Consensus on 9mm for HD

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:44 am

Bruce Scotts thread on getting a Browning Hi Power got me to thinking. And of course that brought on a headache

.

I am a big bore fan from way back. About the only mid bore hand gun caliber I've considered for self or home defense is the .357 Mag. Now I'm going to ask a question from this body of more experienced people a question.

What is your experience / opinion on keeping a 9mm such as the Browning Hi Power or similar as a HD weapon?

Joe

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:16 am

Actually Joe, I think there are better rounds. .45 ACP comes to mind immediately but I will admit I keep a Smith 6906 or a Walther P-1 on the head of the bed and the wife keeps her Glock 39 in her car. All loaded with Winchester 147 grain HP. I've only stopped a 'possum with one but it worked just fine on Brer Possum. My truck or the tractor when I'm in it has a 1911 on board.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:20 am

A LONG WAYS BETTER 'N' NUTTIN, JOSE !!! MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THIS: IF YOU CAN SHOOT ANYTHING---ANYTHING!!!---WILL WORK. AND BACK WHEN, I TOOK SHOOTING CALLS ON DANG NEAR EVERYTHING. IT WAS AMAZING !!!

86er · Post by **86er** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:20 am

The current debate on caliber effectiveness similar to Ford/Chevy or Winchester/Marlin. I have a personal experience that sticks with me and affects my decision. In the City Where I lived the Police Dept had about 500 officers. From 90-93 they had 9mm pistols and shot 15 people of which they were hit from 3 - 14 times and 3 died. From 94-97 the police switched to .40 cal and shot 11 people of which were hit from 2 - 7 times and all but 1 died. That one was shot above the knee twice. To me, this factual observation negated the claim that the smaller calibers are easier to shoot accurately since the total #of rounds went down and hits went up with the larger caliber. Training did not change, just guns, caliber and bullet design. The same department issues 45ACP to ERT Team (SWAT). They used less hits per person to stop them and less overall round fired than the 40's demonstrated over a ten year period. The officers with the 45's did have a higher level of pistol training so that result may be skewed somewhat. Anyway, this wasn't some story - I knew these guys and girls, heard the news as it happened and heard the recounts of events. It left a strong impression with me and shaped my pistol decisions. That being said, today's bullet technology has changed for the better across the board. Lots of civilians use a 9mm successfully to defend life and property all the time. The Hi-Power is one of my favorite pistols! Easy to shoot, reliable, comfortable to carry. If you love the pistol I'd invest in the best modern ammo that proves reliable and sleep soundly at night.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:27 am

I had a Browning High Power for years. The biggest thing I killed with it was a raccoon. Did a heck of a job. I also used 147gr HP.

The 9mm was the go to round for many military organizations around the world for many years and is still in use by some. There have been a lot of people killed with that round.

I like the .45ACP but would not feel vulnerable if the 9mm (with 147gr HP) was all I had.

Heck the largest caliber pistol/revolver I have now are three S&Ws in .38 Smith and Wesson Special - I use factory +P and load +P.

I prefer a 12ga shotgun for HD.

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:03 am

It ain't what you hit 'em with, it's where you hit 'em. A 9mm is fine for HD. Some shoot straighter with the lower recoil. Personally I love my Kimber 1911 .45 but more often I take my Ruger LC9 in my pocket.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:58 am

It needs to be dead reliable in your gun; it needs to be reasonably accurate in your gun; and preferably it should have an expanding bullet of some type. Pretty much anything beyond those 3 requirements is salesmanship on somebody's part. In other words, just about anything sold as a self defense load will do.

Excalibur is a myth.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:36 pm

All modern defense calibers are about the same performers with modern hollowpoints.

9mm 147 grain Federal HST is what the local departments use and it tends,when put in the right place, to do the trick with 1-2 rounds or so.

Three recent shootings involving 9 and .40 using HST were over with less than 3 rounds per incident I believe.

