My New 1894 Winchester

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:22 pm

A friend found this Winchester up on the mountain while deer hunting several years ago. Serial #279,XXX which according to Madis means it was made in 1903. No telling how long it was on the mountain. It is a 30 WCF with a 26" octagon barrel and a crescent butt plate. The area burned over a few years earlier and whatever stock wood that had remained is gone. There were several burst cartridges in the mag tube which have been removed. There is also one under the bolt that can't be pulled out since it swelled up when it burst. There seems to be an empty case in the chamber too. It is pretty well froze up with rust. The lever moves slightly in the lower link. The loading gate moves and the hammer can be cocked and fired. The springs are weak due to the fire but still have some spring to them. Likewise the rear sight still has some spring to it. There is some deep pitting on the mag tube and on the loading gate. The receiver and barrel do not look to be badly pitted. In fact there is still a fair amount of bluing on it that is mostly gone to brown. This is a fairly dry climate and it seems to have survived its stay on the mountain well. I am thinking if I can get it apart and the internals are good, I will restore it. I have a 26" .38 barrel and access to a 38-55 reamer. The rifle was hot but not hot enough to completely anneal the springs and I think the critical parts can be re-heat treated. At any rate here it is.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:44 pm

Wow, great find! Sounds like a great project.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:51 pm

That's really something....

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:09 pm

LOTS of work there... but it's VERY satisfying to return one of these old rifles to service!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:56 pm

that is amazing story and great opportunity.

are you gonna call it Phoenix?

I hope you photograph the steps you take, it would be a valueable resource.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:01 pm

What are the chances of the metal temper damage??

kevind6 · Post by **kevind6** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:03 am

A friends dad restored an old .30/06 that went through a fire. He replaced the stock, reblued the barrel and action, even replaced the springs. The first shot after he put all that work into the old girl the thing blew up.......the temper had gone from the steel. As much as I love old Winchesters, I wouldn't trust one that has gone through a fire. Tough as it sounds, it's purpose may be better served as a jack handle than as a working firearm.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:27 am

Which of course is why I said in my original post, "I think the critical parts can be re-heat treated".

The rifle appears to be in to good a shape to use for a crowbar. There is a company in Utah that heat treats old Mausers for about $100 the last I heard. I might contact them and see if they do Winchesters. If not somebody will do it. If I got crazy I could have Turnbull color case harden it.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:13 pm

If the spring cover and sight leaf still have some tension then most likely the bigger parts are just fine. That said, guns made before WWI are all suspect for good metal. We learned so much about metal treating from the war. Everyone knows about the pre-war 03's, mainly because of the higher pressures of the 3006 ammo. But, it was true of all guns of the era. But, because most were used with lower pressure ammo it didn't show up as a problem.
I would definitely rebuild that gun. Probably send the reciever and parts to Mike Hunter for his color-case work.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:24 pm

Buy a gallon of Evap-O-Rust from Harbor Freight and put the receiver down in it for a couple of days. It will take off all the rust, (bluing too) and you'll be able to dis-assemble the rifle. In you have a bluing tank long enough, put the whole thing down in it. They claim it's very safe and you can pour it down the drain when you're through with it. I use it for old gun and car parts all the time.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:33 pm

Nice find though. Very interesting. If only it could talk.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:13 pm

Wow, that one is begging for a rebuild, after Nate chimed in I would sure give it a whirl.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:16 pm

If it had some known history ,as like it was used in some famous battle ,massacre etc.
it would be worth restoring. If you had to hire the work done,the cost will end up being the price of two or three similar rifles in good shape.
It will make a great decoration in the man cave and good conversation starter.

Not saying it cant be done,just saying it is not worth the effort IMHO.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:59 am

Nate, Thanks for your comments. I have a feeling you are right about the large parts being OK. I did some research on steels and heat treating and the fact that the springs are still springy indicates it wasn't hot enough to anneal the receiver. I have been looking for info on the steel and the process Winchester used to make the receivers. Not much luck yet. The best I can come up with is that it is a low carbon steel with probably 1% to 5% nickel in it. It apparently doesn't have enough carbon to harden well but the nickel improves hardenability and toughness and corrosion resistance. Do you have any info on the steel analysis and the manufacturing process used in 1903? Or a source for that info?

