Question for our Griz guides and Alaskan members?

[Canuck Bob]

I want to ask folks with direct experience in big bear country a question. What do you think or what do locals think of the 12 gauge slug gun as a camp gun? What about the lowly 20 gauge?

I know that locals in the far north often carry a 12 gauge for bear protection. I was just wondering what locals in Alaska's big bear country think. I'm talking camp gun not a bear hunting rifle. I wouldn't drop the hammer unless they were close and threatening.

The 12 gauge slug up close is a heavy hitter but sometimes folks with real experience might surprise a guy with their answers.

The reason I'm asking is the only real hole left in my safe is a nice repeater shotgun. I was considering a 20 gauge then considered this idea. My current camp gun is a 444 but I'm moving to woods loafing carry guns that break down.

[tman]

Not a guide, but i'd rather shoot a bear with a 12 than 20.

[Canuck Bob]

I have been searching all day, got a few days off!

I found so many sites that I should have googled first. Still this forum is the one I trust for straight shooting opinions not conjecture.

tman, it is hard to debate that conclusion. I have been toying with selling my 444 for quite awhile. I am never planning to hunt again and it is a hunters gun. I have a young friend at work who is pushing a bit. My go to will be a 94 32 Special or 92 32-20. I've always liked the BPS Uplander with the short barrel. I'm a lefty and it is bottom eject. As far as shotgunning goes 20 gauge suits me and my young daughters best.

[Grizz]

I lived in among the coastal brown bears for about thirty years. Still don't like 'em.

I have a heavy 44 mag load for my handgun and a heavy load for my 45/70.

I also have a 12ga in my Alaska place and one down here to ride with me when I travel there. I'm leaning toward just carrying my shotgun once I get the load I want worked out.

IMO it needs to be hard cast, not the winchester soft types, and have a flat meplat, not the lee loader round nose types. My winchester slugs, which are way too soft for a good bear stopper IMO, leave the barrel at 1600 fps and weigh 427 gr, or 1 oz. IOW, it's a buffalo gun just the way it is. I will get some brennekes but I think they are too soft. You don't want any expansion. You have a .60 something projectile, you want something that will break everything it encounters and go for more.

My experimental plan is to pull the shot from a 1-1/8 oz load and replace with a custom cast or turned flat meplat weight forward slug that just fits the cup. Easy peasy.

My chicom 870 clone has rifle sights and shoots really well with slugs from the cylinder bore out past bear stopper range.

And birdshot is for birds.

Waiver. I have never had to shoot a bear, and I only ever saw one that I wished I could shoot. I have a neighbor who shot over 50 with his 30-06, but they were a ways off and not charging. He shot them BEFORE they could charge him. Smart man. "native" so he gets to.

I know lots of folks who've shot bears and I've listened to lots of detailed stories. Killing one that doesn't know you are around, and STOPPING one that wants you are two completely entirely seperate propositions.

You can blow the heart clean out of a brown bear and he can eviscerate and decapitate you before he expires. A CNS shot is the only way to be reasonably sure that you won.

Hope this is helpful. I lived close to them. Like they were on the school grounds next door and under my house rummaging around and killing deer I was after and grazing around where I was gutting deer and hiding somewhere when I was packing deer out and running up ahead of me when I was climbing a steep ridge and staying out of sight when I was packing a deer out along a bear highway alongside a salmon creek and swimming a few feet from my skiff with a hiss and growl and open mouth that could bite off your head and chasing a young bear from Cenotaph Island to the mainland in Lituya Bay bumping into my fishing boat while swimming across Excursion Inlet and fishing in the town creek my son was fishing for humpies in.... they're everywhere they're everywhere. when they get you they sit on you and eat your guts.

So it's a good idea to have something you can rely on.

And yeah, a 20 ga can be made to work, but the availability of 12 ga everywhere seems to be something in its favor. I considered switching to 20, I have a single shot for a hotel gun, but the numbers really favor 12s in my mind.

Rambling on,
Grizz

[336A]

No need to look any further Grizz what your looking for has been around for a few years now here http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

I thought there was a member here from Montana who dispatched a problem grizz that was raiding his chicken coup with a 20GA shotgun and slugs. Perhaps I'm just misremembering but I could swear there was a post here about it. I do know however that I did read about it.