BrianSH · Post by **BrianSH** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:52 pm

SAS, GsG9, COBRA, GnCG. These guys are all certified Bad Axes. They kill their country's enemy and don't care what their name is. When the SAS retired their shot out High Powers, they bought Sig 226 in parabellum. The 45 is not proprietary were they have to pay license fees to build that caliber pistol. All of these guys are still using 9's when they can afford any pistol they want. Both Glock and H&K make high-cap 45 for the asking. But the counter terrorist teams are still using the 9.

You have access to bullets they can't use also.

When I started researching this in the late 70's, all the mags said 45. Then I'd read in the American Rifleman - Armed Citizen column - 22's, 32's, 380's, 38's; everything but the 45 and 357. All are successfully used by the general public.

Its one thing to be a door-kicker, and maybe engaging bank robbers across the street, and another thing to be close up in a parking lot, or down the hallway. - Brian

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:03 pm

As I look around my computer desk (command central

) My 317 AirLite is at arms length...This does not make me quake in fear of being unprepared. The Glock 30 is a couple steps away. 1911 is in bedroom with the 12ga 870 Tactical not far from it. AirWeight by front door.....LCP always in vest pocket when I leave the house....Got to have one to use it.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:07 pm

I AGREE WITH TERRY MURBACH ON THIS ONE.....

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:21 pm

AJMD429 wrote:I AGREE WITH TERRY MURBACH ON THIS ONE.....

+1.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:53 pm

While I don't go around shooting people, the Nazis sure have and the 9 did OK for them or they would have changed. I guess the same could be said for good 'ole Joe Stalin and his murderous regime with their similar round.

Remember, cops deal the worst of the worst and the mere sight of their uniform probably pumps up the perp. I remember as a kid, back in the sixties, that hunters were told the 30-30 was too weak and everyone needed a 7 or a 300 mag, but we know better, don't we?----------6

If I was a cop, it would be the 40 or more, but as a civilian, I rarely get in condition red so a 38 caliber bullet satisfies me, plus, I know how to place a bullet.----------------6

wolfdog · Post by **wolfdog** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:21 pm

Sure 9x19 will work, killed several hogs with it, and finished a couple of deer that other people had shot with it. I liked the 115 grain load that Corbon had (Might still have, do not have a 9 anymore) better than any of the heavier bullets that I tried though. And if you still have doubts, ask Goerge Zimmerman, worked for him.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:28 pm

I agree with Terry also. +++
If you can hit with any caliber it`s better than missing with a big boomer.

Speaking of missing... A while back the Portland OR area police had a run in with a bad guy that turned in to a shooting event. The police (ten of them) all emptied their 16 round magazines
(160 rounds) and not one of those shots connected with the bad guy. These are professionals??? that are paid to protect us???

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:33 pm

Long time back, I carried an HP. Nice enough, but I just lack confidence in the round. If you can handle either the .357 (hey, it is bigger than that puny

.355 bullet of an 9mm) or a larger semi auto caliber you'd be better off with those.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:45 pm

Do you think your wife could use it if she had to in a hurry?

You said home defense. You might not always be on-site.

guido4198 · Post by **guido4198** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:37 pm

With the improvement I've seen in modern 9mm rounds, when it came time for me to update my daily carry choice, I went with a Kahr CM9. all the firepower in my safe does me little good if it's IN MY SAFE. The little Kahr is easy to conceal and carry comfortably, which translates into: it gets carried more frequently.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:42 pm

If u place your shot at home defense ranges, a 9, 32, 22, will work as well as a 45. If you want to shoot somebody at combat ranges, use a 45.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:52 pm

Im a 45acp fan.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:15 pm

FWiedner wrote:Do you think your wife could use it if she had to in a hurry?

You said home defense. You might not always be on-site.

Good thought. My wife, while she can shoot a 1911 doesn't like them. She prefers mid frame to small frame revolvers. So the solution is simple, she get's her own gun.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:17 pm

ONLY HITS COUNT !!!

If the HP makes hits more consistant, go for it..

I prefer a .45 Colt SA revolver.. It hits where I want it to..

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:18 pm

MrMurphy wrote:All modern defense calibers are about the same performers with modern hollowpoints.

9mm 147 grain Federal HST is what the local departments use and it tends,when put in the right place, to do the trick with 1-2 rounds or so.

