In a lot of pain right now from a gun oil - any ideas?

[7.62 Precision]

So here is the deal. Several years back I was in Iraq and was sent some lubricant I was supposed to test. It apparently was an experimental stuff, and they were considering its use.

It was in a plain brown jar with a label made from two die-cut laser printer labels - just plain text printed with a printer. The labels said, "(Manufacturer's name) Elite Field Cleaner, Lubricant, and Protectant. Non-Toxic Biodegradable. Non-Flammable.

I messed with it a bit a couple of times, has a funny smell, seems to work.

Fast forward to today, I needed to saturate a shotgun with oil, opened the solvent cabinet and I had 4 bottles of CLP all empty, and can't find the one I know is still full. The shotgun needs something, since it is totally dry and will rust if exposed to the air. So I grabbed a bottle of this stuff and saturated the metal. I felt a stinging on my finger, and realized I had the smallest little surface cut, barely more than a scratch. No big deal. Finished up, washed my hands, and the cut was still stinging. Then I started to get a dull pain. Then the pain began to go down my finger and into my arm. My finger became stiff and the pain got worse. The finger feels hot and is a little swollen, the joints are stiff and so is my wrist. The next finger over became stiff in the joints and hurts. The pain is pretty intense. It is a steady pain in the whole finger now, more intense pain at the tip, with sudden spikes of sharp pain that are strong enough to make me grunt involuntarily. The second finger hurts in the joints and there is some pain in the wrist and up my arm. The cut, which is so small that you have to really look for it to even notice it, has a small, thin line of white puss along it, under the skin.

This went from the first sting to the intense pain in about 15 minutes. Any movement causes pain - typing this is torture, and I am not even using that finger.

I seem to vaguely remember an issue with this stuff causing a bit of pain before.

Anyone heard of this sort of thing? Anyone know what this stuff is that I was using? I have never seen it since and I figured it never went into production.

Don't know how I will sleep tonight.

[Grizz]

Prayers Up. sounds nasty.

Man, I'm thinking the minute clinic or equiv asap. almost sounds something like blood poison or psp, any chance there's another toxin? are there any red stripes running up the inside of your upper arm?

I like the clinic idea best, or maybe a fire station emt....

[BigSky56]

probably a type of penetrating solvent to carry the oil/lube like DMSO penetrates and you might have to lance the infected area and put a poultice on it to draw the chemical out, heavy duty rubber gloves are your friend when handling solvents, when I put DMSO on the horses legs I get that garlic taste in my mouth if I dont wear gloves . danny

[Rusty]

That sounds pretty intense. A call to the local ER might be in order.

Prayers up.

[gamekeeper]

That sounds pretty intense. A call to the local ER might be in order.

Prayers up.

+ 1.

[Tycer]

Tea bag. Steep a regular or black or green tea bag and apply it after it cools some.

[Tycer]

Poultice of charcoal. Natural is best. Charcoal capsules broken open will work. Even plain briquettes that do not have any starter will do.

[rjohns94]

Where's Doc when you need him? How did you sleep? How is it today? Trip to urgent care if this continues would be in order.

[octagon]

Call poison control center

Go to a Doctor, take a sample of the stuff

[jdad]

Instead of typing about it here you probably should have gone to the ER first, with the bottle. Issues with muscles, nerves, circulatory system, etc ....not good.

Cats have 9 lives, we don't. Keep us updated.

[AJMD429]

Instead of typing about it here you probably should have gone to the ER first, with the bottle. Issues with muscles, nerves, circulatory system, etc ....not good.

Cats have 9 lives, we don't. Keep us updated.

I think regular stuff is mostly organic solvents. Locally mostly neurotoxic thus the intense pain. Worried about infection since pus though. Needs actually LOOKED at by a doctor. Felt around on, & blood tests could help. Definitely take bottle. If they call Poison Control (they should) make SURE they stress this isn't "normal" Hoppes.

[Griff]

That sounds pretty intense. A call to the local ER might be in order.
Prayers up.

+ 1.

+2. Contact who sent it to you and get a list of ingredients. You might be allergic to one (or more).

[jnyork]

Instead of typing about it here you probably should have gone to the ER first, with the bottle. Issues with muscles, nerves, circulatory system, etc ....not good.

Cats have 9 lives, we don't. Keep us updated.

This.