[Buck Elliott]

I really like Rottweil's 3" 12-ga load, with the 600 gr Brenneke. It shoots well for me in unrifled, cylinder-bore barrels. It penetrates and holds together very well, and is much harder than the Forster-type, hollow-base slugs..
Another alternative could be Winchester's plated 000 Buck, in 3" persuasion.. 10 pellets per round.

[soon 2 retire]

I don't know much about slugs but I came across these. Their monolith slugs would be the only ones that apply.

http://www.ddupleks.lv


Bob in Friday Harbor

[madman4570]

Am no guide(no expert for sure)
Another consideration might be a Remington 870 with a rifled slug barrel.

Those Winchester 12ga Supreme's have been at least for me(on bear)absolutely devastating.
This load is a Nosler Partition Gold 50cal 385gr jacketed sabot going 2000fps.(3419 ft lbs energy)

To give that some perspective a 500S&W (400gr)coming out of a long barreled handgun has (2877 ft lbs energy)
I shot a 485lb big black bear(no grizzly though)with that 12ga rd at 55 yds and it produced a one shot kill with complete pass through and did devastating results.(ran about 30ft)
Though I wouldn't use a 20ga when you can have a 12ga (Remington makes a 260gr .454 Casull bonded Core-Lokt Bullet fired out of a 3" 20ga at 2000fps)faster than the .454 Casull handgun shoots them buy 200fps.Their 2.75" load is still 100fps faster.(1900fps)than a long barreled .454 Casull handgun.

Also like Buck said those Brenneke's do the deal too.(I use the Green Lightnings with my 12ga Ithaca 37)


That Winchester Supreme 385gr load with the slug barrel, I view more as an accurate 50cal rifle that also shoots bird shot.(guys use those Supreme's in the Savage Bolt Shotguns and have extremely good results at 200yds)as I am sure a well scoped Rem 870(rifled barrel)would also have if one wanted it for such things.

But that 12ga with those 50 cal 385gr Partitions at 2000fps(someone say kinda like a real stiff 45-70)

Then next day throw some shot shells in er and shoot some upland birds/game or skeet with same rifled barrel.
First couple shot shells while bird/small game hunting,then next three 385grs in case Mr. Bear pops up and wants to eat ya.

[Grizz]

soon to retire

The dupleks style is what I have in mind. On a Finnish website I saw some russian made slugs turned from steel bar stock. That'd put the hurt on something. And turned brass slugs are well thought of in DG discussions. Fun to play with them.

I want to try the brennekes and James Gates' Dixie products also. Find the right combo for my uses. I like James' 3-ball load, I don't know if I'd use it as a stopper, but it could be just the thing for a head shot. No one offers their trophy brown bears for forensic experiments.

I'm pretty boring about my loads. Once I get something that works right, I keep using it.

The shotties are extremely versatile.

[Blaine]

soon to retire

The dupleks style is what I have in mind. On a Finnish website I saw some russian made slugs turned from steel bar stock. That'd put the hurt on something. And turned brass slugs are well thought of in DG discussions. Fun to play with them.

I want to try the brennekes and James Gates' Dixie products also. Find the right combo for my uses. I like James' 3-ball load, I don't know if I'd use it as a stopper, but it could be just the thing for a head shot. No one offers their trophy brown bears for forensic experiments.

I'm pretty boring about my loads. Once I get something that works right, I keep using it.

The shotties are extremely versatile.

Grizz, do you like those shotgun loads better than those 525s you loaded up...that was full penetration of 13(?) water filled gallon jugs IIRC. They shot about 1450, I think, out of my Cowboy...1300 from the BFR....A very serious load, and not painful to shoot.

[hfcable]

well i am a rifleman...prefer my heavy loaded 45/70 .....so i don't have to wait til they are way too close. having said that i do have some 12 ga slugs, like the brenekke and the BRI [ the old stock ones ] that i trust..... but the weight and balance of the rifle just gives me much more confidence.

[rjohns94]

I have a side by side double rifle made especially for and regulated to 75 yards for the brenneke black magic magnum dangerous game slug. Fully rifled barrels by Hastings, rifle sights on raised ribs. 600 grains at 1500fps muzzle yielding 1.8 inch groups at 50 yards. 3000ftlbs at muzzle.