Three recent shootings involving 9 and .40 using HST were over with less than 3 rounds per incident I believe.

I generally agree but I think that's there's some dated information in there as well.

The move to the 147 gr HP 9mm round was a reaction to the utter failure of the temporary wound cavity and energy models of the late 1970s, but the slower, heavier 147 gr 9mm round also has had some spectacular failures to expand, particularly when having to penetrate heavy clothing.

Modern hollow points like the HST help, but the trend in 9mm self defense loads has still been toward lighter 124 gr rounds at higher velocities that seem to offer more reliable expansion in real world shoots.

I agree that properly placed 1-2 rounds of 147 gr HST will do the job, but the full truth is that 1-2 rounds of properly placed anything tend to do the job. More over, in about 40% of shoots 1 round is enough to get a "psychological" stop when the suspect realizes "OMG I've been shot...I don't like being shot!!!...I don't want to be shot any more" and then throws down the weapon even though the hit is not incapacitating. Thus 1 round of anything large enough to enable to assailant to notice he's been hit would be adequate in those cases.

In that regard I like .45 ACP and I like 9mm. I appreciate the larger wound channel of the .45 ACP, but I also realize I can get 3 rounds of 124 gr 9mm in an A zone sized target at 7 yards in the same period of time it takes for me to put 2 rounds of 230 gr .45ACP in that same A zone sized target at that same distance - and 3 smaller 9mm wound channels have some significant advantages over 2 larger .45 caliber wound channels.

So it's basically a draw and what matters with either round is proper bullet placement.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:36 pm

I am equally proficient with the 1911 and the DA or SA revolver in most calibers when it comes to putting the holes where I want them. I have fired the Browning HP, Glocks, and other mid bore autos as well.

My wife prefers full house .357s and the 1911 in .45.

But we are both a bit rusty. Since IL does not yet have a functional concealed carry law that point is mute. My concerns at this point is home defense. Since I am in pretty bad shape physically I cannot run, and I cannot stand and fight.

At this time all I have is 6 shot revolvers. And I may end up selling most of those to pay for medical bills. I was considering the purchase of a hi-cap auto for the home. Hense my questions.

Joe

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:43 pm

Joe, this picture explains a lot:

Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

My exception is that I do not put hollow points into the .380. I use Federal fmj fp, a bullet with a meplat that penetrates the same distance as my 9mm's gold dots.

even tho most people on the board are gonna poo-poo the idea, in fact .380 has a slightly better record in stopping fights, actual gun data. you know, it's the same bullet, basically, as 357, 9mm, and 38.

I'll look for the study while I enjoy the predictable reactions

maybe better than a hand gun would be the keltec sub2000 in 9 or 40 using glock mags. if you can find one.

Chris83716 · Post by **Chris83716** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:31 pm

Two pages in and no volunteers to get shot by one of those puny 9mm.

Might tell you something.

Chris

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:35 pm

Home defense with no kids in the home? -- Rem 870 locked and loaded , but on safe, right by the bed (but that said, the High Power is a sweet pistol for sure

) I keep my bedside pistol loaded up with the old Black Talon rounds, as I have a very small stockpile from years ago --- but I believe Winchester marketed a very similar round , Ranger SXT, that did not have the moly coating, thus was not black -- don't know how they work in a 9mm, as this example is a 10mm, but I have seen bullets pulled from ballistic gelatin that looked as gnarly as a broadhead -- that technology is now about 25 years old though, so there may be stuff out there that works better, IDK - been outta the tactical loop for a while

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:18 pm

I'd say that if you are the more experienced and versatile shooter vs. your wife, then get what SHE is most comfortable with, and you will adapt easily. (If she were the more experienced shooter, I'd say get what you prefer, and she would adapt.) If she likes 1911's and 357's, you need not 'step down' to a 9mm, even though I think the consensus is that a 9mm WILL do the job.

One thing to consider is that if you fire a 357 or most 9mm's indoors without hearing protection, especially several times, you may wind up with permanent damage, vs. firing a 45 ACP. If you have a "first time, every time" 1911, personally I'd go with that. If not, a revolver, though I'd prefer a 750-fps'ish larger caliber bullet vs. the ear-punishing 357 Mag.