[7.62 Precision]

Slept almost not at all last night, maybe an hour. Church will be rough today - we drive an hour each way to get to church, so stay at church all day.

Last night I washed it like crazy with water, with dish soap, with baking soda, whatever I could think of. The pain never extended further, no red lines, and the pus went away (never was much) but it hurt pretty bad all night and still does, but not nearly as bad. Finger is a little swollen, but the joints don't hurt quite as bad and I can bend it fully now.

I have found that the non-toxic and biodegradable solvents can be some of the weirdest, nastiest stuff out there.

I have seen certain non-toxic lubes etch the metal on a firearm when exposed to certain solvents, and I tried a biodegradable, water soluble cleaner that everyone recommends highly. Dropped a couple firearms in it, including a parkerized AK. Do you know that Century Arms uses some weird kind of paint to simulate parkerizing to cover rust and stuff? You will find that they coat parts of parkerized firearms that they allowed to rust, and this AK had two magazines that were totally coated with it, but I did not notice, since they were all oily, and dropped them in the tank. That black paint came of in flakes and specs and filled the tank. Everywhere it landed on a firearm, it etched the metal deeply. The stuff, once I read about it, was more dangerous to your skin than normal solvents, and you can't dump it anywhere safely, so I dumped the stuff and went back to lacquer thinner. I wear gloves anyway, and I can burn off any waste.

With petroleum-based stuff at least I know what I am getting into. The worst thing is, I went and got a pair of gloves, then moved them out of sight because they were in my way, and forgot to put them on.

[Sixgun]

7.62,
Possibly a call to Hoppes might help. Be assertive as I'm sure there are people there who have dealt with the same issue.

As you are an outdoors guy, I'm sure you can get that black salve that used on horses and cows. We have a mess of it here and I've personally used it for a few nasty infections I had.-----6

[Blaine]

7.62,
Possibly a call to Hoppes might help. Be assertive as I'm sure there are people there who have dealt with the same issue.

As you are an outdoors guy, I'm sure you can get that black salve that used on horses and cows. We have a mess of it here and I've personally used it for a few nasty infections I had.-----6

^^^^^ This.....soaking in a solution of hot as you can take it epsom salts could be effective, too....

[AJMD429]

I have found that the non-toxic and biodegradable solvents can be some of the weirdest, nastiest stuff out there.

Yep. Gotta love the 'environmentalists' and how often they are duped into endorsing stupid products, ideas, and political agendas...

[wecsoger]

You just jogged some very old memory cells...

GET THEE TO A DOCTOR OR EMERGENCY ROOM SOONEST!

So saying, it sounds exactly you you were exposed to hydroflouric acid, a component used in car (tire/wheel) cleaners. Symptoms sound correct.

Why it would have been in that stuff I don't know, but you ought to be researching it. If I'm wrong, I'll be glad to say so, but I would err on the side of caution.

[FWiedner]

Uh... You poisoned yourself.

Waiting to see if it 'went away' overnight was possibly the... well it wasn't a smart move, IMO. The immediate symptoms may not be all there is to it.

Seek the assistance of a medical professional and or a poison control center. It never hurts to ask.

Hope you're okay.

[mark]

Here is a MSDS, could be the same stuff you were using

http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/MSDS/ ... efault.pdf

I'd be off to the doctor, asap.

Best of luck, Mark

[Tycer]

I must be one dumb #%#. I saw poison, infection, and inflammation and I thought remove, cleanse and antihistamine. Every other person here saw E-room.

I guess I must just have had dumb luck these past decades using these old wive's fables remedies. Silly me.

There's a time for currently accepted medicine I'm told.

[vancelw]

I just assumed the ER was too far away......

I know I hate spending 6000 dollars, only to be told to go see a real Dr. on Monday.

[Blaine]

I must be one dumb #%#. I saw poison, infection, and inflammation and I thought remove, cleanse and antihistamine. Every other person here saw E-room.

I guess I must just have had dumb luck these past decades using these old wive's fables remedies. Silly me.

There's a time for currently accepted medicine I'm told.

Nope...I usually wait until I've given it all my best efforts...Only once did I go in, and the Doc said aside from a tetanus booster, I was doing it just fine....keep up the good work.