I also agree that the low pressure cartridges these rifles were chambered for just don't stress the action that much. The Model 1894's made in 1894, chambered in 32-40 and 38-55, were made of whatever mild steel Winchester used for earlier guns. The nickel steel was adopted in 1895 with the introduction of the 30-30. So if I stay with the 38-55 there is no danger of "blowup". Even with the 30-30, how many times have we seen the question, "When I fire my 30-30 the primers are sticking out of the case, is there something wrong with my rifle?" And the answer is, "No!" This means that with the modern cartridge case the only pressure on the bolt and locking lugs is the pressure exerted by the primer because the cartridge case is not contacting the bolt. I have experimented with several wildcats in the Model 94 and I have found that if the cartridge case stretches enough to contact the bolt face it is way over loaded. The first symptom is the action gets sticky when the protruding primers start to flatten and mushroom. The action doesn't get sticky with standard loaded 30-30's.

Mike's case coloring is impressive. I will contact him when I get this rifle cleaned up and see what I have. I forgot about Evapo-rust. I have a little on the shelf. And this project will be a DIY project. I am a tinkerer and fairly well tooled up. I do my own rebarreling and stock work. The only expense I see, other than time, is if I decide to case color it.

As far as historical significance, the fact that this rifle was probably used by a hunter in the mountains I hunt is significant enough for me. I don't know why he left it there but it must have been a pristine piece when it was left. It may have been there since it was new and from the looks of it, it can be new again and go hunting again.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:15 pm

Sometimes, from my perspective, the value is in having done it and what that means to me. Having more than one $100 gun with a $300 hunk of wood on it, I can say they're worth at least quadruple the investment... To me!

Merle · Post by **Merle** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:59 pm

JerryB wrote:What are the chances of the metal temper damage??

It is my understanding that if the springs are damaged the gun is junk - sorry, but I wouldn't take the chance.

superchicken · Post by **superchicken** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:11 pm

Merle wrote:
JerryB wrote:What are the chances of the metal temper damage??

It is my understanding that if the springs are damaged the gun is junk - sorry, but I wouldn't take the chance.

Merle, if you get one with a bad spring, let me know and I'll help you dispose of it. No charge.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:37 pm

That's finding lost treasure.

I'd put that old gal back into serviceable condition, and then take her right back up on the mountain to pick up where she left off.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:46 pm

Do it.....low pressure cartridge. There will be lots of sanding/polishing but for the most part, it's lots of labor.....no major tech involved.

There was a story some years ago that I read about a guy who was told about an 1886 that was left on a tree (Broken part of a branch) some 35 years earlier in Canada. If I remember correctly, the story was in the sixties with the rifle being left on the tree back in the late twenties or so. Anyway, the guy went up to the area and found the rifle still hanging on the tree, minus most of the wood and deeply pitted.

He restored it, but in the end, about the only thing original was the receiver and a few small parts.-----6

harry · Post by **harry** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:59 pm

Looking at that hammer spring I'd say there wasn't enough heat to hurt any of the steel. That spring would have some amount of deflection if it got very hot.
Here is a place to start on parts: http://www.gun-parts.com/winchesterrifle/

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:05 pm

GREAT FIND, great story, Good luck on the restoration.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:44 pm

I'm in the rebuild it frame of mind.

The cost/value isnt really the issue to me. I've done a rescue or two, its a labor of love and enjoyment for the sake of the project. If I truly enjoy the project or the end reuslt, it was worth it to me, even if I may have been able to buy something else for similar or less. If its mostly hand work finishing, and some stock work you can do yourself, then the cost may not get crazy anyway. It will mean much more than something you bought finished and be more fun to shoot and use.

plowboy 45 · Post by **plowboy 45** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:08 pm

GO FOR IT !!!
It would be a shame not to, and almost unamerican

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:00 am

Definitely going to rebuild it! I enjoy doing that kind of thing. I have completely disassembled all my old Winchesters and cleaned the hardened oil and dirt out of them. That stuff turns to concrete. This isn't going to be much different. I sanded on some of the worst looking places last night and the pitting is very light. One area that looked bad turned out to be ripples left by the forging process with only light pitting. It looks like it will clean up nice. I need to get it soaking so I can get it apart.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:27 am

Careful hand polishing can produce some good results, without the typical ruined edges, screw holes and lettering of power buffer use. Dont worry too much about those forging marks, I've seen some of those marks on factory pristine examples in the Winchester museum. I think they lend a little character, even to excellent condition guns, speaking to the era they were made.