Like others have said, don't discount a shotgun or carbine of some sort, and of course a carbine could be ammo-compatible with your handgun of choice, most likely, whether 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, 357 Mag, 44-40, 44 Spl, 44 Mag, or 45 Colt. The main problem is with a carbine, you may not tend to have it in-hand when answering the door*, and a door-kicker could catch you or your wife defenseless, vs. if you have a handgun in your bathrobe pocket or whatever.

Ideally each of you should have your favorite handgun, maybe compatible with the same ammo or even same magazines. If you still can afford to have a couple long guns so much the better. Even if riots take the neighborhood, and all you have is two handguns, the two of you spittin' out 230-grain hollowpoints from a 5-gallon bucketful of ammo would be enough deterrence that you really wouldn't need much else.

-------------------------------

* now out "in the country" it isn't at all unusual for folks to tote a long-gun if they answer an unexpected knock at the door...sometimes around these parts, a travellin' salesman just might think he'd stepped onto the set of 'Secondhand Lions'**...

** if you haven't seen 'Secondhand Lions', you really need to click on the above link. You will want to buy or rent it immediately after seeing the salesman scene.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:02 pm

The information is not dated.

The ammo weight is HST-specific, I am familiar with what you're talking about, the early 147s were subsonic loads made for the MP5SD.

Most of the current hollowpoints do best in 115 and 124 grain, the Golden Saber and Ranger SXT specifically.

The HST has proven in real world (recent) shootings to tend to perform better with the 147 grain load.

As to 9mm vs .45....... I've carried and shot .45s for my entire life, a Glock 30 has been my carry gun for 14 years.

I carried a 9mm in the Air Force without a problem with the idea.

My training/duty gun currently is a M&P .40, only because I couldn't find a M&P 9mm in time for a decent price. Having 18 rounds ready to go (or as is common around here for a duty gun, 18 with a +3 plate or +4 plate for around 23-24 rounds before needing a reload) is nice.....

Read this....and pay attention to what he ended up using. Shot placement finished the fight.

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/ ... n-the-job/

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:55 am

the LE Agency that I serve carries .40S&W, we have a couple of old boys who carry a .45acp. We all carry Speer Gold-Dots, the .40 is 180gr. HP. my buds with NYPD carry the Glock 19 in 9mm, they carry 124 gr. Gold-Dot +P HP...they don't seem to complain...I really like the .40S&W, have read many incident reports on shootings, but in my honest opinion pick the caliber that you are the most comfortable and accurate with---San Diego Sheriff's Office allows their LEO's options, 9mm, .40S&W, .357Sig, and I think the .45acp... :)

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:35 am

I read all the magazines and talked to gun store salesmen and came to believe bigger was always better.

Recently more complete data is being complied from real-world shootings, and while gun writers and hangers-out at gunstore counters like to split hairs and argue minutia, it seems that most good pistol cartridges between 9x19 and .45 ACP are pretty similar in effectiveness, with skill being the most important factor.

One trend that I have noticed in this area is that newer police officers often run fancy 1911s, and then switch to more modern 9mms as they become more experienced.

We have to weigh the tradeoffs and decide what works best for us. Often factors can include things like cost, preference, or what you happen to already have.

All pistol calibers may fail to expand, may kill one guy with one shot and not the next with multiple shots - there are a lot of factors that prevent us from taking one or two examples to prove one vastly superior to another.

My philosophy is that you should use whatever effective caliber and pistol combination you shoot well and makes you happy.

I personally carry a 9mm (Caracal) and have an AR ready for home defense. I could use a .40 S&W, 357 SIG, .45 ACP, .357 Mag, etc., just as well, but I am confident in the 9mm and the Caracal shoots so nice, so that is what I chose.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:55 am

What's the advantage Joe? Capacity no? Since placement and handling are not issues for you, and that's why most people opt for a full sized 9mm, why would you choose the 9 vs a .40 or .45? Only capacity. Well, these days you have options for high capacity .45 ACPs as well! There's the Para high cap .45, the Springfield XDs, the FN high cap .45 pistols, etc. etc..

