Thinking some Shocking Thoughts (Bushmaster ACR)

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:59 pm

This is so badly off topic I feel like a church lady who just got caught running a still in her basement.

I'm not a big fan of modern guns, although I do confess to owning a Springfield 1911 'Loaded' 45. I've been thinking about things recently and this past week I stopped in at the local shooting supplies store to check out a rifle I'm contemplating. Boys, brace yourself, but I've been thinking of acquiring a Bushmaster ACR chambered in 308. They seem to come standard with 20 round mags which seems about right for my preferences. I'm not at all a fan of 223 (not enough punch) and even the 7.62 x 39 seems too light at longer ranges. The 308 is a decent cartridge with recoil that is hardly noticeable but it still has a lot of punch for situations involving bush, vehicles, etc. I've liked the 308 for decades and it seems like a good, rural cartridge for really bad times. The rifle has a solid feel to it and a lot of nice features, including a pop up peep sight and a flat top I can stick a very nice optic on (figuring that out is down the road). The Bushmaster ACR I handled has some nice weight to it and I like that folding buttstock too. Overall, it seems like a rugged arm, but what do I know about these things.

As you all know, I know a fair bit about old Winchesters, but pretty much zip about black guns. The store also sells Robinson Arms XCR's that are pretty similar, also available in 308. A fellow I know has one of those and he can consistently get 10 round groups of .75" at 145 yards, which is plenty accurate for me. Other fellows around here seem to think the Bushmaster is the way to go. I friend of mine has some sort of CZ type 7.62 x 39, but it seems to be made out of sheet metal and has no solid flat top for a robust mounting of optics. It is cheap, however, but I'm not very impressed with it.

Anyway, I'm thinking of a Bushmaster ACR chambered in 308. Is it a piece of junk or not? They aren't very cheap .... about what I pay for a 120 year old Winchester, but I'd like something reliable in the rain, snow, mud, 35 below zero, etc.

Any input?

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:30 pm

I do not own a Bushmaster and am also not a big 'black gun' guy, that said, I would be hesitant to buy a Bushmaster in light of the decline in quality of the other guns and gun companies owned by Freedom Group. Bushmaster was bought by Freedom Group about the time Marlin was. We all know what happened to Marlin and the Remington quality has declined also.
The previous owner of Bushmaster, restarted the business with the old employees in the same plant under I believe the name Wyndom Weaponry. If you like the way your friend Bushmaster shoots and it is a 'real' Bushmaster, this is where I would start looking.

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:31 pm

Kirk
cant help ya with the EBR, but I know what ya mean, I like the 308, have since 1976
Ive been drooling over the Ruger gunsight scout, 10 round mag (maybe more ?)
seems to be a good gun & some thing that wouldnt seem so out of place in my hands
Im gonna catch it for saying this, ive not shot or carried a black gun much
but when I do id rather pack around a greased pig

ollogger

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:33 pm

I won't/can't say anything bad about the Bushmaster or the ACR platform, bur I'm partial to the HK91 platform.

#1 it ain't an EBR... it's Green.

#2 mine is 400yd accurate offhand with Irons and a paratrooper collapsing stock.

#3 even today magazines for it are dirt cheap.

#4 it has few parts and is almost impossible to damage.

Downsides? It's heavy. It has German ergonomics. It is hard on brass.

But it is one of the most widely used Main Battle Rifle around the globe...

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:43 pm

In addition to lever action rifles, I am a big fan of the AR style platform. I don't have any experience with the Bushmaster ACR but I have fired both the Armalite AR10T (20" bull barrel) and the DPMS Panther. I liked them both and would be happy owning either.
As for the Bushmaster brand; I have an XM15E2S 16" A2 that I bought new during the 1994-2004 AWB era. It has been trouble free and a very accurate rifle that has accounted for its share of coyotes. I also have a DPMS A15 Bull 24, which is a 24" stainless bull barreled rifle that has always been an incredible shooter that I have taken west KS prairie dogs at ranges up to 400 yards.
What I am trying to say is; these modern rifles are usually trouble free, very accurate with most brands and weights of ammunition.
I plan on buying either an Armalite or a DPMS once (if) the gun scare dies down. I prefer the AR platform over the ACR platform because of the availability of other caliber barrels such as .243 and .338 Federal. (Which may be available for the ACR as well - it is "adaptive" after all.)

