454 Casull VS 45/70

Buckeye · Post by **Buckeye** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:33 pm

Oh boy this is gonna open a can of worms... I've been a Die-Hard 45/70 fan for a long time ..and have handloaded for this grand round for 15 + yr.s I recently purchased a Puma 20in barreled SS in 454 Casull which as many of you guys know operates at 60,000 to 62,000 PSI,and fits in to a small and light package. and delivers 300gr. bullets to 2100fps. But with Hi-Tech bullets such as the Nosler 260gr. pushed to 2300 fps. and the 250 gr. 454 DPX which is a total copper HP that retains 100% of its weight and can be pushed to 2300 fps makes the little Puma a true Big Game rifle able to bring down any beast on earth..

I have handloaded the 45/70 long enough to realize the old soldier can handle much heavier bullets... and push them at a good Vel.

But I also understand with todays technology the weight of the bullet is not as important as it once was,it has alot to do with bullet constuction and expansion at certain Vel.s
The super strong Puma 92 and the high pressure 454 Casull makes a great team.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:10 pm

Here is the beauty of the .454 in a carbine:

It will use bullets of the same diameter as your .45 pistol.

It will roughly equal the old .45 Gov't round, with cast bullets up to 350 grains.

It will roughly equal the .444 Marlin with mid-weight jacketed bullets.

It will carry more rounds than any .45-70.

The .454 is more efficient with smokeless.

The .454 carbine is generally shorter and handles quicker.

I am not convinced that "with todays technology the weight of the bullet is not as important as it once was,it has alot to do with bullet constuction and expansion at certain Vel.s " Weight is still as important as it ever was if you want to bore a big, straight hole through very large and/or potentially dangerous game- and from any angle available. There are applications where a stout .45-70 and 400+ grains of hardcast bullet, still trumps the .454 Casull.

Fortunately, or unfortunately according to your perspective, most of us will never stand in one of those places.

lever-4-life · Post by **lever-4-life** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:14 pm

sarge summed it up!

Buckeye · Post by **Buckeye** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:22 pm

360gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast @ 1850 to 1900 Fps from a 454 92 Puma the little Puma can push the big hardcast ,not as heavy or as fast as the 45/70 , but pushes a big heavy to poke holes in buffalo.
But I've gotta 45/70 if I ever need to shoot a rampaging Water Buffalo here in East TN.

86er · Post by **86er** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:22 pm

I'm repeating what was already said in a different way:

Lighter bullets may be pushed faster to give flatter trajectory, but they will not penetrate more than a heavier bullet with a proportionate velocity.

Most of the bullets available are designed for pistol velocities. At rifle velocities, especially extremes, the performance will vary greatly.

The high operating pressure is something of a negative consideration to a PH that relies on a firearm/cartridge combo in dangerous situations.

I agree that properly loaded it can take anything walking with good shot placement and range consideration but it can't replace a 45-70 when the need for heavy bullets, large holes and maximum penetration and knockdown are required.

Buckeye · Post by **Buckeye** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:56 pm

86'er I agree with alot what you say ,When refering to heavy bullets in the 45/70 the 400 gr. Hard cast pushed to only 1650 -1800 Fps .will totally penetrate a Buffalo at any angle ,Why does this bullet penetrate so well ,not its weight but its Hardcast construction ,a bullet can weigh alot and be constucted with soft lead a penatrate very badly.
Constuction of a bullet is as important as weight ..Idealy a well constucted
long bullet is what is needed. With increased weight means increased length.
A Nosler 260gr. pushed to 2300 fps is a formable bullet designed for the 454. The bullet is designed with weight retention in mind ,Weight & weight retention + vel. = penetration Not just weight alone. As for the total Copper Barnes bullet it is 250 gr.s but is long for its weight and loses very little of its weight ...this bullet was designed for the 454...
Bullet technology has come along way in recent years ..

86er · Post by **86er** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:35 pm

Buckeye - I love your choice of the 454.

I don't want to get you off topic but I want to share this publicly. I have heard a million times that a heavy hardcast will penetrate a buffalo,etc, etc. I have now taken 39 large bovine myself or with my clients. My partner Richard has 60. Very rarely does even a heavy hardcast bullet go completely through a buffalo. Usually, it can go through behind the ribs broadside, and often when the range is 50 yards or less it endures more trying angles. However in almost 100 buffalo, we have seen heavy cast bullets completely penetrate about 10% of the time. The most personal example is a 1580 pound water buffalo I shot with 430gr hardcast, 45-70 at around 1750 fps. I hit it one broadside, twice going away next to the tail and twice head on into the brisket (when it laid up I ran around in front of it). Only two completely exited and the best I could tell was the broadside shot and one from front to rear. The truth is that heavy hardcast at a good velocity could completely penetrate a buffalo stem to stern and sometimes do.

Your 454 loaded properly can do most anything you'd ask of it or a 45-70. I have increasingly seen more and more on our bear hunts and exotic hunts. The loads that have been most impressive are the 335 and 360 gr bullets at 1500+ fps. Put a Punch bullet in this cartrige and you've up it more than a couple of notches on penetrating ability. On a recent hunt our client shot a 300gr Punch bullet through Zebra, Blue Wildebeast and lengthwise through a lechwe.

Good luck with it and post some pictures when you get to use it!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:35 am

I thought long and hard about going with a .454 Rossi instead of a .357 Rossi - for the very reasons mentioned.

When I lived in Alaska I would have killed for a .454 Carbine to go with my FA.

I think I drove Jim West to distraction with my incessant questions and comments about it.

Too bad he didn't get his '02 developed before I left.

I think that the other place where the .45-70 should/must out perform the .454 is in absolute terminal range. Somehow I just don't see the .454 being useful out to the ranges a good .45-70 can reach - again, especialy with the heavier bullets.

But Man, would a Stainless .454 Rossi be good for the Alaskan Bush...