My one and only bear, a 710# boar was knocked down with Remington slugs. Head on shot hit him on his right side in the cheek bone, breaking his jaw and the penetrating into the neck. That turned him and sent him down hill running and rolling. He came to rest on his back and proceeded to throw some small logs into the air but could not regain his feet. I shot him three times at point blank range with triple OOO buck (I was deer hunting) before he expired. That sent me on a quest for a better slug set up. I am pleased with what I have come up. Penetration tests through cinder block, wood, small trees and bovine carcass have seemed to indicate this slug is tough, retains it's weight, penetrates deeply and is accurate. Your results may vary but in this shotgun/rifle, I would bet my life on it.

[hfcable]

that sounds quite effective, and in a well balanced side by side....i could go for that setup!

[Grizz]

Thanks for that Mike.

I will get some and play with them. Do you have any photos of the pen tests on the cow?

Blaine,

I am not thinking that the shotgun is better than that piledriver, but I am thinking it is functionally equivilant. And easier to transport thru Canada and better for HD in CQ. I'm getting to the point where I don't want to travel without the 12, and don't want to pack a bunch of guns. For a one-gun scenario I'm leaning to the 'real' big bores. Heh

Regards,
Grizz

[Malamute]

I havent shot any critters with the Brennekes, but haven't heard of failures with them. They were well thought of in Africa in years past. There's a poster named stevlyn (sp?) on several forums, that is an LEO of some sort in Ak. He mentioned that he'd shot several problem bears with Brenneke slugs and had complete pass throughs in every case.

I keep some Brennekes for my short model 12 Winchester, but am more of a rifle fan than shotgun. The model 12 has a 20" barrel, sling, and rifle sights (Remington 700 rear, milled to the barrel profile, and Williams "shorty" ramp from with fat bead, all sweated on properly). The model 12 breaks down into a 20" long package, and holds 5 or 6 rounds from the factory. I got it to have an easy day pack gun for going thru Canada, but haven't been back since building it. Nice when travelling on the road in the states tho. I had a black soft case made for it that holds both parts broken down, it can lay on top of my black overnight duffle and people don't even notice I have it when going into a room. I bought a cheap beater model 12 for under $200 to start with. Rust pitted, chipped stock, already cut off. Perfect for what I wanted. The Brenneke loads shoot very well in this gun.


If you're interested in Alaskans opinions, there's a decent Alaskan outdoors forum. There's a fair amount of bear experience represented there. I look at the "Alaska shooting" section most often.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/ind ... 396bbfe698

[Cliff]

I don't know if this any help or not. Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore ammunition was very interested in developing a stopping slug. He mentioned some he thought were good and wanted to even improve on them some. His ammunition is great stuff and he doesn't put out any B.S. information. http://www.buffalobore.com I this is the correct adress. He was doing something back two or three years ago. Good luck, hope you find the ones you want. ATB

[madman4570]

I have a side by side double rifle made especially for and regulated to 75 yards for the brenneke black magic magnum dangerous game slug. Fully rifled barrels by Hastings, rifle sights on raised ribs. 600 grains at 1500fps muzzle yielding 1.8 inch groups at 50 yards. 3000ftlbs at muzzle.

My one and only bear, a 710# boar was knocked down with Remington slugs. Head on shot hit him on his right side in the cheek bone, breaking his jaw and the penetrating into the neck. That turned him and sent him down hill running and rolling. He came to rest on his back and proceeded to throw some small logs into the air but could not regain his feet. I shot him three times at point blank range with triple OOO buck (I was deer hunting) before he expired. That sent me on a quest for a better slug set up. I am pleased with what I have come up. Penetration tests through cinder block, wood, small trees and bovine carcass have seemed to indicate this slug is tough, retains it's weight, penetrates deeply and is accurate. Your results may vary but in this shotgun/rifle, I would bet my life on it.

That combo is about as good as it gets!
Even a fairly inexpensive 3" double 12ga like a (Stoeger Outback)with those slugs would work for "close up" and bad dealings.(good point Mike)

Gun is even black to match the Black Magics

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firear ... utback.php

[rjohns94]

Grizz, I will look for the pictures. I think they were on another computer long gone (changed jobs) but the slugs shot through both shoulders of the cow, shattering the joints completely. I was amazed and pleased. These slugs shoot through deer like they do a sheet of paper.