I also have an RRA lower that I planned on adding a 300BLK upper to before the current mess started. RRA makes a good .308 as well.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:51 pm

but I'd like something reliable in the rain, snow, mud, 35 below zero, etc.
dont get a closed bolt system if you want it to meet that criteria. a open bolt system will work such as a mini 30, M14(M1A1), SKS and different AK variants. danny

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:59 pm

I'm appreciating the advice. I'm all ears.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:12 pm

Hey KirkD

what's the matter with holy moonshine?

I totally agree with you that a 308 is a fine rifle caliber and makes a lot of sense. I think it is a smart way to go.

I have my eye on what might be the most expensive option, but attractive as a concession to maybe needing a centerfire rifle. someday.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRif ... 0116S.aspx

You can put a 5.56 upper on it and make use of that ammo supply when it is available.

This one caught my attention.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:18 pm

That Colt is a cool system...

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:46 pm

That Colt looks like a contender.

Dave James · Post by **Dave James** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:03 pm

IF you have any trigger time on the AR system any of the 308 versions is where I would start looking, the newer Colt is a game changer, with its set up, but there are others out there, that are better ,
Big thing with the 308 guns is find out what mag they are running, if I remember right the Bushmaster is running the FNFAL, making it a little easier to find Then all you have to do is decide on gas or piston

Robinson is a genius but a pee poor marketer, the only few I have seen have always been held up by lack of parts

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:16 pm

Kirk????? Say it ain't so!!!!!

I prefer the Model 88 Bushmaster.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:24 pm

KirkD wrote:That Colt looks like a contender.

No it doesn't... Contenders are Single Shots...

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:33 pm

I am a black rifle guy, more than anything else, with an interest in leverguns.

Worked for a manufacturer, seen the industry from the inside and outside.

The MagPul Masada had great promise. The Bushmaster ACR (as it was produced) less so. It's not a bad design considering where it started, but it could have been done better, cheaper.

The Robinson company is a joke. The M96 and later XCR have always been overpriced and underperforming pieces, and the company's customer service is horrendously bad. Neither rifle has ever (to my knowledge) survived a modern carbine training course, though for bench shooting, i guess they're fine.

For the money, as a general shooter, the FN SCAR-H (Mk17) is both the most tested rifle of all time (in government trials), fully ambi, reliable, handy, and accurate, it's not insanely expensive for what it delivers. To give you an idea, the first time I handled a SCAR-H, zeroed to someone else, with a TA11F (3.5X) ACOG I scored 2 out of 4 direct hits on steel at 550 meters. Only reason I didn't get 4 of 4 was it was dusk, with a green target on grass background, and the fiberoptic ran out of sun and the dusk wasn't dark enough to make the tritium work. Black on green at dusk was a bit hard. The rifle's also combat tested by Special Forces in Afghanistan and they generally love it.

The LaRue OBR or PredatAR would also be excellent shooters, cost a bit more, but (with the correct shooter and glass) considerably more accurate, as that is their role.

If you just want a .308, S&W's new M&P-10 holds promise, though it's not quite as accurate (and also half the cost).

KAC's SR-25 was adopted as the M110, but costs twice as much as an OBR and tends to have more maintenance issues (and accuracy issues) as the Army will admit and I've seen firsthand. Nice piece, but $6,000+.....without the scope.

You can get a DPMS or other similar brand in .308, and for bench shooting, the occasional hunting trip, yeah, they'll probably do fine, but if you ever have to run the gun hard, expect parts failures.

Edit: Forgot, the new Colt 901 and the other model both show GREAT promise, though I have not yet shot one.

