Old West trip

greasy dan · Post by **greasy dan** » Sat May 31, 2014 1:45 pm

You are the smartest collective group of loyal Americans I know of, and since my Dad is not around anymore,
I look to all of You for answers to tough questions.

I will be visiting Vegas, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, then back to Vegas... in about a month.
Thinking of taking a Lever and a matching SAA.
Question 1: Will there be a problem transporting them through any Reservation territories.??
Question 2: I have a valid CCW. Any problems there.??
Question 3: Anyone know a FFL dealer in Sedona who I could ship my pieces to, for me to pickup when I arrive.??
Thanks in advance.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Sat May 31, 2014 2:13 pm

You've got pretty much a free hand here in AZ. Reservations only become problematic if you decide your going to stay there.

The main of the wikipedia is here and links to most of the relevant statues. Specific tribal law posted below, though i would certainly recommend reviewing the entire page.

All Arizona tribes recognize federal law, including the "safe passage" provision of the federal Firearm Owners Protection Act Act (FOPA). FOPA provides that, notwithstanding any state, tribal, or local law, and while making a continuous journey, a person who is not a prohibited possessor is entitled to transport a firearm or ammunition for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm or ammunition if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle.[14] In vehicles without a trunk, the unloaded firearm or ammunition must be in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.[14] Recent U.S. Court of Appellate rulings have confirmed that FOPA`s protections only apply to unloaded firearms not readily accessible to the traveler, and many tribal governments have strict laws with respect to firearms being carried or transported on tribal lands.[14][15][15][16] For example, in the event of a vehicle stop, Navajo Nation police will seize any loaded firearm found to be accessible to the driver or passenger.[15][16][17] and confiscated firearms are not returnable unless the owner can establish proof of ownership of the firearm and ammunition by presenting a bill of sale or other evidence at the police station at a later date.[17]

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat May 31, 2014 2:15 pm

If you shoot them on the Mescalero res. without buying a camping /fishing permit, you could have problems. ( NM )
If you get pulled over on the Navajo res. ( NM & Az. ) you need to have proof of purchase.
I have only gone to Sedona once in my life.
My girls wanted to see the harmonic convergence.
The only thing I saw converge was a Chevy pickup and a Toyota Corola, it was not very harmonic.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat May 31, 2014 2:35 pm

Can I ask why you'd ship them to Sedona?

If you're an out of state resident, you can't take possession of a handgun from an FFL out of your state of residence, even if "you already own it". There may be an exception if you have sent it for repair or modification, but they may have to send it back to your original shipping address rather than hand it over in person to an out of state resident. I don't know about that one.

Utah has a funny little quirk in their carry law. A revolver has to have the chamber under the hammer empty as well as the next one coming up, and self loaders had to have an empty chamber. I don't know about long guns and the chamber being empty. With a CCW permit, I believe it may negate that law. I believe all the mountain states don't have a cow with loaded guns in vehicles in general, though a round in the chamber of rifles may raise eyebrows in some locals. Check the various states laws online and see. I've travelled all over the mountain states with loaded guns.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat May 31, 2014 2:41 pm

If you're worried, keep them unloaded in a locked gun case. Ammo separate.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sat May 31, 2014 2:49 pm

.

FWIW, under US Federal Law, it's entirely legal to ship your own firearms (long AND hand guns) to yourself in another state - no need to ship to an FFL, just an adressee who can hold the un-opened parcel(s) for your arrival.

http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/indus ... 10-qas.pdf

6. May I lawfully ship a firearm to myself in a different State ?

Any person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in the care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity.
The package should be addressed to the owner “in the care of” the out-of-State resident.
Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner must not open the package or take possession of the firearm..

.

92&94 · Post by **92&94** » Sat May 31, 2014 5:15 pm

Pete44ru beat me to it

You shouldn't have any trouble with state CCW based on this map:
http://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry ... _maps.html
Last I heard, you need no permit to CCW in AZ, just be legal to possess it. AZ still issues permits to residents in the interest of reciprocity with other states.

Can't help with the rez. I like Blaine's advice though, if there's any doubt I don't think you could go far wrong that way.

greasy dan · Post by **greasy dan** » Sat May 31, 2014 5:21 pm

Malamute: We are flying into Vegas, arriving after 7pm, then leaving EARLY the following morning for Sedona. Thus, the reason for "Sedona". I have had a CCW permit for 10-years, and kinda like having it with me. I feel naked without it.
I was unaware of any Rule saying I could Not pick up my piece from a FFL dealer in another state. I have heard that I could ship it to MYSELF in another state, without going through a FFL dealer. I just thought it would be "safer" to go through an FFL.