[Rusty]

I will relate this story. My brother in law who has now passed on was working as a shop foreman in a heavy truck shop. One day while changing oil in a truck he got one of those tiny slivers of metal in his finger that can come from a drain plug. After a week, when his finger had gone past swelling to the red streak stage he called my wife the family RN to see if she would look at it. She hit the roof because he waited so long to call her. She sent him off to the ER post haste. They gave him a bed and IV antibiotics for 3 days. After that the Doc says, sorry Pete to save yer life we're going to have to take 1/2 the finger off. They did and he got better.
Still praying for you brother.

[7.62 Precision]

You just jogged some very old memory cells...
GET THEE TO A DOCTOR OR EMERGENCY ROOM SOONEST!
So saying, it sounds exactly you you were exposed to hydroflouric acid, a component used in car (tire/wheel) cleaners. Symptoms sound correct.
Why it would have been in that stuff I don't know, but you ought to be researching it. If I'm wrong, I'll be glad to say so, but I would err on the side of caution.

There are two reasons I would expect that it wouldn't be in this stuff. The first is that it is labeled non-toxic, and the second is that it is a rust remover and rust inhibitor, and a rust remover is not a good thing for blued firearms

On the other hand, since this stuff was obviously not a production product, who know how accurate the label is - I'm not about to drink the stuff.
Since it was intended for military use, removing bluing might not be such a concern.

The symptoms fit. Delayed symptoms, intense internal pain, little to no surface damage. This is the closest to an explanation I have seen so far.

So are there other acids that cause similar effects? Maybe an organic acid? I will call Hoppe's in the morning and try to figure this stuff out.

Could the oil have reacted with or activated something else?

The symptoms are:
Stinging pain starting at the small cut, followed by pain spreading out from there. Joints began hurting and became stiff in the finger, then wrist. Pain moved slightly up the arm, with the most intense pain at the location of the cut. Pain was a strong ache, increasing and decreasing, with somewhat regular spikes of intense sharp burning pain. There was not really any noticeable discoloration or surface skin damage.

After some time, the joints in the second finger became stiff and sore, then the side of the second finger began to hurt. The first finger was slightly swollen. By the next morning, the thumb was hurting pretty bad. The thumb was also slightly swollen. Joints still hurt, but the first finger did not hurt as bad as the night before. Skin on the first finger pad and thumb pad is slightly yellowish to grayish, looks a bit shiny. out from there there are areas that are slightly yellow. Feels like I am feeling things through a rubber glove. if any of the areas are pressed, it hurts - not the skin, but inside.

[7.62 Precision]

I must be one dumb #%#. I saw poison, infection, and inflammation and I thought remove, cleanse and antihistamine. Every other person here saw E-room.

I guess I must just have had dumb luck these past decades using these old wive's fables remedies. Silly me.

There's a time for currently accepted medicine I'm told.

Nope...I usually wait until I've given it all my best efforts...Only once did I go in, and the Doc said aside from a tetanus booster, I was doing it just fine....keep up the good work.

Another consideration for me, my healthcare is through the VA. This means that they start each year with a finite budget, and all expenses are drawn from that budget. If I waste resources, then someone who truly needs them might go without. Also, ultimately all of that money comes out of taxpayers pockets (or do we borrow it from China?) so if I waste it, I'm wasting your money. I can't pay out of pocket, I have no money right now. Will have money later, hopefully won't need it for this issue then.

[Grizz]

I get that. old fisherman remedy, hot soak in epsom salts, as much as can dissolve in water, as hot as you can tolerate, without scalding of course.

I treat myself as well, so far I've lived through a broken toe, broken finger, and broken shoulder without outside assistance. I did a root canal at sea. once. but I did go to the hospital when I assaulted myself with a chainsaw.....

get well Mr.

[piller]

If you can find drawing salve, also known as ichthammol, it is worth a try. In the Army, I just covered each and every cut in black pepper from the MRE. Never had an infection from a cut or scrape when in the field. I have no experience with this type of chemical reaction.

[Grizz]

you covered cuts in black pepper?

how does that work? what does it do?

curious

[Blaine]

you covered cuts in black pepper?

how does that work? what does it do?

curious

https://www.organicfacts.net/health-ben ... epper.html

I'd heard of this (I use LOTS of black pepper) but never focused on it....

[7.62 Precision]

Because the symptoms were the same as what would be expected from hydrofluoric acid or maybe other acids, my wife went out last night and got some milk of magnesia for the calcium gluconate to see what it would do. She was looking for Mylanta, but they didn't sell it.