Chris83716 · Post by **Chris83716** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:59 pm

All my experience is with 223/5.56 ar's so take this with a grain of salt. 2 1/2 "old" Bushmasters. 1 is my High power service rifle. #2 is a 16" patrolman's carbine (m4). The 1/2 is a Bushmaster v match on a spikes lower. The last Ar is a Windham patrolman's carbine. It is a little more accurate than the same Bushmaster. AR's seem to either work or not with no middle ground.
I think the magizne issue is worth looking at especially given the current political climate. Kid at work picked an Armalite because it uses pmags. I know Robinson talks a good game but have never seen one to play with. Armalite and DPMS were the choices a few years ago to build match guns on for high power but no idea these days.

Let us know what you buy.

that way we all know for the future.

Chris

oregon73 · Post by **oregon73** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:19 pm

Krik, if you want a .308, why not an M1A?

I have the "Scout" version with the forward rail for optics and the shorter 18'' barrel. I've never mounted a scope--the iron sights work fine for me for now. A very handy and accurate rifle. I've never had a problem with it. It is probably heavier than an ACR and doesn't have a folding stock.... But still. The M1A is a tried and true design.

M1A's are not cheap but then again neither is an ACR or the FN SCAR. I own an older Bushmaster XM-15 (AR clone) that was built prior to Bushmaster being bought by the Freedom Group, and my Bushmaster has been an excellent performer. I don't know about the "new" Bushmasters. From what I've seen of the Marlin's being made by the Freedom Group Marlin, I can say I'm not a fan.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Rob

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:26 pm

Chris83716 wrote:...I think the magizne issue is worth looking at especially given the current political climate. ...

This. It is probably the #1 reason I went with the HK91. MIDWAY is STILL selling HK91/CETME 20rd mags for $2.99 each... and has plenty in stock (not that I need any... since I bought a box full at $1.99 ea...)

But compare this to FN/FAL, AR, M1/M14, etc mags which are "out of stock, no back order"...

Erma's not pretty, but at least I can feed her on the cheap...

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:40 pm

We are already limited to a five round magazine capacity for semi-automatic centrefire long guns in Canada

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bull ... 72-eng.htm

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:41 pm

Borregos wrote:We are already limited to a five round magazine capacity for semi-automatic centrefire long guns in Canada

Maybe Kirk knows something you don't? (or vice-versa) ???

(FWIW, I've got 5 rounders for Erma too... they are for hunting use in States with Magazine Restrictions while Hunting...)

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:43 pm

See my edited post with link to RCMP

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bull ... 72-eng.htm

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:51 pm

Borregos wrote:See my edited post with link to RCMP

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/bull ... 72-eng.htm

That sucks.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:51 pm

Borregos is right. The larger mags are pinned to five with a small rivet. 20 and 30 round mags are very popular here in Canada. I don't ask because I don't want to hear about illegal things, but I get the impression that if there was ever a social collapse, some fellows like the idea of a five round mag that can be converted to 20 rounds in a minute or so.

Lots of good info to think about here.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:57 pm

KirkD wrote:Borregos is right. The larger mags are pinned to five with a small rivet. ...

Funny how genuine societal collapse tends to dissolve rivets...

Must be made of some odd alloy...

(and, jut because... wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to "pin" a case of $3 20rd magazines than a handfull of $30 magazines (when available)?

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:05 pm

Kirk, this is the nearest I have to an EBR, it is a Valmet Hunter in 308, the action is based on the AK47 and it seems to function well whatever the conditions!!
It is also a good example of just how stupid our gun control laws are. This rifle went from being perfectly OK to being "restricted" as per our handguns, then they made it "prohibited" which meant I could still have it but not shoot it anywhere, and then all of a sudden out of the blue I got a letter from the RCMP saying the situation had been revisited and it was no longer either prohibited or restricted!!! Go figure!!