For home defense it does not need to be a small gun - get a big full sized high cap .45 auto and be done with it.

Ray · Post by **Ray** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:52 am

Deleted.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:09 pm

MrMurphy wrote:Read this....and pay attention to what he ended up using. Shot placement finished the fight. http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/ ... n-the-job/

Interesting story - thanks for posting it; got me thinking about the public/news media reaction to stuff like this...

At one point Gramins heard a doctor exclaim, “We may as well stop. Every bag of blood we give him ends up on the floor. This guy’s like Swiss cheese. Why’d that cop have to shoot him so many times!”

Gramins thought, “He just tried to kill me! Where’s that part of it?”

It is likely even worse if a 'dubious' person like an ordinary citizen/ccw shoots lots of times - the armchair observers would say how it was evidence of them being sadistic or trigger-happy, instead of just surviving...it all goes back to needing to STOP the bad guy, not whether or not 'killing' him happens in the process.

Before the shooting, Gramins routinely carried 47 rounds of handgun ammo on his person, including two extra magazines for his Glock 21 and 10 rounds loaded in a backup gun attached to his vest, a 9 mm Glock 26.

Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.

Paranoia?

Gramins shook his head and said “Preparation.”

Again, the news media (and unfortunately many cops, who of all people should KNOW better

) would treat an 'ordinary' citizen/ccw who carried 145 rounds as a "suspected terrorist" or otherwise assumed criminal-type...

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:13 pm

Chris83716 wrote:Two pages in and no volunteers to get shot by one of those puny 9mm.

Might tell you something.

Chris

I wouldn't volunteer to be shot by an even punier .22 lr either. While a .22lr might kill, it likely won't cause the miscreant to stop what they are doing post haste.

Regardless of all the fancy bullets in the world, if you start with a larger diameter, you are assured of at least that size hole.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:44 pm

Joe if you check Buffalo Bore's site you will see he has 9mm +P+ at 1175 to 1550 fps in different bullet weights any 9mm running 1350- 1550 isnt collecting moss. In all reality keep your DA revolvers they work just fine for SD and if you woke up and were surrounded by the enemy they will work for that to. To much hype is made about high capacity guns what you get is spray & pray fever with them. There is a retired NYC detective who was involved in several shootings that preferred a 4" DA revolver 8 or ten guys taking a dirt nap speaks to the wisdom of his choice, a FTF and you pull the trigger again in a auto you get to rack the slide. danny

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:47 pm

86er wrote:The current debate on caliber effectiveness similar to Ford/Chevy or Winchester/Marlin. I have a personal experience that sticks with me and affects my decision. In the City Where I lived the Police Dept had about 500 officers. From 90-93 they had 9mm pistols and shot 15 people of which they were hit from 3 - 14 times and 3 died. From 94-97 the police switched to .40 cal and shot 11 people of which were hit from 2 - 7 times and all but 1 died. That one was shot above the knee twice. To me, this factual observation negated the claim that the smaller calibers are easier to shoot accurately since the total #of rounds went down and hits went up with the larger caliber. Training did not change, just guns, caliber and bullet design. The same department issues 45ACP to ERT Team (SWAT). They used less hits per person to stop them and less overall round fired than the 40's demonstrated over a ten year period. The officers with the 45's did have a higher level of pistol training so that result may be skewed somewhat. Anyway, this wasn't some story - I knew these guys and girls, heard the news as it happened and heard the recounts of events. It left a strong impression with me and shaped my pistol decisions. That being said, today's bullet technology has changed for the better across the board. Lots of civilians use a 9mm successfully to defend life and property all the time. The Hi-Power is one of my favorite pistols! Easy to shoot, reliable, comfortable to carry. If you love the pistol I'd invest in the best modern ammo that proves reliable and sleep soundly at night.

Joe, I'd listen to Joe here. Ammunition quality, consistency, and effectiveness has really gone up over the last decade. I am a big fan of the 1911 in .45 ACP, but I also own six 9mm's (well, 5 really - one belongs to Y2K once he comes of age). My favorite is a Hi-Power clone from Argentina, called a "FM Detective". It is basically a commander-length Hi-Power, using the same magazines, but with a shorter barrel. Good for concealed carry (hopefully something you IL residents will get to experience soon), but good for home defense as well. Of course, for true home defense, I always recommend a pump 12 gauge. But a 9mm pistol would serve you well.