I filled the three fingers of a medical glove up and stuck my hand in it. After some time I looked at the glove and thought I had gotten something on it - there was something dark brown on it. As I looked closer I realized that the brown was inside the glove - everywhere I had pain, the white milk of magnesia had turned brown.

Most of the pain is gone now, but I have a few small places that are still hurting. I think whatever it is is burning internally and moves pretty readily through flesh. You can see now exactly where I have felt the burning, as there is a bit of brown or yellow discoloration in this areas. After the initial pain up into my arm, all of the pain has stayed in the first finger and the finger and thumb next to it. Also, that first finger now has only one small area that is still hurting, the second finger has no pain, and the thumb has only a couple spots that hurt now.

I might try the milk of magnesia again, as well as some other stuff, like tea tree oil and epsom salts to try to draw this stuff out.

I always have both latex and nitrile gloves on hand, it was pretty dumb to fail to use them.

[Ray Newman]

Had a reaction once to some solvent. Not anywhere as bad as yours, but it did put the fear of gawd in me.

Now I wear these 7 mil blue Nitrile gloves from Harbor Fright--AKA Harbor Freight:

http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsea ... ril+gloves

Found that 7 mil works better than the 5 mil, never tried the 9 mil. They are even cheaper when present one of the ubiquitous Harbor Freight discount coupons.

[vancelw]

I always have both latex and nitrile gloves on hand, it was pretty dumb to fail to use them.

Yep. There have been many time where I have realized, to late, that I forgot to put my gloves on
I use them mainly to keep my hands clean, so I can peel them off and handle things without contaminating them. Most any kind of solvent permeates gloves readily, unless you find that 'right' material that is impervious to whatever you're using.

I keep the thick Nylon gloves handy. I can't remember the mil thickness, but they are so thick that only 50 fit tightly in a box and they are almost impossible to tear.

I never would have expected a blood poisoning type reaction to a solvent, but I wear gloves around any kind of blood for that reason.

[7.62 Precision]

I alternate between nitrile and latex, and different thicknesses, depending what I am working with. Mineral spirits will break down latex, lacquer thinner and DuraCoat products will kill nitrile. Paint strippers often need heavier rubber gloves.

Edit: May need to clarify that I'm talking about gloves . . .

[walks with gun]

Your danged lucky you didn't have too pee immediately after applying that oil, yahza.

[Ysabel Kid]

Your danged lucky you didn't have too pee immediately after applying that oil, yahza.

+1

And thank God you didn't rub your eyes!

I sure hope that you get to feeling better soon. Prayers up for you for sure!!!

[AJMD429]

At this point I'd probably take a boat-load-and-a-half of B-Complex vitamins and sublingual B-12. Ten times the 'recommended daily allowance' of those is not a problem for a week or so. You do NOT want to do high doses like that for vitamins A, D, E, or K. Even vitamin C in excess of 1000mg or so for too long isn't always a good idea. The reason for all this is that B-12, and B-6, and methyl-folate are all good for nerve/vascular healing. If you are not a MTHFR-mutant ( ) you should make enough methyl-folate if you take a bunch of folic acid ( 400 mcg or 0.4 mg is the 'normal' daily dose but ten times that for a week or two is ok as well).

[Paladin]

Call poison control center

Go to a Doctor, take a sample of the stuff

I concur, The VA can afford it and you earned it.
I got into this late and I hope all comes out to a happy ending.

[7.62 Precision]

Whatever it was that entered the cut seems to have been burning me internally, but not the skin, which fits how certain acids act when extremely diluted.
So I while I can't treat myself intravenously , I put milk of magnesia into a latex glove and put the glove on the to try to see if that helped. Up to that point there was only a little bit of discoloration (a slight yellowish tint and greyish tint) and a little btit of swelling, just tons of pain inside my hand.
After soaking for a bit, the milk of magnesia became became discoloured in every area that the pain was most noticeable. Obviously it was drawing something out. In those areas my skin also turned brown

I got the stuff in my cut on Saturday afternoon. within a short time I was in a lot of pain and slept maybe an hour on Saturday night due to pain.