I will bring it to our 38-55 shoot in the warmer weather.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:58 pm

Pete, the main difference between restricted and non-restricted seems to be the barrel length, with 18.5" being non-restricted. There is one exception, as far as I understand, all AR15 platforms are restricted because it looks evil (

), but other equally lethal platforms are non-restricted.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:08 pm

I think the M1A is overall a more robust firearm, and seems to have fewer and stronger parts, but it lacks the options of swapping for other barrel configurations or chamberings in the '308 family'. For whatever reason I've never seen any of the 'AR-10' type firearms in military use, but it might be easy to assume they were AR-15's in the typical news-photo. The M1A still seems to be a popular go-to battlefield problem-solver though.

However, even though I think I'd go for an M1A over an 'AR' style 308, I just might take Old Ironsight's advice and go for that HK-clone, if you could actually get hold of one. Buy twenty magazines and you just saved several hundred dollars you could put towards a high-end optic or more ammo.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:25 pm

I have a Bushmaster OCR in .308 and I've had to fiddle with it to get it running right as if it were a Rossi or something (

) so I can't give Bushmaster the thumbs up. Don't know diddly about Robinson. The FN SCAR has always appealed to me. The new Colt really appeals to me, mostly because it's a Colt so you know it'll be made right and they'll stand behind it.

I don't know if the large frame ARs are restricted in Canada like the small/regular AR-15s are, but if not look at the LRP-07 from JP Rifles and ask around about them, and Les Baer makes an AR in .308 now also: http://www.lesbaer.com/AR308.html

Lastly, need I mention the Browning BAR? A well proven rifle. FN also sells an evil black version of that rifle: http://www.fnhusa.com/l/products/commer ... nar-heavy/

Good luck and happy shopping Kirk.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:55 pm

Knight's Armarment (KAC) has had the SR-25 in service as the M110 sniper system for around five or six years, at least since about 2007ish I can think of.

It has it's downsides, but it does look just about like an M16A4 with a scope mounted (which was the point) the easiest way to tell is the magazine length and type (20 rounds only).

Some of the others are in limited service here and there, but the KAC got type-classified since KAC actually has the production plant big enough to match a huge order if necessary. They already make the rails for the M-4 carbine and M-16.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:13 pm

One point regarding the M1A; If you are used to using traditional rifles it may feel more natural with a conventional style stock and sights that aren't two inches above the bore line. That being said, scope mounting is not as easy as with more modern rifles but certainly doable.
I myself have always liked the M1A. It is made of steel and is stone-drag reliable. Really I guess I'm just old school.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:52 am

Kirk,
Like you I'm not that impressed with the 5.56-.223 or the direct impingement system either. That and the government changing powders when they fielded the M-16 to Viet Nam got some of our guys killed.

That said I too was looking for a 308 on an AR platform. The first ones I looked into were the Larue Tactical. They are very accurate. But, I also wanted a piston gun. After checking around I went with the POF-USA
They guaranty sub-MOA accuracy even from the 12" version and are in the same price range as the Larue.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:58 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:Kirk,
Like you I'm not that impressed with the 5.56-.223 or the direct impingement system either. That and the government changing powders when they fielded the M-16 to Viet Nam got some of our guys killed.

That said I too was looking for a 308 on an AR platform. The first ones I looked into were the Larue Tactical. They are very accurate. But, I also wanted a piston gun. After checking around I went with the POF-USA
They guaranty sub-MOA accuracy even from the 12" version and are in the same price range as the Larue.

I like the look of that

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:21 am

I sure appreciate all this excellent information. I'm going to have to go right back to the drawing board and start digesting this all over again.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:48 am

KirkD wrote:I sure appreciate all this excellent information. I'm going to have to go right back to the drawing board and start digesting this all over again.

MrMurphy wrote:You can get a DPMS or other similar brand in .308, and for bench shooting, the occasional hunting trip, yeah, they'll probably do fine, but if you ever have to run the gun hard, expect parts failures.

Just my opinion but I suspect that most of us on this forum would never have the occasion or the need to ever run our guns as hard as MrMurphy. I certainly understand his view considering the hard use that he expects to put his firearms through; but for most of us, not all of the guns that we buy, even semi-auto ARs, need to meet the stresses of a combat deployment to be a very serviceable, and affordable firearm for our use.