66GTO · Post by **66GTO** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:49 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
-------------------------------

* now out "in the country" it isn't at all unusual for folks to tote a long-gun if they answer an unexpected knock at the door...sometimes around these parts, a travellin' salesman just might think he'd stepped onto the set of 'Secondhand Lions'**...

** if you haven't seen 'Secondhand Lions', you really need to click on the above link. You will want to buy or rent it immediately after seeing the salesman scene.

Love that movie! I've watched 4 or 5 times. A great movie to watch with your kids.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:56 pm

66GTO wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:
-------------------------------

* now out "in the country" it isn't at all unusual for folks to tote a long-gun if they answer an unexpected knock at the door...sometimes around these parts, a travellin' salesman just might think he'd stepped onto the set of 'Secondhand Lions'**...

** if you haven't seen 'Secondhand Lions', you really need to click on the above link. You will want to buy or rent it immediately after seeing the salesman scene.
Love that movie! I've watched 4 or 5 times. A great movie to watch with your kids.

+1 on both counts. Saw it at my in-laws earlier in the month. Great movie!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:55 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote:+1 on both counts. Saw it at my in-laws earlier in the month. Great movie!

Pretty much anything Robert Duvall is in, I will probably like a lot...

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:15 pm

Scattergun is first line of home defense for me. Otherwise, larger caliber, even if slower moving than the smaller, faster pills generally create larger wound channels. Works for me on wild game and would also on two legged predators.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:44 pm

update on the handgun stopping data:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

and repost of the gel penetration comparisons for comparison purposes:

Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

and the 300 yard .22LR penetration test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAkOzr6c ... nown-vrecs

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:16 pm

"If u place your shot at home defense ranges, a 9, 32, 22, will work as well as a 45. If you want to shoot somebody at combat ranges, use a 45."

Not my experience. The trajectory of the 45 ACP is so high that expecting to hit anything at "combat' ranges is for most people wishful thinking. With my nines I can sight it at 25 yards and still keep on a silhouette easily at 100-plus yards. With the 45 the darn bullet will likely bounce before it gets there. I also currently, shoot .22. 32 ACP. 32 H&R, 380, 38 special, 357, 40 S&W, 41 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 45 ACP, 45 Colt. Personally I find the 9mm the best long range auto round and the 357 the best combat round revolver round.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:29 pm

.357 Sig will shoot flatter than typical 9mm, but a 9mm +P+ will perform similarly. Since the Sig was intended to match the 125 grain .357 Magnums it's not overly surprising.

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:45 pm

You could always load .454dia RB's in your 45 Colt to about 1200fps. Hornady makes some "hard lead" RB's you could probably push to 1500fps or so.

edited; Tho the R-P 115gr JHP's are nothing I would want to stand in front of. I put 15 rounds of it into a 3" circle at 7 yards in 6 seconds or so. Tho aiming center mass, the group was high and to the right. My 45Auto took about the same time to get 8 shots into a 4" group pretty much dead center of silhouette.

piller · Post by **piller** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:42 am

PillHer can shoot my old Ruger P85 with any brand of ammunition I put in it. That is what she has chosen for her home defense firearm, and it is 9mm. SightHunter uses her Kahr in 9mm, and she is pretty good with it. They both choose the 9mm due to the accuracy and their ability to handle the recoil from it. I get them the best ammo I can, and try to get them to practice as often as possible. Practice is probably more important than the caliber choice when you think about the quality and design of modern ammunition anyway.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:34 pm

I have shot quite a bit of stuff with the 9mm, and I have found a good hollowpoint round to do pretty good on wild dogs and smaller vermin I have also over the years ended up putting down several cows over a lifetime and on brain shots with the 9mm I found it usually took more shots then even the 40 calliber. I could definitely tell the 40cal hit harder on the heavier animals, as did the 44 and 45 caliber guns I have used.

