Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

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JeffWarner
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Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#1 Post by JeffWarner » Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:42 pm

I’m trying to sort out feeding issues on a .357 mag Winchester Miroku 1892. I’m getting the issues described in the link (viewtopic.php?t=46678 ) where the cartridge “can’t make the turn” going from the lifter to the chamber .... the nose gets in past the crimp, hits the top of the chamber and the cartridge rim jam in against the slots in the cartridge guides. I don’t see any obvious mechanical issues (lifter comes up all the way, cartridge guides look to be spaced right, no burs and jams happen even when the lever is worked fast or slow).

Image

I agree with the mantra : feeding straight wall cartridges for an action designed for bottlenecks makes the 92 action OAL and bullet shape sensitive, use a RNFP bullet. Pretty sure my issues are ammo related and since I’m not reloading, I need to find an off the shelf solution and I’m having difficulty in understanding what exactly is causes the hang-up in the feed cycle. Based on the photos below of what works and what doesn't, if there are any suggestions on what to look for in ammo that that may have a better chance of working; that would be much appreciated. Suggestions on increasing feeding reliability would be appreciated as well.

A selection of what I have tried:

Image

Going left to to right are:
1) Perfecta 158gr FMJ (1.584” OAL) - works
2) Fiocchi 125gr SJHP (1.587” OAL) – jams
3) Fiocchi 148gr JHP (1.584” OAL) - jams
4) Fiocchi 158gr FMJ (1.575” OAL) - jams
5) Fiocchi 125gr JSP (1.556” OAL) - works
6) Blaser Brass 158gr JHP (1.571” OAL) – works
7) Fiocchi 142gr FMJ (1.573” OAL) - works

-I started off with Perfecta 158 FMJ (#1) and CCI Baser Brass 158 JHP (#6) and found they worked perfectly.
-Figured 158gr flat point was what I wanted, but had mixed results. Fiocchi (#4 above) and S&B (not shown) failed. 158gr FMJ from PPU (not shown) worked.
-Experimented with bullets that had a narrow meplat with mixed results, not a loss since they are a little too pointy for a tubular magazine.
Fiocchi (#2, #3) failed, but the really narrow Truncated Cone 142gr FMJ (#7) worked.
-Found much better results with Jacked Soft Point. Fiocchi (#5 above), Remington 125gr and American Eagle 158gr all worked.

I’m not sure why some cartridges work and some won’t. I would have thought I needed a wide/flat metplat to mimic a RNFP and help push the nose of the bullet over and pull the rear up through the cartridge guides, but the narrowest (142gr FMJ) feeds really well and washes that theory.

I don’t think it’s a crimping issues. All cartridges that jam get the nose in far enough that the crimp is pas the chamber edge. While the Jacked Soft Points seem to have a nicer roll crimp, other rounds that feed have a taper crimp.

What really makes me scratch my head is the 158gr FMJs. Left to right below are a PPU and S&B. Both about the same OAL (1.58”), both taper crimp, similar truncated cone bullet with about the same meplat size … but the S&B jams while PPU feeds fine.

Image

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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#2 Post by gamekeeper » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:05 am

Welcome to the fire, I'm sure help will arrive shortly.. :D
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#3 Post by Trailboss » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:36 am

Jeff,

I had the same issue on a couple of my M92 carbines. Solved it by casting my own bullets with a large meplat bullet design. It seems that a bullet design with more of a point allows the bullet to sag rather than lift as it moves forward. A large flat instead of a rounded point fixes the problem.

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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#4 Post by Griff » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:23 am

Nate Kiowa Jones is THE '92 expert, but I'll take a stab at what I think is the issue. While the 1892 action should feed rounds at a max 1.600" oal; they often don't in actual practice, as you're finding out. Secondly, since the rifle is marketed as being multi-cartridge capable, (.38Spl/.357Mag), the factory seems to arbitrarily pick somewhere in-between as their focus point for max & min oal capability. The gun's timing is centered between the two overall lengths. This makes it VERY touchy as to any specific cartridge/bullet combo. From your photo, it appears that the point at which the rear of the cartridges comes up and is aligned with the bore axis in your instance is a bit late. In this instance I believe you probably need to lengthen the slot in the guide rails so the cartridge can come up sooner, rather than later. Which would lead me to believe that you should relieve the rear of the guide slots at the rear area. Hopefully, Nate will be along shortly and correct me or confirm for you.