I am in no way suggesting that my DPMS, Bushmaster or Rock River ARs would be a good choice for government/military use but they are affordable, accurate firearms that have served me very well shooting paper, prairie dogs and coyotes.

I am assuming that you are planning to use your new ACR/AR for occasional hunting and shooting paper targets. I also suspect that, as MrMurphy alluded, a DPMS or similar platform would do fine. When making a firearm purchase, I try to judge the firearm for its expected use.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:21 am

Damienph,

If a gun won't run to its potential I won't own it. I've taken courses where 90% of the guns failed and half of those failed on the first five mags. This was not rapid fire but simple firing drills.

If I were to buy a gun like Kirk is considering I would look no further than MrMurphy's recommendation. I see no point in risking my life on subpar arms. Even if it is a near zero probability that I might use it in a battle. Low probability/High impact means to me spend the money for the high impact scenario and train with it and sleep well knowing that low probability is handled.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:28 am

Tycer,

I believe that the original post was about selecting a semi-auto rifle to use for hunting. I am just saying that, in my opinion, there is a place for rifles manufactured by companies like DPMS, Bushmaster, Rock River, Armalite, etcetera. My ARs don't get any harder use than my bolt, lever, single shot and other semi-auto rifles, probably none of which could stand up to high impact use either. The highest impact scenarios that my ARs will be subjected to are shooting paper, prairie dogs and coyotes, and for that they have served me very well.

If Kirk had asked about a rifle for use in a bad times situation or other self-defense, offensive or combat situation as opposed to hunting, I probably would not recommend any of my brand of rifles. Actually, I probably wouldn't have posted a response at all, since I have no combat experience what so ever.

I have absolutely no doubt that MrMurphy knows exactly what he is talking about when it comes to firearms for "high-impact" use, I just don't believe that was the intent of the original post and believe that the rifles that I have experience with have a valid use in recreation and hunting.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:13 am

Good post Tycer, but it leaves me wanting to ask this question.

Is it your opinion that only a gun that retails for three grand is suitable for use as a repeating 7.62?

Cause for the same dinero you could buy 3 Ruger Scouts and a lot of ammo.

Just wondering if I copied you correctly.

Grizz

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:27 am

My PTR-91 was $900 NIB....

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:47 am

Here's my contribution to the thread drift.

I don't know anything about the ACR other than it was originally the Magpul Masada as noted by MrMurphy.

I also know SF tested and had in inventory the FN SCAR for several years. For whatever reason they were recalled and SF had to turn them in. (I suspect this was due mostly to logistics, which I think is the same reason they never adopted the 6.8 SPC ).

I've owned 3 HK 91's. A good solid platform, but has a couple issues that have left me cold with a design that is undoubtedly one of the best. Lack of parts availability due to no longer being produced. Fluted chamber and slamming the ejection port ruins the brass.

M110 SASS rifle. Overpriced rifle, contract supplied by KAC after they used their contacts in a political move to disqualify it's biggest competitor (Remington SASS which was actually a DPMS) due to a paperwork. There was an 18 page thread in the AR15 dot com vendors section with the owner of Knight's Armament trying to justify his bullpucky, unsuccessfully I might add.

I've spoken with an Army sniper who brought his weapons to our unit for a familiarization and briefing. The M110 was nice to fondle, but he made it very clear he did not trust it, felt it was unreliable, and preferred the M24.

The Army issues the M14 as SDM and for several other uses. It is still in the inventory, the parts chain is probably the same as the rest of the .308's combined, and is in general more accurate than any of them in it's current configuration.

After much deliberation and research on the subject, my conclusion is If I were going to get a semi auto .308, it would be an accurized M1A rifle. Battle proven, US made, parts and gunsmiths everywhere.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:50 am

damienph wrote:
I believe that the original post was about selecting a semi-auto rifle to use for hunting.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

If Kirk had asked about a rifle for use in a bad times situation or other self-defense, offensive or combat situation as opposed to hunting...