I could feel the stuff moving through my hand - in the finger with the cut first, then into my hand and arm, but then moving mostly into the tips of the finger and thumb on either side of the finger with the cut, where it continued to burn until Monday morning, decreasingly. On Sunday evening, after reading advice here, I treated it with the milk of magnesia. By midday Monday, there were just two spots that still burned from time to time, and then it stopped, leaving just residual pain, the result of damage, I assume. Monday evening I soaked the hand again, and more brown stuff came out.


Here you can see the stains starting on the inside of the glove.
My fingers are not all the way to the tips of the glove.




You can see the discoloration in my hand:


Here you can just see the tiny cut that let the oil in:




I already had folic acid, and following the doc's advice above, my wife piked up sublingual B12 and B complex tablets today.

[Blaine]

I looked up some pics about minor hydrofluoric acid burns....they certainly look about the same. We used that as an etch for microchip wafers. It will go down to the bone (attracted to calcium) and damage it....might want to get an Xray to check for bone damage....

[J Miller]

7.62,

I agree with those that say to get to the Dr. You've been chemically poisoned. You don't want any lingering problems so just go. You don't have to be scared, and the Dr will give you a lolly pop

Joe

[Tycer]

So I'm still waiting to hear what Hoppe's says.

[1894c]

Your danged lucky you didn't have too pee immediately after applying that oil, yahza.

7.62 -- prayers sent...that's horrible stuff -- the above quote just made my day, reminded me when my little brother got into some poison oak, he unfortunately discovered his affliction in the nether regions first... :O

7.62 -- by the way were you throwing down some gang signs..?

fingers.jpg

middle-finger.jpg

[J Miller]

From the beginning of 7.62s torment I've been having a memory try to surface. It finally did last night.
Back when I was in Phoenix about 97 or so we had a choice of gasolines. Some stations put alcohol in their gas, some put in MTBE. Of the two the gas diluted with MTBE ran better in our non-computerized vehicles. So I bought it from the local Exon station.
I found out by accident it made an excellent cleaner for oil on the concrete driveway. Pour some on the oil spot, let it evaporate, and the oil spot was gone.

Anyway I forget what MTBE is, I used to know what the letters stood for but don't remember anymore. What I do remember is it contains a nasty solvent. Highly toxic regardless of what the govt or oil company says.

My direct experience came when I was cleaning some grimy car parts and got some on my hands. Basically the same thing 7.62 did. It got in through a cut and I ended up with the exact same symptoms as he did. Swelling, burning, sore joints, the feeling of wearing a rubber glove, the crinkling of the skin ( see his pics ). Nasty, nasty stuff we get into.

I also learned that from then on I used rubber gloves.

7.62, I should have gone to the Dr. but I survived .... I think. Not sure though.

Take care of yourself.

Joe

[PriseDeFer]

Wow. You were poisoned. You should or should have gotten to or called a doctor. Did you get the MSDS, Material Safety Data Sheet, from the manufacturer? Internet discussion forums are for after action reports.

[7.62 Precision]

I thought that on a forum I could find someone whoa was not a doctor, but played on on the internet.

Actually, on this forum, there were people with real experience that was quite helpful, as well as a real doctor.

[williamranks]

Somewhere on the bottle or box should be an MSDS number or Mil Spec number or both. Post it and we'll see how much trouble you're in.

[PriseDeFer]

Whew. Glad you're still talking and typing 7.62. An allergic reaction can flare up beyond control sometimes, if that's what it was.
I switched to using Ballistol on the handguns I carry because it seems to have been used for a long time by people who expect it to be non toxic. Medicinal Grade Mineral Oil for lubrication and Petroleum Jelly for corrosion in storage or wet climes are other possibilities.
I envy your location, Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun. Do you go around wearing a headlamp all the time and are you on TV with all the rest of Alaska?

[7.62 Precision]

Whew. Glad you're still talking and typing 7.62. An allergic reaction can flare up beyond control sometimes, if that's what it was.
I switched to using Ballistol on the handguns I carry because it seems to have been used for a long time by people who expect it to be non toxic. Medicinal Grade Mineral Oil for lubrication and Petroleum Jelly for corrosion in storage or wet climes are other possibilities.
I envy your location, Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun. Do you go around wearing a headlamp all the time and are you on TV with all the rest of Alaska?

I suddenly have to move, will update later about all this. Got the MSDS sheet from Bushnell but have not had a chance to look at it yet. I was on the Tougher in Alaska show when we blew up a railroad tunnel - for all of 1.5 seconds of fame. The camera crews were stressing me out.