Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: Hobie, AmBraCol

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
Message
Author
Cheyenne
Levergunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#1 Post by Cheyenne » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:35 pm

Hi there,

I have a Winchester 94AE that has occasional feeding problems. The problem occurs when the action is closed forcefully. The gun feeds fine when worked slowly. It works fine when opened forcefully and then closed gently. The problem occurs with forceful(I would actually say "normal") closing of the action. I do want to stress that I am not working the action too hard, the problem occurs within the normal operating speed/force of a levergun.

The jam appears to be caused by the rear of the case being lifted too far/fast and then the middle of the case wedging against the top of the rear of the chamber. Imagine the case with a very slight nose-down attitude and then wedging when trying the enter the chamber. So, the action jams with the cartridge about halfway into the chamber. It can be easily cleared by backing off the lever. The case also appears to force itself under the extractor and it pushes the extractor off to the side quit a ways. So, instead of the typical push-feed action, it's like a failed control-feed.

This occurs with factory Winchester ammo, snap caps, and reloads (full length resized and trimmed to correct length). So I think this problem is all in the gun, not the ammo.

I doubt this is normal, so I hope someone can direct me to a solution. I will be happy to provide any additional details. To my untrained eye, it seems like the cartridge, particularly the rear of the cartridge, is being raised too far or too fast. Or, the cartridge isn't settled before being pushed into the chamber.

JerryB
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 5347
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:23 pm
Location: Batesville,Arkansas

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#2 Post by JerryB » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:36 pm

Welcome to the best gun forum there is. There are several members here that can help you with your problem, just stay with us.
JerryB II Corinthians 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

JOSHUA 24:15

User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 23663
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#3 Post by AJMD429 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:40 am

I don't know the answer either, but within 72 hours you'll do unless get several people who actually KNOW something about leverguns (I just buy 'em and shoot 'em) who will answer.

Welcome to Levergun Enablers.... :lol:
PhotoSuckit Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "

User avatar
OldWin
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2691
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:38 pm
Location: Maine

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#4 Post by OldWin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:12 am

Welcome to the fire!

I'm no expert, but sounds like the guides at the rim opening, causing the rim to not get under the extractor when it should.
That is a SWAG, however. It may help if we know what chambering your 94 is. Also bullet style if its chambered in a pistol caliber.
"Oh Bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered another round.

Cheyenne
Levergunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#5 Post by Cheyenne » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:30 am

The gun is chambered in 30-30.

If the rim is supposed to be under the extractor on feeding, then maybe I have a different problem. On my gun, the cartridge is only controlled by the extractor on extraction. It is merely push fed into the chamber, not under control of the extractor.

Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3587
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#6 Post by Malamute » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:07 am

They are push feed so to speak, the rim isnt supposed to be under the extractor, the spring loaded ejector is pushing the shell forward until it bottoms out in the chamber, then the extractor snaps over the rim.

Do you have access to another Winchester 94 to compare how the shell acts when you cycle the action slowly with a cartridge? It almost sounds like the slots in the cartridge guides have been messed with. Some believe Winchesters are only supposed to work when operated quickly, which I do not agree with, as all Ive ever had functioned perfectly at any speed.

Does the carrier (lifter) have good spring tension when its in the upward position? If not, it may not be holding the cartridge in tension under the cartridge guides until the cartridge nose is entering the chamber far enough to be controlled correctly by the bolt.

Steve will likely have a good idea of whats happening. I havent heard of this particular problem before that I recall.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?

Cheyenne
Levergunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#7 Post by Cheyenne » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:03 pm

Okay, here's a video of the jam to shed a little more light on the situation: https://youtu.be/Y4MCRPclozw

First the action is worked empty, then slowly with snap caps, then briskly with snap caps. Hopefully that makes things clearer since describing exclusively through text can be challenging. I don't have another 94 to compare to, so hopefully the video can show you what is going on.

Off camera, I was able to recreate the jam with an empty, sized, and trimmed case. This, to me, confirms it is not a bullet/OAL issue.

I think the feeding looks correct when done slowly; the case is pushed forward by the ejector. The lifter appears to have sufficient spring tension, but I can't say what is proper.

User avatar
Pete44ru
Posting leader...
Posts: 10611
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:26 am
Location: Southern New England

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#8 Post by Pete44ru » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:57 pm

.

Welcome to the board, Cheyenne !