That was exactly what I inferred from his post. The rifle in question implies that by design.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:57 am

Actually, parts availability for the 91/CETME is pretty good... not that you will ever need parts.

I had no problems buying spare NOS rollers, firing pin, & locking piece (the "wear" parts on the 91 platform).

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:26 pm

I sure appreciate this info. A little bit about what is behind my query. I like to think ahead and imagine and work my way through all sorts of eventualities, including worst case scenarios. For example ...... imagine that things have really hit the fan way faster than I anticipated and for whatever reason, I have to grab my family right now and get from here into the wilderness to the north with a lot of people hunting us all the way in, including once we hit the end of the road and have to continue on, on foot through muskeg, forest, and lots of black, oozy sucking mud with 20 men after us all with the objective of turning out our lights and engagements could be close up, but I would prefer to take care of business from 200 or 300 yards away while every one keeps flogging their way through swamps, bogs, moving around small lakes, etc. with a billion mosquitoes and rank wilderness as our allies and nothing else. So I'll have to admit that I'm interested in a bad times rifle that will just keep working. My go-to rifle right now is 'Old Savage', my 30-30 carbine, but it just takes time to work that lever when one has five or six problems close up at the same time and it wouldn't be my rifle of choice for taking care of the hounds at 300 yards when they came around the far side of a lake or other open area presented itself. I have to admit, in spite of my love for the old Winchesters, that there are times when good optics/thermal imaging/flat shooting/semi auto rifles can be a life saver.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:28 pm

"Pretty good" during times when you can find and order on the internet or pick up at a gunshow is completely different from huge stockpiles of current manufactured parts in warehouses and hundreds of gunsmiths who stock them. For every HK/CETME and 91 clone in the US I would bet there are 10 M1A's.

BTW, have you actually tried to install and operate your PTR clone with HK/CETME parts? The PTR does not have very good parts compatibility with a real HK/CETME, and made several design changes that affected reliability and compatibility with HK/CETME and contract rifles like the Greek SAR8 (I owned one back in the 80's and it had complete parts interchangeability with an HK 91).

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:29 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
damienph wrote:
I believe that the original post was about selecting a semi-auto rifle to use for hunting.
I'm not sure I agree with that.

If Kirk had asked about a rifle for use in a bad times situation or other self-defense, offensive or combat situation as opposed to hunting...
That was exactly what I inferred from his post. The rifle in question implies that by design.

After re-reading Kirk's original post, I have to admit that I was wrong about his use for the rifle. I should pay closer attention to the topic before I comment.

KirkD wrote:The 308 is a decent cartridge with recoil that is hardly noticeable but it still has a lot of punch for situations involving bush, vehicles, etc. I've liked the 308 for decades and it seems like a good, rural cartridge for really bad times.

In light of that, I agree that he should buy the best, most reliable rifle he can.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:33 pm

KirkD wrote:I sure appreciate this info. A little bit about what is behind my query. I like to think ahead and imagine and work my way through all sorts of eventualities, including worst case scenarios. For example ...... imagine that things have really hit the fan way faster than I anticipated and for whatever reason, I have to grab my family right now and get from here into the wilderness to the north with a lot of people hunting us all the way in, including once we hit the end of the road and have to continue on, on foot through muskeg, forest, and lots of black, oozy sucking mud with 20 men after us all with the objective of turning out our lights and engagements could be close up, but I would prefer to take care of business from 200 or 300 yards away while every one keeps flogging their way through swamps, bogs, moving around small lakes, etc. with a billion mosquitoes and rank wilderness as our allies and nothing else. So I'll have to admit that I'm interested in a bad times rifle that will just keep working. My go-to rifle right now is 'Old Savage', my 30-30 carbine, but it just takes time to work that lever when one has five or six problems close up at the same time and it wouldn't be my rifle of choice for taking care of the hounds at 300 yards when they came around the far side of a lake or other open area presented itself. I have to admit, in spite of my love for the old Winchesters, that there are times when good optics/thermal imaging/flat shooting/semi auto rifles can be a life saver.

