How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: Hobie, AmBraCol

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
Message
Author
Naphtali
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:21 pm
Location: Montana

How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#1 Post by Naphtali » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:58 am

How is the foreend of a lever action carbine and its foreend tip bedded or otherwise adjusted to make the carbine more accurate, plus improve the maintenance of sights' "zero" despite significant changes in humidity?

Does this procedure improve most lever action carbines, for example Winchester 1886, 1892, and 1894 carbines?
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson

Nath
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 7374
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#2 Post by Nath » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:10 am

Oh no, now I am tempted to suggest my biggest discovery regarding the later w94 models and nobody tries it and reports back :cry:
Psalm ch8.

Because I wish I could!

User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14413
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#3 Post by J Miller » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:55 am

I have had many Win 94s and a few other brands of lever action rifles. I have never had one display poor accuracy or inconsistent grouping like these "bedding fixes" supposedly fix. I lived in AZ where the humidity shifted a lot and never noticed problems due to humidity. Lever guns are not target rifles, so you can't expect minute of angle accuracy from them.

I do know from experience that if the forearm and band fit is too loose the inertia of the forearm will bend the screw and eventually damage the band, screw and the barrel where the screw fits.
Most vertical stringing from lever guns is, again from my experience, from the rifle's balance shifting as it becomes muzzle light from the magazine emptying out. The shooter just has to acknowledge this and keep his sight picture aligned as he compensates for the weight shift.

Nath, you might want to put your fix in a word file and just post it when someone asks these questions. I know I've read it several times and can't remember it.

Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***

User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 23727
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#4 Post by AJMD429 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:20 am

Here's an article from the parent website on the topic - http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/chapter23.htm
PhotoSuckit Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "

Nath
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 7374
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#5 Post by Nath » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:30 am

Good idea Joe. Thanks.
How the heck do I do that!

Anyway, before fiddling with trying to float the barrel as I tried following Paco , don't bother, you will add more vibration and variables!

Do though make sure the pin that links the lever to the bolt is relieved so as to not be bearing any load on the pin when the bolt is in battery prior to firing.
Any undue contact here is bad news accuracy wise.
The only contact should the rear rising lug when in battery.
Any w94 where the tiny detent latch of the lever is hardly keeping the lever in the battery position is a sure sign of pressure on the link pin.

A 94 in 30wcf I could not get to shoot. I did everything, everything except the above!
I remembered an 80's 94 I had prior to the troubled one. That one was very close to MOA!
It dawned on me one day after the problem 94 had gone the difference in the levers feel on closing!!
I blagged a try of another 94 when I got chance at a range. I felt it's lock up and yep it was like trying to force the lever closed! It shot lousy too.

When I got my 357 94 it's lever felt the same so I tore it down and using a chainsaw file relieved the hole in the lever at the bolt junction.
That rifle turned out to also be very near an MOA rifle.

If ever I get another 94 it will be the first thing I check for period.

N.
Psalm ch8.

Because I wish I could!

User avatar
Pete44ru
Posting leader...
Posts: 10649
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:26 am
Location: Southern New England

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#6 Post by Pete44ru » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:26 am

.

IMO, the biggest deterrent to the accuracy when shooting rifles with two-piece stocks is the method used to shoot them. :roll:

IME, the best bench accuracy is obtained by preventing any part of the rifle's wood or metal from touching anything except a part of the shooter's body.


To wit:

* Grasp the forend tightly with the off hand at the same time pulling the FE both "down" (with the hand between the FE & the front rest) and solidly "back" into the shoulder.

* Grasp the buttstock's grip tightly with the trigger hand, leaving the trigger finger free, at the same time pulling the buttstock back solidly into the same shoulder.

* Take care that the toe of the buttstock does not touch the benchtop.


The method is much the same as offhand shooting, but with a more solid rest than standing.


.
IF IN THESE TYMES OF JEOPARDY,
MORTAL PERIL INVADES THY THOUGHT,
TAKE UP THIS TRVSTY PIECE,
TRVST IN THY GOD, AND FEAR THEE NAUGHT.

(The avatar is me, in 1948 ! )

.

User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3638
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#7 Post by marlinman93 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:41 am

Nothing you can do to a carbine will ever make it target rifle accurate. They can shoot extremely well, and as good as any other lever action repeater.
Most importantly is the forearm is snug to the barrel and mag tube. If you can grab the forearm and wiggle it, or shift it, it wont shoot as accurately as a snug forearm. If the forearm wood is loose, you can lay in some tape into the forearm along the edge and then reassemble to the barrel to see if it snugged up. I use plain old scotch tape and avoid the mag tube by putting strips on either side of the mag tube channel in the forearm. This is an easy fix, and test firing will reveal how it can improve group sizes.
If it was anything but a lever gun, bedding would be best. But leverguns aren't easy to bed with the mag tubes. It can be done by bedding the same area I use tape on, but it wont be any better, and it's possible to really mess up bedding along the barrel and mag tube of a lever gun.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/

User avatar
mikld
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:46 pm
Location: So. Orygun!