You can contact Nate thru this forum, (look up his contact info here), or thru his website: Steve's Guns.
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#5 Post by Griff » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:43 am

BTW, Image, and Welcome to THE Forum! Mighty fine 1st post... although not the first that we've seen on this particular topic. You might do a search of topics on here with the subject "1892 Rossi jams*" and the author "Nate Kiowa Jones" under the advanced search function to view prior threads on this topic. Click on the little gear icon at the end of the search bar at the top right of the page to get to the advanced search feature. Search thru the General Discussion sub-Forum and wait... There ARE a LOT of them! My search came up with 568!

The reason for the "Rossi" in the search term? It seems to be the more popular selection and has a longer history than the Miroku version.
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#6 Post by crs » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:22 am

Do not get your dobber in the dirt. Whatever the problem , it can be solved.

My Winnie 1892 had an issue decades ago and I sent to a well known 1892 smith and it came back working on every load from 110 gr to 180 grain!
Has worked flawlessly ever since with all factory loads for 40 years.
So, when your feeding issue is resolved, it should stay resolved.
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#7 Post by Tanqueray » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:01 pm

I had an identical issue on an original 1892 rifle chambered in 44WCF. The projectile would enter the chamber, but would seem to hit the roof of the chamber and not be able to move forward. Putting pressure on the lever (enough to fully depress the ejector) didn't help.
The fix was to put a shim under the guide rails. I put a shim of a single thickness of coke can under the guide rail on the loading gate side - this didn't help. A shim of two thicknesses on this same side helped - after this I could load a round by working the lever briskly. Putting a shim under the other guide rail made it feed perfectly. Griff is right, it is a timing issue. The distance between the two guide rails dictates how far the rim of the case can rise, which in turn affects the trajectory the it enters into the chamber.
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#8 Post by Nate Kiowa Jones » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:33 pm

One of the reasons I like the Rossi's over the current Win/Miroku is the design of the cartridge guides. Win still uses the geometer of the originals when it comes to the angle of the rim slots. The original style guides do well with the bottleneck cartridges of which the guns were first designed for. But, with the straight wall ammo used today they tend to be slow bringing the back end up. This is something Rossi addressed years ago. Their rim slots are at a sharper angle to help bring the rear up sooner.

To the problem . Without the gun in hand it will be hard to say but there are a few things you can try. Just like a semi auto pistol some ramp work may be in order. Ramp work can lower the front just enough to allow the cart to make the turn. This sometimes requires lowering the front end of the carrier too. Or, you may be able to shim the guides in some to help bring the rim up sooner.
But, looking at your ammo the ones that seemed to work for you, they do seem to have a decent roll crimp. i know you said the crimp is not catching on the bottom of the chamber mouth but I have found that if the case mouth is not rolled over some it can cause problems making the turn.

The ammo that seems to work the most consistent is the Hornady LEVEREVOLUTION
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#9 Post by Carlsen Highway » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:42 pm

Tanqueray posting above - has the solution for this issue. The space between the cartridge guides needs to be reduced so it lifts the back end of the cartridge up higher, sooner.

Follow his instructions and shim one side or both with aluminium from a can, and then see if it helps, I am virtually certain you can fix this feeding issue this way.

Be wary of stripping the threads of the little screws, so don't overtighten them.
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#10 Post by JeffWarner » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:01 am

Many thanks for all weighing in. I'll try shimming the cartridge guides and see if that improves feeding. Its an easy thing to try and its reversible if it doesn't work ... messing around with the lifter or re-cutting guides lots are something I'd leave to Steve.

For the Winchester 92 action, what role does the bullet "nose" play in the feeding cycle? Was it designed assist the transition from angled to vertical (making the turn) by hitting the top of chamber and to help pull the rim up though the guides or is the transition being driven by the cartridge guides and the nose shape is more of an alignment tool to get the cartridge to feed into the chamber?

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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#11 Post by jeepnik » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:57 am

I'm coming in late, and others have mentioned COAL. But the first thing I'd do is shorten up the COAL. Make up some dummy rounds with shorter lengths and see if you find a length that works in "your" action. Could be your 92 isn't "exactly" the same as others.
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#12 Post by jnyork » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:28 am

I have a Rossi .357 that gave me no end of feeding fits when I first got . Finally, a guy loaned my his Lee Factory Crimp die and all the problems magically went away. I am using the Berry's plated 125 grain bullets.
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#13 Post by Nate Kiowa Jones » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:05 pm

jnyork wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:28 am
I have a Rossi .357 that gave me no end of feeding fits when I first got . Finally, a guy loaned my his Lee Factory Crimp die and all the problems magically went away. I am using the Berry's plated 125 grain bullets.
Yep, the 357 Rossi likes a good crimp. I can't tell how many times I get these guns in from folks that just need to crimp better. When someone contacts me about feeding issues like this besides bullet shapes and OAL's I always tell them about the crimp issues.
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#14 Post by JeffWarner » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:04 am

Finally got the chance to try shimming the cartridge guides. With one aluminum shim under the right guide, I was getting rubbing between the guide and the bolt. I'm not sure how much clearance would be needed and didn't feel the need to file down the guide to get it. I did a quick check with a few rounds and didn't see any changes on the ability for the round to "make the turn" so I pulled out the shim and re-assembled the rifle.