[JFE]

You might want to take a look at these slugs available in Europe:

http://www.europeancartridgeunlimited.c ... sslug.html

[buckeyeshooter]

The best slugs I ever used were the 1 3/8 oz remington copper solids. Big expanding nose (like a barnes X) and the solid copper. I still have 8 left of the heavys. They quit making the heavy but the 1oz still in production. I like te heavys better.

[Grizz]

Mike,

No need to go looking. I've seen 45/70 slo-mo slugs thru bone joints and I imagine the results with the shotgun slugs are going to be in the same ballpark.

JFE

Thank you for that link. That is exactly what I have in mind. I might have a mold cut for casting that slug. I might turn some or I might buy some of the brass ones. They should be absolutely reliable on breaking and entering.

Speaking of slug performance, in my sleepless night I watched a crime program of a kid who killed his parents, shooting them point blank with Federal 2-3/4 12 ga slugs. The slugs were recovered, but whether from the bed or from the bodies they didn't specify. I had the impression that the slugs stayed in the bodies. And that is the WHY of why I don't want to depend on soft lead shotgun slugs for a DG stopper. A true penetrator would likely have gone thru the floor.

Best
Grizz

[Canuck Bob]

Thanks guys,

A real education. I have wanted to add a nice pump shotgun for awhile as my only shotgun is an old single shot Mossberg. The little 20 gauge BPS Upland model suits my shotgun needs just fine. I used to use the old 12 gauge for rabbit hunting and geese. For woods loafing I carried a few CIL slugs and practiced without sights. I would never have done it except for survival needs but considered 50 paces as a capable moose distance (survival type testing).

I also want the 20 gauge for home protection. It suits my needs and our laws. I also have started to assemble a set of truck guns for carrying while travelling as a salesman that take down. I got a 92 32-20, a Handi 22 Hornet, and looking at a pump with replaceable barrels. My 444 is too much gun for carrying because I need the firearms to go in a suitcase. Anyone know how complicated changing a BPS barrel is?

I think a 20 gauge with the right slugs will be acceptable after reading here.

[BigSky56]

Bob I work with a BC cowboy that has dual citizenship he is a guide and hunts in BC Ive seen his bear gun its a greener 20 ga 20" bbls I know hes taken a few brown bears over the years up on the Fraser Plateau, Ive seen the pics and he has one rug here. His grandfather and dad have killed their share with a 94 saddle gun and 303 brit. danny

[rimrock]

I want to ask folks with direct experience in big bear country a question. What do you think or what do locals think of the 12 gauge slug gun as a camp gun? What about the lowly 20 gauge?

I know that locals in the far north often carry a 12 gauge for bear protection. I was just wondering what locals in Alaska's big bear country think. I'm talking camp gun not a bear hunting rifle. I wouldn't drop the hammer unless they were close and threatening.

The 12 gauge slug up close is a heavy hitter but sometimes folks with real experience might surprise a guy with their answers.

The reason I'm asking is the only real hole left in my safe is a nice repeater shotgun. I was considering a 20 gauge then considered this idea. My current camp gun is a 444 but I'm moving to woods loafing carry guns that break down.

Keep using your .444 with something like these 450 grain stompers:

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/444-m ... rifle.html

rimrock

[86er]

I've shot a lot of black bear but only one brown. However, I have experimented much with slugs. Mostly on water buffalo. Rem Buckhammer 1.25 ounce proved best penetration and durability of 11 kinds tested. 20 gauge 1 1/8 oz penetrated slightly more when they didn't break. The shape is hourglass and sometimes on resistance the 20s broke at the thin waist where the 12s never did. There were a few other good ones like Thors Hammer, but I won't go into them because they are special order and as much as $5 a round

[Grizz]

I neglected to add this info when the topic was current, but it's very interesting stuff:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... 5257a6ec9c

fun stuff to read and lots to learn

Grizz

[Malamute]

...I also want the 20 gauge for home protection. It suits my needs and our laws. I also have started to assemble a set of truck guns for carrying while travelling as a salesman that take down.... My 444 is too much gun for carrying because I need the firearms to go in a suitcase. Anyone know how complicated changing a BPS barrel is?...

