Soft vs. hard cast questions.

[hightime]

I suppose I could just try and I probably will. Every gun is different, so I've been told, but what are your thoughts and reasons. With less than a perfect barrel my gun seems to like those Rem 45 colt swaged and I think they're soft. I don't even have a hardness tester yet. Do you use different hardnesses for different guns?

Owen

[Tycer]

I do not. I fit the bullet to the gun and then it really does not matter about hardness. I vary hardness to fit the bullet type and end use, i.e. penetration vs. expansion.

[20cows]

I use water dropped wheel weights for all my cast bullets. The rifle bullets get a gas check when needed.

[chadbr]

There is a great article in the latest handloader about this --

His conclusion is "it doesn't matter" -- at least not in his testing.

None of the article here except the title:
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/P ... artial.pdf


"Loading lead in the 44 mag, The realities of alloys and hardness" by John Haviland

Chad

[mikld]

I do not. I fit the bullet to the gun and then it really does not matter about hardness. I vary hardness to fit the bullet type and end use, i.e. penetration vs. expansion.

Me too. The key to shooting clean non-leading is bullet to gun fit. I started 12 or so years ago casting only wheel weights for all my handguns (revolvers and semi-autos, light to magnum loads) and had much success, when bullets fit properly...

[Cliff]

Soft bullets seem to be more forgiving when shot within their limits. The harder is better comes from people claiming soft bullets leaded up their barrels too much. As stated a properly sized and fitted bullet with a good lube will usually shoot without leading if kept to proper velocity. Linotype was the gold standard for rifle shooters for target, it is quite hard, but it was made to cast fast and accurately. Linotype is also costly with price of metals today so it is falling out of favor. It wasn't all that uncommon to find casters using basically pure lead, but if you add a bit of Tin it will flow better and fill out the moulds properly. A lot has been written over the years and a lot has been forgotten. Today's cast bullet makers like the newer harder alloys as they work well in their casting machines, fall free when the moulds open and so on. It is cheaper than the Linotype metal as well. Just saying. Could always look into paper patching or if you want to go further try Wire Patching a few bullets, useing bell wire. Good Luck...........

[Charles]

When it comes to bullet temper, it DOES NOT vary from firearm to firearm of the same type. I suppose that is what you mean. Now if you change from sixgun to autopistol to rifle, that is another matter. Different folks hold different opinions, but here is what I do with considerable sucess.

Sixgun------

For plain base bullets up to about 1.3K fps I like air cooled wheelweight
For gas check bullets at magnum speeds, I use the same air cooled wheelweight
For plain base bullets at magnum speeds, I use Lyman No. 2 alloy

Autopistol----

There is considerable latitude here due to the design of the pistol and the fact that it doesn't have a cylinder with it's throats. For the autopistol, straight air cooled wheel weight will do just fine. For a harder alloy No 2 is great, through not needed.

Rifle----

Plain based bullets up to about 1.3K fps, air cooled wheel weight again.
Gas check bullets up to 2.K fps, air cooled wheel weight
Gas check bullet above 2K fps, I used Lyman No 2

Bullet tempering ---

Water dropping is popular but I don't have much use for it as

A. It produces bullets far harder than I want for sixguns or autopistols.
B. That level of hardness is not needed for autopistols.
C. Water dropping produces bullets that are uneven in temper. If you want to temper rifle bullets, the oven with a water quench will do a much better job.
D. Let water dropped bullets sit a few days and try and size them in a traditional Lyman/RCBS/Saeco machine and they are a bear. I tore up the linkage on a fine old Lyman 45, trying to size water dropped 45 Colt bullets down to .452. That cured me.

Linotype---

Linotype is very rich in antimony chrystals. Antimony is the only metal I know of, that contracts when hot and expands when cool. That is why is is used in type metal. They also produce some well filled out bullets for the same reason. Bullets from linotype will be larger for this reason than those cast from alloys with lower antimoney content.

Linotype bullets are well filled out, uniform in weight and will the the pressure to fire them at high end velocities. However, there is a price to pay! The antimony crystals are very, very hard and abrasive to barrel metal. Barrel throats, grooves and lands will wear much faster with pure linotype bullets. Bullets cast from an alloy with lower antimony content can be pushed just as fast with much greater barrel life.

None of the above applies to black powder, just to smokless powder. Black powder plays by different rules.

[Hobie]

When it comes to bullet temper, it DOES NOT vary from firearm to firearm of the same type. I suppose that is what you mean. Now if you change from sixgun to autopistol to rifle, that is another matter. Different folks hold different opinions, but here is what I do with considerable sucess.

Sixgun------

For plain base bullets up to about 1.3K fps I like air cooled wheelweight
For gas check bullets at magnum speeds, I use the same air cooled wheelweight
For plain base bullets at magnum speeds, I use Lyman No. 2 alloy

Autopistol----

There is considerable latitude here due to the design of the pistol and the fact that it doesn't have a cylinder with it's throats. For the autopistol, straight air cooled wheel weight will do just fine. For a harder alloy No 2 is great, through not needed.