FWIW, I've owned over a dozen Winchester 94's over the past 50 years, including few 94AE's, and none of mine have ever exhibited the issues in your video.

Did you buy this gun "new" or "used", and do you reload for it ?

I would suggest a light polishing of the upper half of the rear of the chamber, and the outer forward surface of the extractor claw, one at a time before testing, to isolate some of the possible causes, would be a good place to start your diagnostic procedure.

Also, I would suggest you test cycle with a few commercial rounds ILO the snap caps or your reloads (?).



.
IF IN THESE TYMES OF JEOPARDY,
MORTAL PERIL INVADES THY THOUGHT,
TAKE UP THIS TRVSTY PIECE,
TRVST IN THY GOD, AND FEAR THEE NAUGHT.

(The avatar is me, in 1948 ! )

.

Nath
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 7311
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#9 Post by Nath » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:46 pm

The ejector maybe the issue here.

IIRC the ejector needs to compress when feeding the round in the chamber.
If it is binding you can get your issue.

N.
Psalm ch8.

Because I wish I could!

Cheyenne
Levergunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#10 Post by Cheyenne » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:22 pm

I purchased the gun used and it has jammed with commercial ammunition too. The first 60 rounds I fired out of it were factory Winchester 150 gr and they jammed just the same as everything else.

I can compress the ejector with my finger, but it is difficult to do so. The cartridge does not compress the ejector until either jammed or properly seated in the chamber.

Cheyenne
Levergunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#11 Post by Cheyenne » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:33 am

After mulling this over I'm wondering if the previous owner didn's screw with the cartridge guides. Maybe the cartridge is being released too early (or late).

Does anyone know of a guide/tutorial for tuning the cartridge guides? Maybe better, does anyone know of a good gunsmith who still knows the Win 94 intimately and might be able to fix it? I'm willing to ship the gun to the right person. If the smith is in OH, PA, WV, even better.

Thanks.

Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3587
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#12 Post by Malamute » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:44 am

The ejector spring isnt going to compress any until the round seats in the chamber or it gets a fair amount of resistance, which I dont think feeding whould provide, the spring is pretty stout.

It looks like the edge of the chamber mouth is sharp and catching in the shell body to me. Id very gently break the edge with a fine ceramic stone on the top half of the edge of the chamber and see if it still happens. The cartridge guide slots dont look funky, but we cant see them very well in the video. Can you get clear pics of the slots in the cartridge guides? Do the edges and angles of the slots look crisp, or radiused over on the edges?

Here are pics of guides to compare to.

https://www.google.com/search?q=winches ... 69&dpr=1.1
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?

User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14404
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#13 Post by J Miller » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:11 am

Question: Is there any copy rights to pictures posted on Leverguns by forum members? I went through the Google search Malamute posted and found several of my pics I posted here stolen and used by others. Is there anything I can do about this since I did not print a copyright line on the pics?

Jo
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***

Nath
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 7311
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#14 Post by Nath » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:15 am

Thinking about it yes, I remember one of my 94's not being radiused enough top side circumference of the chamber mouth and that could hang up too.
Pete did mention this too.

N.
Psalm ch8.

Because I wish I could!

Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3587
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#15 Post by Malamute » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:45 am

J Miller wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:11 am
Question: Is there any copy rights to pictures posted on Leverguns by forum members? I went through the Google search Malamute posted and found several of my pics I posted here stolen and used by others. Is there anything I can do about this since I did not print a copyright line on the pics?

Jo
Without a copyright notice on an image I dont think you can do much.

Ive seen some of my pics elsewhere, one person was surprised that I was on the forum he posted one of my pics on, though he wasnt claiming it was his, it was a pic about cleaning up the back of the loading gate I think.

A couple times I wanted an image of mine but was either on a new computer that didnt have all my pictures on it yet or someone elses, I dont recall which, maybe both, and found it simpler to google the idea to find my own pictures than try to find where I posted them or my photobucket album if I didnt have it bookmarked in that particular computer. Another of the dumb things photobucket did, doing away with the user search.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?

Cheyenne
Levergunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#16 Post by Cheyenne » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:07 pm

Ok, thanks for the idea. I was hesitant to try polishing the chamber when Pete suggested it, but with more of a consensus now, I'll give it a shot after work.

Thanks to all for the advice and I'll let you all know how it works out.