Kirk, I am listening to a mainstream AM radio program right now and the host is interviewing a very well credentialed expert with high level military ties discussing NK's ability to affect the US with an EMP, and how quickly we would degenerate into a complete bad times/total anarchy scenario. It's about 3 days.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:42 pm

I've had no problems with parts interchangibility at all.

But then, my PTR is the "GI" version which was built closer to G3 specs than some of their other variants.

As you know, there are very few things on a 91 that can actually break and a near 100% rebuild kit with all springs & wear parts is both cheap and takes up very little room. Buy 2.

Besides, if my gun is that broken, whether it's an AR platform or a HK, "fixing" it is probably moot.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:02 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:I've had no problems with parts interchangibility at all.

You did not answer my question.

But then, my PTR is the "GI" version which was built closer to G3 specs than some of their other variants.

There are several key features missing.

As you know, there are very few things on a 91 that can actually break

A PTR is not an HK. I was tearing up my thumb re-assembling a German manufactured HK91 bolt over a decade before JLD imported their Portuguese equipment (you are free to infer disdain for that entire parts chain, I care not that it came from an HK licensed factory).

Besides, if my gun is that broken, whether it's an AR platform or a HK, "fixing" it is probably moot.

In the event of a catastrophic bolt failure, a conservative pulled-from-my-butt estimate would be that an AR bolt is going to be 10,000 times more available, which elevates it from moot to completely feasible.

My entire point here is that while the HK design was undoubtedly one of, if not the most, prolific and reliable auto-loading rifles ever, it is no longer produced (a clone is not an HK) there are other designs out there that are just as reliable, have been in production longer, and are still currently being produced and issued to the US military. That supply chain is so superior that it renders everything else obsolete in practical terms.

I'm glad you like your PTR and I'm sure it's serviceable, but based on my experience and criteria it's not a practical choice.

Also, I bet 1 in 50 women can reassemble the HK bolt. Remove the bolt from your bolt carrier, hand it to your wife, and ask her to reassemble it. A child could reassemble an AR bolt.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:53 pm

These people will build you either an M1A or a large frame AR Kirk: http://www.fulton-armory.com/

As far as I know they have a good rep. but I'll defer to others if someone knows more than I.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:08 pm

Kirk, last year I attended a family reunion down by Dillon MT. there was several in-laws and out-laws and guests there after driving down I went in my nephews house and took my pistol out and placed it on top the china cabinet a young lady guest said very loud, are you expecting trouble I replied no that if I was expecting trouble I would of brought a rifle and 2-3 friends with rifles. The point is if you are going to round up family and hit the woods I'd just get a handful of 30-30's some with a low powered illuminated reticules for dusk to dawn and those 2-300 yd shots you might have and teach them some. Several rifleman are better than one machine gunner with a belt feed 30 cal. Plus everyone has a light weight rifle for food and protection. danny

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:25 pm

One rifle that is available here in Canada is the KEL-TEC RFB 308. Is it just a wannabe or can it take some abuse?

Unfortunately, the USA has decided stop exporting the SCAR to Canada, so there are only about 70 that made it across before the border closed to that particular rifle.

Danny: my 30-30 would definitely be going along with the family, as would my Browning 1886 SRC, as well as whatever other old Winchesters we could toss in the truck. My daughters are pretty good shooters and my youngest daughter is phenomenal. Then there are the four sons ... We are all at home in the wilderness after 25 years of remote wilderness canoeing and camping. The trick would be to make it there. Once there, I feel sorry for any fellows that were hounding us. The mosquitoes alone would drive the average greenhorn stark raving mad before midnight the first night out.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:32 pm

KirkD wrote:One rifle that is available here in Canada is the KEL-TEC RFB 308. Is it just a wannabe or can it take some abuse?

Jury is still out on that one Kirk, lot's of reports of failures. Also, Kel-Tecs small production runs don't help. Great idea and one I was initially excited about when they debuted the design years ago.