I have "carried" on flights using Checked Luggage and the proper procedure. Just never have done that with a Lever.

Thanks.

greasy dan · Post by **greasy dan** » Sat May 31, 2014 5:27 pm

Mescalero: Proof of purchase might be a problem, as I paid cash for pieces I have bought, and never worried about keeping receipts. Always believed in Cash, a hand-shake, and a smile.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sat May 31, 2014 7:35 pm

greasy dan wrote:
Always believed in Cash, a hand-shake, and a smile.

Sounds like Sheriff Buford T. Justice

..........

.

Centennial · Post by **Centennial** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:20 pm

There is really no reason to linger on reservations. Make sure you have plenty of fuel to get elsewhere. Don't let your firearms be seen. In AZ, NM, they can be out of sight. AZ is Constitutional Carry. NM is CCW or open carry. Nev is CCW or open carry. Find a chart online of the current laws. Reservations are a different jurisdiction and story.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat May 31, 2014 8:36 pm

here's a site that I use: http://handgunlaw.us/

scroll down to RV carry and you will see the options for unlicensed carry in various states with the laws. there are some states where you can leave a loaded gun in plain sight, and others where you can have a loaded gun concealed... it's all in there.

when I travel I plan my routes based on this map and the concealed carry one, and boycott the no-liberty-here states.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat May 31, 2014 9:23 pm

Just remember, a reservation is a sovereign nation; and thier laws apply.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:08 pm

greasy dan wrote:Malamute: We are flying into Vegas, arriving after 7pm, then leaving EARLY the following morning for Sedona. Thus, the reason for "Sedona". I have had a CCW permit for 10-years, and kinda like having it with me. I feel naked without it.
I was unaware of any Rule saying I could Not pick up my piece from a FFL dealer in another state. I have heard that I could ship it to MYSELF in another state, without going through a FFL dealer. I just thought it would be "safer" to go through an FFL.

I have "carried" on flights using Checked Luggage and the proper procedure. Just never have done that with a Lever.

Thanks.

OK, that makes sense. Theres the "send to self in care of somebody" thing if you know someone reliable there*, or take them as checked baggage. Shipping guns isn't cheap any more. Mail is least expensive, but I don't know if they do the send to self thing, and not handguns unless to/from a dealer.

The not getting your guns from a dealer is the same as buying out of state. You can generally buy a long gun out of state, so long as the gun is legal in your home state, but not handguns.

I've done the ship to self thing several times, mostly when travelling to Alaska, but once when I travelled by train and only wanted to deal with a day pack as carry on. I shipped a carbine and my clothes and some camp gear when I went cross country to buy a truck once. In your situation, I think I'd take them as checked luggage, maybe with the stock taken off the rifle to make it shorter and less gun-like.

* and they need to be aware that its not legal for them to open the package.

greasy dan · Post by **greasy dan** » Sat May 31, 2014 10:26 pm

GRIZZ:... Thanks. That site was mighty helpful.

mark08 · Post by **mark08** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:21 pm

On airlines. Have firearm in a locked,ASA approved case and lock, unloaded and declared as a firearm to the airline clerk.. Check-in at a kiosk? you will be asked if baggage is special, like sporting equipment(skis, golf clubs, guns etc) just push the yes button. NO AMMO.. PERIOD. Counts as one piece of baggage. I nor any of my friends have had problems, of course, We have not tried to carry a concealed loaded firearm though a security check point!!!!!!. Those are the stories you hear about. I have friends who go to Canada hunting at least twice a year. They have not had any USA nor Canadian problems as long as ammo was not involved. Canada has folks who want to sell you ammo. So leave yours at home or you will leave it a the border!!!! One of my friends has a lever gun that he puts in a locking leather scabbard with a suitcase lock. He travels the country hunting eight moths of the year. He has no problems except he has put a large tag on that scabbard to deter airline thieves. The tag works!!!!! Says something like "my other guns are...... two legged varmints are fun too".

So I would go to my LGS make sure my case is ASA/airline approved with a ASA/airline lock. Unload the rifle. put in the case, lock it ,check it and go.

K1500 · Post by **K1500** » Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:20 pm

The proof of ownership via receipt is a new one to me in the Navajo nation, and may be a good reason the skip that part of the trip. Of course, they sell blank receipt books at Office Depot...

greasy dan · Post by **greasy dan** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:37 am

mark08: Thanks. Good info.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:46 am

is the no ammo thing a new thing?

I quit flying when the gestapo got handy, but I transported guns and ammo to and from alaska and probably other places as well. the ammo went into the checked bag away from the rifle. they were always very polite about it and MADE SURE none of my luggage got lost, and made sure to get it to me as soon as it came off of the plane. but that was then, maybe the regs have changed again.....