However, I don't have a problem with the 9mm for home defense if that is what you are comfortable with. I own and carry at times, a Glock 17, 19, and 26. But I don't think the 9mm Browning Hi-power is all that good a choice for home defense or carry, unless it has been customized and even then my first choice would be something else, Glock 9mm or even a 1911 45acp, because I have not found the Hi-power to be all that reliable out of the box, and the slide is a little hard to manipulate IMHO. As they come out of the box, the hammer spring is too strong and the slide spring is too weak. Granted they have a fair trigger that can be made better, but they are a gun lover's gun, and not nearly as good a choice as many others in 9mm for home defense or carry.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:38 pm

BAGTIC wrote:"If u place your shot at home defense ranges, a 9, 32, 22, will work as well as a 45. If you want to shoot somebody at combat ranges, use a 45."

Not my experience. The trajectory of the 45 ACP is so high that expecting to hit anything at "combat' ranges is for most people wishful thinking. With my nines I can sight it at 25 yards and still keep on a silhouette easily at 100-plus yards. With the 45 the darn bullet will likely bounce before it gets there. I also currently, shoot .22. 32 ACP. 32 H&R, 380, 38 special, 357, 40 S&W, 41 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 45 ACP, 45 Colt. Personally I find the 9mm the best long range auto round and the 357 the best combat round revolver round.

25 yards with a HANDGUN IS COMBAT RANGE. home defense is different from what an Infantry man, LEO, or handgun hunter requires.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:37 pm

I have listened and participated in the HD arguments for years with each side saying they had the truth. I live less than 3 miles from the US/Mexico border and live hip and thigh with the Mexican drug thugs and the possibility of a violent encounter is higher than it is in many other parts of the country.

I carry a Glock 19 and have it and a Glock 17 in the house along with an Uzi carbine leaning beside the wall. I have top notch JHP ammo in them all. I also shoot allot and feel confident I can give a good account of myself in any problems with bad people.

Do, I think the 9mm is better than something larger? No it is not, but I am confident it will do the job if the need arises. I sleep well.

I have grown very weary of the caliber wars. Everybody is an expert, quick to wax eloquent on the subject, yet nobody has shot anybody. Nothing but theory, charts and opinions. Lots of people killed in my part of the world and the vast majority of them are killed with grenades, 223 rounds out of an AK or AR. If a handgun is used it is a 9mm. Of course there are many killed with chain saws across the neck as well.

When it comes to living or dying , the most import piece of equipment is you brain. That is what will decided if you live or die. If you have the will and skills to live, what you have in your hand really isn't all that important.

This morning after early church a bunch of us gathered for breakfast in a local café. My wife remarked that about half of the people at the table (10 of us) were packing. Even the Rector/Priest had a handgun and a bad butt knife. This stuff gets to be more than theory for those of us who live "On the Border by the sea".

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:31 am

Different factors to consider.
Most of us on here can just tell you what we read(how a 9mm works on assailants)???? Not personal experience.

Given that fact-------"if" I only had a 9mm handgun to use(then I would run Critical Duty Ammo in it and make sure I could hit what I aimed at.(like any other gun)

If I had other choices, I would choose something else. For HD my first choice is a very legally short shotgun. I want to feel (as confident as humanly possible that the first shot, does what needs doing)since I am not recoil sensitive I choose the 12ga 15pellet 00Buck.

900grs of lead at between 1200-1300fps hitting anywhere upper center mass========dropping Thor's hammer.
I have yet see any evidence of someone getting hit (upper center mass)at HD distance with a 15pellet 00Buck and not being put down.

If by some god unreal means they pull a zombie "Jason" or "Michael" (Friday the 13th / Halloween)number two shot could be an option. If 30 pellets of 00Buck don't work best just hand them over your gun and kiss your own a## sayonara.

Cause something's up!

7rds capacity----------take care of about anything. That with big bad dog in home(why not feel secure)
9mm---------------------------------------na!

MY 1st CHOICE BELOW------------

http://www.basspro.com/Remington-870-Ma ... /10217919/

http://www.aceshighbullmastiffs.net/kings.html