User avatar
J Miller
Member Emeritus
Posts: 14404
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Not in IL no more ... :)

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#17 Post by J Miller » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:01 pm

Malamute wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:45 am
J Miller wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:11 am
Question: Is there any copy rights to pictures posted on Leverguns by forum members? I went through the Google search Malamute posted and found several of my pics I posted here stolen and used by others. Is there anything I can do about this since I did not print a copyright line on the pics?

Jo
Without a copyright notice on an image I dont think you can do much.

Ive seen some of my pics elsewhere, one person was surprised that I was on the forum he posted one of my pics on, though he wasnt claiming it was his, it was a pic about cleaning up the back of the loading gate I think.

A couple times I wanted an image of mine but was either on a new computer that didnt have all my pictures on it yet or someone elses, I dont recall which, maybe both, and found it simpler to google the idea to find my own pictures than try to find where I posted them or my photobucket album if I didnt have it bookmarked in that particular computer. Another of the dumb things photobucket did, doing away with the user search.
Thanks, I guess I'll have to start marking them in the future.

joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts ;) .***

Cheyenne
Levergunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#18 Post by Cheyenne » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:14 pm

Well, whatever I did today didn't fix the problem.

I used fine (1500 and 1000 grit) sandpaper wrapped around a dowel to try and polish or break the edge of the upper-rear of the chamber. I loaded up some dummy rounds in sized and trimmed brass and still experienced the jamming. The dummy rounds are covered in lengthwise striations (the whole length of the case) and the rims look pretty beat up as well. I am sure I didn't make things worse, this is just the result of jamming the same two cases over and over again.

Maybe I wasn't aggressive enough or didn't get the right angle. I might go at it again with a coarser grit of sandpaper, but I am obviously hesitant to get too aggressive.

User avatar
Pete44ru
Posting leader...
Posts: 10611
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:26 am
Location: Southern New England

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#19 Post by Pete44ru » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:58 pm

.

I would respectfully suggest using an oiled stone with a square end that's even a bit larger than the chamber mouth, and twist/scrape it's front edge/corner around the upper circumference.

Emery paper will take so long that you'll be ready for your Dirt Nap before the chamber lip will be rounded enough. :roll:


.
IF IN THESE TYMES OF JEOPARDY,
MORTAL PERIL INVADES THY THOUGHT,
TAKE UP THIS TRVSTY PIECE,
TRVST IN THY GOD, AND FEAR THEE NAUGHT.

(The avatar is me, in 1948 ! )

.

Nath
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 7311
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#20 Post by Nath » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:05 am

Pete44ru wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:58 pm
.

I would respectfully suggest using an oiled stone with a square end that's even a bit larger than the chamber mouth, and twist/scrape it's front edge/corner around the upper circumference.

Emery paper will take so long that you'll be ready for your Dirt Nap before the chamber lip will be rounded enough. :roll:


.
Absolutely.
Remove the bolt and get a dowel wrapped in #600 paper if no stone handy.
Psalm ch8.

Because I wish I could!

Cheyenne
Levergunner
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:24 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#21 Post by Cheyenne » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:37 pm

Hi Guys,

I just wanted to give this case a little bit of closure.

I used a 1/4" square fine India stone I had laying around to "round off" the rear of the chamber (not as drastic as it sounds). The rifle now feeds much, much more reliably and the occasional hangup can be fixed by applying a little more pressure to get the bolt to close. The remaining hiccups may be the result of using such dinged up dummy rounds, so the real test will be when I load up a bunch of live ammo and get to the range. But already massive strides have been made in reliability.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Malamute
Member Emeritus
Posts: 3587
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am
Location: Rocky Mts

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#22 Post by Malamute » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:53 pm

Thanks for letting us know what helped and that youve got it headed the right direction.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?

User avatar
Pete44ru
Posting leader...
Posts: 10611
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:26 am
Location: Southern New England

Re: Winchester 94AE Failure to Feed

#23 Post by Pete44ru » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:14 pm

.

I luv it when a plan comes together...………… :mrgreen:

.
IF IN THESE TYMES OF JEOPARDY,
MORTAL PERIL INVADES THY THOUGHT,
TAKE UP THIS TRVSTY PIECE,
TRVST IN THY GOD, AND FEAR THEE NAUGHT.

(The avatar is me, in 1948 ! )

.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Griff, OldWin and 15 guests