

Re: OT- Serious leading in my Vaquero

Leading