What was interesting was that after re-assembly, at least one ammo type (158 gr FMJ that look like truncated cones) fed fine. I must have tweaked the position of the guide and that small change impacted the feed geometry. Seems a little far fetched, but not sure what else might have happened. Since I'm not planning on reloading, I'll follow Nate's advice and look for ammo with a good crimp; that seems to be a common denominator for getting reliable feeding.

Rant. It amazes me that the same guy who designed the M1911 Pistol, something so simple and elegant that the parts of the gun are the tools need to take it apart, was the same guy who designed the Winchester 1892. I'm not a fan of pulling it apart.

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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#15 Post by vancelw » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:20 am

JeffWarner wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:04 am


Rant. It amazes me that the same guy who designed the M1911 Pistol, something so simple and elegant that the parts of the gun are the tools need to take it apart, was the same guy who designed the Winchester 1892. I'm not a fan of pulling it apart.
Gotta remember, the 1892 works fine with the cartridges that were in use when it was designed.
My B92 fees whatever I feed it, even upside down .
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#16 Post by Carlsen Highway » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:26 pm

Maybe you didnt tighten it up as much when you put the guide back in or something, maybe its sticking out slightly further than it was

I would encourage you to try a shim on both sides just as an experiment, just one thickness each.

You dont have to take the action apart to do this - keyhole surgery: you can can unscrew the guide and get it off just with the action open, and then fiddle the shim and it back into place if you hold your mouth right.

Your right putting a 92 back together is not fun.
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#17 Post by Carlsen Highway » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:30 pm

What do you guys mean when you say the crimp helps for feeding? How does the crimp help?
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#18 Post by Grizz » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:56 pm

Carlsen Highway wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:30 pm
What do you guys mean when you say the crimp helps for feeding? How does the crimp help?
I think the crimp helps by keeping the rim out of the way.

Interesting about the timing issues.

I thought about the ramp too. I wonder if a slow-motion video would help catch what's catching?

I have two 45/70s that don't like a rounded ogive and feed truncated cone bullets flawlessly. Interesting stuff.

I always enjoyed disassembling and reassembling my W-92 when I had one . . . NBD

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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#19 Post by Tanqueray » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:21 pm

JeffWarner wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:04 am
Finally got the chance to try shimming the cartridge guides. With one aluminum shim under the right guide, I was getting rubbing between the guide and the bolt. I'm not sure how much clearance would be needed and didn't feel the need to file down the guide to get it. I did a quick check with a few rounds and didn't see any changes on the ability for the round to "make the turn" so I pulled out the shim and re-assembled the rifle.

What was interesting was that after re-assembly, at least one ammo type (158 gr FMJ that look like truncated cones) fed fine. I must have tweaked the position of the guide and that small change impacted the feed geometry. Seems a little far fetched, but not sure what else might have happened. Since I'm not planning on reloading, I'll follow Nate's advice and look for ammo with a good crimp; that seems to be a common denominator for getting reliable feeding.

Rant. It amazes me that the same guy who designed the M1911 Pistol, something so simple and elegant that the parts of the gun are the tools need to take it apart, was the same guy who designed the Winchester 1892. I'm not a fan of pulling it apart.
I’m surprised to hear that a single thickness of tin shim caused the bolt to bind against the guide, maybe the Rossi’s are made to finer tolerances than my old 1892’s. I’d recommend having another go at shimming the guides, try different sides and different combinations of thicknesses, the difference between a cartridge feeding or jamming is literally one or two thou.
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#20 Post by Malamute » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:35 am

Carlsen Highway wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:30 pm
What do you guys mean when you say the crimp helps for feeding? How does the crimp help?

With insufficient crimp the edge of the case can catch on the edge of the chamber or anything else it encounters on the way in. A taper crimp may also have problems with this, as taper crimp is used on auto pistol cartridges so they have the edge of the case mouth to headspace on. A roll crimp turns the edge of the case into the bullet crimp groove so its below the surface level of the bullet as it feeds, no edge to snag, only a curved surface.
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Re: Winchester 92 Feeding and Bullet Profile

#21 Post by Carlsen Highway » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:06 am

OK yes I understand that, I have experienced it.

I still think the OP's problem is a cartridge guide issue.
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