Should be a fun project.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:34 pm

Malamute wrote:I'm in the rebuild it frame of mind.

The cost/value isnt really the issue to me. I've done a rescue or two, its a labor of love and enjoyment for the sake of the project. If I truly enjoy the project or the end reuslt, it was worth it to me, even if I may have been able to buy something else for similar or less. If its mostly hand work finishing, and some stock work you can do yourself, then the cost may not get crazy anyway. It will mean much more than something you bought finished and be more fun to shoot and use.

So true.
That old shotgun pictured above was a $150 wallhanger. It was an old belgian damascus barrel trade gun. Even now that all the work is done it's probably worth $3-400 at best. Problem is I got about $2000 work in it now. I'm a sucker for those old side levers. This is the second one I've re-done.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:23 pm

This is a puzzle! I spent some time this morning disassembling the old rifle. It has been soaking for a few days and I got part of it apart. I have some stubborn screws so it is soaking some more. I was able to get the hammer screw out and get the lower tang off. I also got the locking bolt, bolt and carrier loosened up and the lever to bolt pin driven out. I got a case out of the magazine tube. This one burst and the bullet came out with it. I also got the case out of the chamber. This one is the puzzle. It is spiderwebbed with fractures and the primer was riveted into the firing pin hole. The case scraped on one side near the base coming out of the chamber. It is the lower case in the photos. I don't know why it fractured like that. I suppose it could have been old brittle brass.

The cases are headstamped "SUPER SPEED 30-30 WIN" and the bullet weighs 150 grains. This headstamp was used from about 1935 to 1970 so it doesn't help much as far as dating when the rifle was left on the mountain.

I still need to get the lower link screw and pin out and one carrier screw and the loading port screw. The loading port screw had a very shallow slot and I wiped it out with the screwdriver. Might have to drill that one out. The magazine plug screw won't budge either and one forend cap screw had the slot destroyed when I got it. I guess I will drill that one too. I will try to unscrew the barrel after it soaks some more. I am curious about what the chamber looks like.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:01 pm

really interesting.

interesting that the lead is still intact

is it wierd that there was a loaded round in the chamber when the gun was abandoned or lost?

that's going to be a great story

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:48 pm

Marc -- what a great find, the story might be as simple as a "nature" call, or a re-directed moment, then bingo..."where's my rifle", after an exhausted look, no gun, abandoned, then forgotten...look how long it took for your friend to find it. Ted Trueblood told a story about about an old rusted S&W N-Frame in .44spl. that he found hanging on a branch in the middle of no-where. As for me I've found three Swiss Army knives while deer hunting over the last 30-years... :)

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arjunky · Post by **arjunky** » Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:14 pm

Any human bones next to gun? Just sayin.

Byron

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:05 am

Hmm... A jacketed bullet.

Maybe that rifle hadn't been hanging there for quite so long.

Did the case on the one you pulled out of the mag tube fracture as you extracted it or was it already burst?

Looking back at your photos, was the mag tube bulged? Maybe it was one of the storied mag-tube detonations.

Could be that it was actually abandoned it while it was still smokin' by some newb who thought that he broke it with a hot load after he couldn't eject that brass from the chamber.

A mystery.