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#8 Post by mikld » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:58 am

From a levergun tyro; do these same methods/hints apply to other style leverguns, like a Browning BLR, Savage 99, or Winchester '95? I was under the impression these guns were as accurate as bolt guns (?)...
Mike
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit...
I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

Nath
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 7374
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#9 Post by Nath » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:14 am

mikld wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:58 am
From a levergun tyro; do these same methods/hints apply to other style leverguns, like a Browning BLR, Savage 99, or Winchester '95? I was under the impression these guns were as accurate as bolt guns (?)...
They are different and better in the barrel department.
When I say better I mean it loosely!
The BLR can walk it's shots and has a poor trigger mechanism.
I know little of nothing about m95's.
The Savage is the best in my opinion.

Pete says good sense. My most accurate shooting was always off hand, the moment I rested the things they would buck like a mule!
Psalm ch8.

Because I wish I could!

HawkCreek
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:21 pm

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#10 Post by HawkCreek » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:16 pm

mikld wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:58 am
From a levergun tyro; do these same methods/hints apply to other style leverguns, like a Browning BLR, Savage 99, or Winchester '95? I was under the impression these guns were as accurate as bolt guns (?)...
Shooting off hand or most field positions my 1895 Winchesters (carbines so they have the forearm held on by a barrel band) are probably close enough I couldn't tell the difference in accuracy against an iron sighted bolt gun. Never fired my Savage 99 so I can't comment on that. Buddy had a BLR, nice enough rifle but again I never fired it for groups.

Naphtali
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:21 pm
Location: Montana

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#11 Post by Naphtali » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:29 am

I'm curious. Please describe your Model 99. Is it a "safe queen," or have you owned too briefly to make the time to shoot it?
mikld wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:58 am
Shooting off hand or most field positions my 1895 Winchesters (carbines so they have the forearm held on by a barrel band) are probably close enough I couldn't tell the difference in accuracy against an iron sighted bolt gun. Never fired my Savage 99 so I can't comment on that. Buddy had a BLR, nice enough rifle but again I never fired it for groups.
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson

HawkCreek
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 211
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:21 pm

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#12 Post by HawkCreek » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:06 am

Naphtali wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:29 am
I'm curious. Please describe your Model 99. Is it a "safe queen," or have you owned too briefly to make the time to shoot it?
mikld wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:58 am
Shooting off hand or most field positions my 1895 Winchesters (carbines so they have the forearm held on by a barrel band) are probably close enough I couldn't tell the difference in accuracy against an iron sighted bolt gun. Never fired my Savage 99 so I can't comment on that. Buddy had a BLR, nice enough rifle but again I never fired it for groups.

Made in 1950, this is the only picture I have of it. I've had it several years, belonged to a great uncle of mine and was eventually passed down to me. A neat rifle for sure that I'd like to take it out hunting one day but outside of that I have other rifles and calibers that are more interesting to me.
Image

Naphtali
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 378
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:21 pm
Location: Montana

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#13 Post by Naphtali » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:11 pm

Two interesting rifles - one graceful, one chunky. I envy you.
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it. Sam Levinson

User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 23727
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#14 Post by AJMD429 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:55 pm

I read several reports of the pre-Remington Marlin lever actions they called the XLR series shooting 5 shots under one inch at a hundred yards consistently with decent handloads. That's all I would ask if any hunting rifle unless I were out west hunting an extreme ranges or gunning for prairie dogs. I have a couple I bought back when I had a decent income, but have not had the time or money to work up loads for them. I think there is great potential there because of some of the subtle changes they made in the design versus the regular 336's.

Even my short little 16 inch 357 Marlin 1894 was able to shoot three shots in about an inch and a half at midnight using my so-called NightScout sights and set up...


Image
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46640#p583183
PhotoSuckit Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "

BenT
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2506
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:21 pm
Location: Northern Wisconsin

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#15 Post by BenT » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:02 am

Nath,
You are spot on about the lever to bolt tension. I had a 94 that you had to grip the lever extra hard to pull the lever in far enough to push on the lever safety. I tried a different lever and no difference. So I cut off a piece of a drill bit that was a smaller diameter than the lever bolt pin and it solved the issue and the accuracy improved. That piece of drill bit is still working fine.

Nath
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 7374
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: How to improve accuracy and consistency of carbine?

#16 Post by Nath » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:39 am

BenT wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:02 am
Nath,
You are spot on about the lever to bolt tension. I had a 94 that you had to grip the lever extra hard to pull the lever in far enough to push on the lever safety. I tried a different lever and no difference. So I cut off a piece of a drill bit that was a smaller diameter than the lever bolt pin and it solved the issue and the accuracy improved. That piece of drill bit is still working fine.
Hooooray. Thank you very much Ben. 8)
Psalm ch8.

Because I wish I could!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Booger Bill, Bronco, Camel73, hayabusa, wm, zack coyote and 14 guests