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:54 am

I haven't heard of any issues with ammo and flying other than its supposed to be in factory boxes or similar type boxes for the transport. If its in a separate bag or case than the guns, they may be happier, but I don't know if that's a rule.

As far as the Canadian border, which I don't think has any bearing on this thread, they don't allow hollow point handgun ammo. Never ever heard of problems with any other type other than limits on amounts, which were 2000 rds last I knew.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:50 pm

As far as the Canadian border, which I don't think has any bearing on this thread, they don't allow hollow point handgun ammo.

gotta love enlightened regulations, they only want pass-thru's, I suppose so it's easier to clean the wound out with a ramrod and salt...., and be certain that skull shots cause hydraulic explosions. very thoughtful of them.. . . ,

greasy dan · Post by **greasy dan** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:20 pm

Better late than Never... If any of you are interested in pictures of our "old West" trip, I posted the pictures on my FBook page under Albums, Dan & Kathy's Big Adventure, parts 1 thru 22. I am listed as Dan Rockett.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:39 pm

Out of sight out of mind. I am 74 years old and have never gave a reason to have my vehicle searched. I read this every day on gun chat sites about people worrying about transporting guns. If you drive sensible, dont have corks in your ears, a purple mohawk, so many tatt`s that they cant see the color of your skin, why do you think that you might be shook down? Maybe I am just boring to look at and that's why I never had trouble. Yeah, I suppose you could have a rollover, get knocked unconscious and some trooper go through your stuff to see who to notify, but even then if your clean otherwise odd`s are you would skate.

plowboy 45 · Post by **plowboy 45** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:39 pm

Would love to see them here, I don't know how to do facebook
But I understand if you ain't got time to puttem here

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:20 pm

Malamute wrote:I haven't heard of any issues with ammo and flying other than its supposed to be in factory boxes or similar type boxes for the transport. If its in a separate bag or case than the guns, they may be happier, but I don't know if that's a rule.

As far as the Canadian border, which I don't think has any bearing on this thread, they don't allow hollow point handgun ammo. Never ever heard of problems with any other type other than limits on amounts, which were 2000 rds last I knew.

I've flown several times with handguns and long guns. Ammo can go in the same container as the firearm. The firearms just has to be unloaded. With handguns I just leave the loaded magazines next to the firearm. With a rifle I place the box of factory ammo in the rifle case. They just don't want loose rounds rolling around. Flying out of the country is a whole different issue.
LAX actually opened and checked it. Most just tell you to sign a form declaring it's unloaded and place a tag inside it saying its declared. Takes about a minute.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:03 am

No problems in Wyoming, on or off the Rez so long as you follow Fishy Game laws...

greasy dan · Post by **greasy dan** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:05 pm

To "plowboy 45"... As much as I would like to post pictures, I don't think I will, as we took over 8,000 pictures and posted at least 75% of them on FBook.

InTheWoods · Post by **InTheWoods** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:40 pm

mark08 wrote:On airlines. Have firearm in a locked,ASA approved case and lock, unloaded and declared as a firearm to the airline clerk.. Check-in at a kiosk? you will be asked if baggage is special, like sporting equipment(skis, golf clubs, guns etc) just push the yes button. NO AMMO.. PERIOD. Counts as one piece of baggage. I nor any of my friends have had problems, of course, We have not tried to carry a concealed loaded firearm though a security check point!!!!!!. Those are the stories you hear about. I have friends who go to Canada hunting at least twice a year. They have not had any USA nor Canadian problems as long as ammo was not involved. Canada has folks who want to sell you ammo. So leave yours at home or you will leave it a the border!!!! One of my friends has a lever gun that he puts in a locking leather scabbard with a suitcase lock. He travels the country hunting eight moths of the year. He has no problems except he has put a large tag on that scabbard to deter airline thieves. The tag works!!!!! Says something like "my other guns are...... two legged varmints are fun too".

So I would go to my LGS make sure my case is ASA/airline approved with a ASA/airline lock. Unload the rifle. put in the case, lock it ,check it and go.

By ASA, do you mean TSA? If so, my understanding is that you are NOT to use a TSA lock on the gun case itself. Only YOU should have the key or combo to the lock. This is what the TSA recommends and what most of the airline websites recommend. This is only the only exception to the TSA required lock that I am aware of. Some folks have run into contradictory information when arriving at the airport (due to personnel ignorance), so it may be best to have an extra TSA lock with you as a backup, but (by regulation) you should not need it. See:

http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information ... ammunition

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/0 ... with-guns/

http://www.sportsafield.com/content/onl ... ammunition

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