Rifle----

Plain based bullets up to about 1.3K fps, air cooled wheel weight again.
Gas check bullets up to 2.K fps, air cooled wheel weight
Gas check bullet above 2K fps, I used Lyman No 2

Bullet tempering ---

Water dropping is popular but I don't have much use for it as

A. It produces bullets far harder than I want for sixguns or autopistols.
B. That level of hardness is not needed for autopistols.
C. Water dropping produces bullets that are uneven in temper. If you want to temper rifle bullets, the oven with a water quench will do a much better job.
D. Let water dropped bullets sit a few days and try and size them in a traditional Lyman/RCBS/Saeco machine and they are a bear. I tore up the linkage on a fine old Lyman 45, trying to size water dropped 45 Colt bullets down to .452. That cured me.

Linotype---

Linotype is very rich in antimony chrystals. Antimony is the only metal I know of, that contracts when hot and expands when cool. That is why is is used in type metal. They also produce some well filled out bullets for the same reason. Bullets from linotype will be larger for this reason than those cast from alloys with lower antimoney content.

Linotype bullets are well filled out, uniform in weight and will the the pressure to fire them at high end velocities. However, there is a price to pay! The antimony crystals are very, very hard and abrasive to barrel metal. Barrel throats, grooves and lands will wear much faster with pure linotype bullets. Bullets cast from an alloy with lower antimony content can be pushed just as fast with much greater barrel life.

None of the above applies to black powder, just to smokless powder. Black powder plays by different rules.

What a great explanation! Thanks Charles!

[6pt-sika]

I no longer cast for anything but the 44 MAG , 444 and the 45-70 . And all three are in rifles .

In all of them I cast plain old wheelweights NOTHING added .

In the 44 MAG everything is aircooled . In the 444 everything is aircooled up to 325 grains . The bullets from 330-400 grains are all water quenched .
In the 45-70 I typically water quench them all now from the 300 grainer up to the 550 grainer .

Another reason my bullets may shoot well for me is the fact that I size the 44's in a .432" die and the 45-70 stuff in a .461" !
Also 99.5% of what i cast are gas checked which I personally think helps .

[ollogger]

I read the Handloader article & went an cast some soft 45 colt bullets
loaded them with 9gr. of unique & shot the heck out of them in 2 rugers
groups were a little smaller & had no leading, so i loaded some 4227
& pushed it alot faster & got the same results
,Next im gonna rip them outta my rifle with RL7 at 1700fps & see what
happens, The bullet is Lee 255gr. PB.



ollogger

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Hardness of cast bullets will also affect impact on target. I generally stay on the soft side for my hunting. I want expansion. I do not want a bullet to shatter on bone. What powder you are using to propel the slug will also place different demands on mix and hardness. A slower powder places less stress on a bullet base so a softer mix can be used.
I recommend everyone interested in lead to head over to Castboolits and do some study. Many years of testing and not hearsay is in open print to anyone who wants to take the time to study up. I have been around casting since I was 4 (my dad and his Navy buddy) and have never regreted hanging about Castboolits.
Mike in Peru

[hightime]

Thanks Mike. I'm a member there too. Like a sponge, I'm trying to suck it all up.

Owen

[6pt-sika]

Thanks Mike. I'm a member there too. Like a sponge, I'm trying to suck it all up.

Owen

You might be better served joining the forum here !

www.castbulletassoc.org

[Tycer]

Thanks Mike. I'm a member there too. Like a sponge, I'm trying to suck it all up.

Owen

You might be better served joining the forum here !

http://www.castbulletassoc.org

The fouling shot! I visit boolits some, but the CBA is my favorite cast site.

Gee 6pt, I didn't know you posted over there. Perhaps you should post about your 444 Marlins. I do aspire to your collection and CB knowledge.

[Leverdude]

Soft can be more forgiving but you cant push them 2000 fps. I'v got an old Marlin 38/55, it slugs over .381 but wont chamber a bullet over .380. So the concept of useing a hard bullet .002 oversize is impossible. I got as far as considering having the chamber opened up when I decided to try softer bullets. I dont cast but I found some soft .380, loaded them over some 4227 & they shot beautiful with no leading. Sometimes a hard bullet is the wrong choice.

[Charles]

I am about to give up on the cast boolit board. It has grown to be very large. With the numbers have come large numbers of folks who have lots of opinions but very little experience. There is also a sprinkling of plain old liars. There is still some good stuff there, but it is mixed in with the garbage. Most of the folks who built the board have moved on.

The CBA forum is a much more reliable source of information.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Charles , I know how you feel about that. I used to spend lots of time over there too but slowly faded away when the stuff got to be to much for me to handle.