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:27 am

I would guess that the rifle was left loaded and the shell in the chamber went off in the fire same with the burst shell in the mag. The bore might of been rusted and high pressures resulted in the primer flowing into the hole. Its a beauty none the less and has a story that may never be known.
I have heard if you have the barrel relined they are as strong as they were when new because of the better steel in the liners. That may or may not be true. If it was the case it would mean just reheat treating the action and receiver parts.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:08 pm

I'm going to say that it was handloaded ammo. And I'd guess either a high primer in the last one in the tube or maybe not... But, as the shooter fired the one in the chamber, the one in mag bounced on the carrier and went off. Our shooter then dropped the gun and ran! If right handed, for the nearest medical attention, as that burst mag could have sent splinters all thru his left forearm.

I can't think of anything else that would be inside the action anywhere near a primer. The carrier should actually have been all the way down when the bolt was closed, with the last cartridge only touching the tab on the top of the link.

Got pictures of the back of the split case for any marks that might indicate what set its primer off?

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:31 pm

The mag tube is split from the receiver to just in front of the forend cap. The upper case in the photos was in the tube and it came out just as it looks. There is no primer in it and no marks on the base. There were more burst cases in the tube when it was found. The fellow that found it took those out. I saw it right after he found it and they were all burst too. There was another under the bolt inside the receiver that I mangled to get out. It was burst and doesn't have a primer either. I think the heat from the fire set the cartridges in the tube off. I don't know about the one in the chamber.

The heat from the fire could have set that one off too. If the ammo and rifle were hot you would have high pressure. The primer extruded into the firing pin hole because of the high pressure and if the rifle was loaded the the hammer was probably at half cock and didn't hold the firing pin against the primer either.

But there must have been something wrong with the rifle or ammo because there are hammer marks in the back of the receiver on both sides of the hammer. So as suggested maybe it wouldn't fire or it fired and couldn't be opened and somebody discarded it.

I got the nose cap screw out by making a new slot in the screw head. I have a small countersink that I used to drill a line of holes across the head and then heated it and Kroiled and it came out after it cooled. My buddy must have taken out the other nose caps screw because the threads are stripped. The metal is shiny where the threads used to be so it was done recently. I also removed the barrel and it came off normally. Four more stubborn screws to go!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:03 pm

If nothing else, you will have a beautiful wall hanger with a good story....

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:10 pm

Thanks Marc, that explains a lot.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:18 am

Marc,
Do you have an impact driver? That and a hand hollow ground bit to fit the screw slots and they should come out. I use a dremel and sanding drum to hollow grind. Sometimes I have had to impact them tighter then out a few times to clear them. Also, try some heat then shock them with water. The heat and quenching will expand and contract them some. Water will penetrate better than oil and will help dissolve the rust, too.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:37 pm

You don't know how long the rifle was there or how many fires it went through. Someone may have found it before and discarded it before you found it, years later. The date the rifle was made, the date the ammo was made, and the date the rifle was lost can be deduced to be in order, but you have no idea how much time passed between each of those three events.

It would be a mistake to assume that all the metal on the entire rifle endured the exact same heat in terms of temperature or duration.
No way would I shoot it unless all the important bits were heat treated. A forest or range fire is not in an oven, so the heat is not controlled. Some parts may have been subjected to 500 degrees and some to 3000 degrees, depending on how the fuel was arranged and how the wind was blowing.

Great find! I'm always amazed by these "rifle found on a mountain" stories. I know a guy in Austin who has a Burgess he found in Arizona, propped muzzle down against a rock in the desert mountains.

Nate C. · Post by **Nate C.** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:50 am

What an awesome thing to happen upon! I assume by "up in the mountains" you mean Los Padres NF? Whereabouts did you find it?

Whether or not it ever returns to functional status, congratulations on your find!

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:47 am

I don't have an impact driver but HF has them cheap so I will get one and try more heat and water. I have heard that water penetrates rust better than oil. Kroil is not living up to its advertising. I have been grinding driver bits to fit the slots and then chucking them in the drill press to put pressure on the bit. I have broken a bunch of bits. They are brittle.

Most of the parts look to be in good shape. The cartridge guides are badly rusted and the locking bolt looks rough but I can't tell how bad it is til I get it apart.

The rifle was found, not by me, just off Hwy 33 north of Ojai in the Los Padres. I don't remember exactly where and the fellow that found it has passed on. He told me where he found it but my memory is hazy.