Don't know about the BPS guns and barrel changes. If you can deal with the right side ejection, a Winchester model 12 is about as handy as can be in a repeating shotgun that can takedown. I've carried mine in a suitcase before. I've swapped barrels with another model 12 and it went right on, no problem (and you adjust another barrel assembly to fit easily). If you can find a cheap one that's sloppy loose at the barrel/receiver junction (for cheap), they adjust easily to take up the wear. 3 or 4 minutes with a swiss army knife, and mine was good as new, from being so bad it rattled loudly to shake it. I think I got such a good deal on it becaue everyone thought it was a total loss from being so loose.

Vid showing the takedown,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgd9JDFoYJA

[BigSky56]

Bob I saw a pic of the bear with the wad in its nose, there was also a 13 year old kid that heard a ruckus in the chicken coup over by Hungry Horse his dad told him to take a 20 ga and check it out as they'd been having trouble with skunks lad had to shoot a big old sow coming at him dont knock birdshot up close it will geter done just like a 22 will. danny


MT) Shotgun blast kills charging grizzly 10-14-03
Date: Oct 15, 2003 2:01 AM
http://www.dailyinterlake.com/NewsEngin ... -734891-41

Shotgun blast drops charging grizzly
By Jim Mann
The Daily Inter Lake

Two aggressive grizzly bears have been shot, one by a hunter and one by
a Fortine homeowner.

A Kalispell man shot a stalking grizzly bear in the Swan Mountains and a
Fortine man shot a grizzly at close range, narrowly escaping as the bear
charged from a chicken coop.

James Beeman picked up a .410-gauge shotgun when he went outside his
Fortine-area home to investigate a commotion from his chicken coop
around 4 a.m. Sunday.

Wearing a headlamp and expecting a skunk, Beeman saw two bear cubs run
from the damaged door of the chicken coop. Then an adult grizzly bear
emerged with a chicken in its mouth.

The bear dropped the chicken and charged from 15 feet. Beeman fired,
with the muzzle of the gun roughly three feet from the bear, which
crumpled to ground, dead at Beeman's feet.

It turned out to be an astounding shot, considering a .410 is a light
gun and the shell contained a light load typically used for quail
hunting.

But it hit the bear squarely in the nose, the only soft, vulnerable
place on a grizzly skull. Pellets likely penetrated the length of the
nasal cavity to the brain. The wad from the shell was imbedded in the
bear's nose.

"What's the likelihood of that?" said Ed Kelly, Montana Fish, Wildlife
and Parks warden captain in Kalispell. "I know guys with .375s who
couldn't have made a kill like that. He's just a lucky, lucky guy."

Kelly said the shooting was a "justifiable case of self defense."

The bear was a 350-pound female.

[tman]

I've shot a lot of black bear but only one brown. However, I have experimented much with slugs. Mostly on water buffalo. Rem Buckhammer 1.25 ounce proved best penetration and durability of 11 kinds tested. 20 gauge 1 1/8 oz penetrated slightly more when they didn't break. The shape is hourglass and sometimes on resistance the 20s broke at the thin waist where the 12s never did. There were a few other good ones like Thors Hammer, but I won't go into them because they are special order and as much as $5 a round

Any experience with the 12 Gauge BuckHammer/ Thinking to switch to it because of cost. Thanks, Tman.

[86er]

The Buckhammer that worked best was the 12 gauge - TMan. The 3" heavy guys will get your attention, but they worked extremely well.

[Idiot]

I really like Rottweil's 3" 12-ga load, with the 600 gr Brenneke. It shoots well for me in unrifled, cylinder-bore barrels. It penetrates and holds together very well, and is much harder than the Forster-type, hollow-base slugs..
Another alternative could be Winchester's plated 000 Buck, in 3" persuasion.. 10 pellets per round.

Ditto. Brenneke Black Magic's are the ones I'd use. I suspect they are very similar to Rottweil's version. I've tested the Black Magic's (3") in truck doors and they penetrate like crazy and do not come apart (two steel truck doors leaned against each other with a 3/4" plywood backing - full penetration through all of it). http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/blackmagic.html