Wandering lyman scale, mistake in the 777 load info?

[FatJackDurham]

Two questions for y'all.

1) I bought the Lyman TMag Turret reloading kit which includes, a Lyman digital scale. Problem is, after calibrating the scale per the directions, the scale will wander plus or minus almost half a grain. That is kind of an issue when you have just one grain between min and max. Anyone else have this issue? Literally, I can zero it, calibrate it. Then, just watching it, it will change.

2) The load data from Hodgdon on the Triple 7 black powder page at http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/muzzleloadin ... CKBOX_1=on shows for Cartridge Loads shows for 38 special shows 20 grains of powder for a 125 grain bullet, 15 grains for a 158 grain bullet. That can't be right. I couldn't get 20 grains into a 38 special case if I crushed to fine powder and packed it in with a ram. 20 grains filled the case, the void in the funnel and back up above the venturi. 15 grains about fills the case, and packs down okay. A 140 grain bullet fits halfway into the case at the listed COL. Haven't fired it yet. Anyone have any experience with this load?

[w30wcf]

Sorry I can't help with the Lyman scale. I would suggest calling Lyman and speaking to them about it.

Regarding 777, the charges are in volume, not gr. weight. Volume meaning that if you have some black powder, set the measure to drop 20 grs. Then use that setting to dispense the 777.

In my experience, 777 weighs about 25% less on average than b.p. meaning that the 20 gr volume would = 15.0 grs by weight. Dump the powder slowly into the case to settle it.

w30wcf

[Old Ranger]

Partner, I can't help ya with that scale issue. Might be best to contact Lyman and get their views on it. I often use a Frankford Arsenal Digital scale and have found it to be spot on in it's accuracy. I have noticed that it there's ANY air moving near it, it will change with the powder just sitting in it! Those things are REAL sensitive to that sort of thing.

Now as to the T7 powder....That stuff is like other BP subs; volume, not weight. Perhaps build a dipper from a .38 case and go with that. T7 pressures go throught the roof if it gets compressed too much. Personally, I quit using BP subs in my cartridge loads from a rusting issue I had in a .45-70 involving T7.

Hope you find a solution to the problem...

Wade

[2571]

Bad ju-ju measuring bp by weight.

[harry]

Lostowl05661 you have to read the data, says "Powder Measure Setting". As stated make your own dippers with cases of that caliber, 38 use a 38 case. 45 use a 45 case and so on.
Harry

[harry]

Bad ju-ju measuring bp by weight.

Measuring black powder by weight is fine, Its the substitute that you don't want to weigh grain for grain against black powder.
Harry

[pdentrem]

I work with very sensitive scales at work. Just shifting your position will cause air movement. Also what is the floor like? Wood moves as you move. Table moves as well. Is the scale level?Is the furnace running, causes air movement. Are you breathing on it?

Usually airflow, even breathing, floor or table are the issues. If you were to put a box around the scale, 3 sided helps with air flow problems. If it changes due to structure then you have to find a better place for it.

Although not the problem in your case, digital scales require a minimum amount on the scale before it will read properly. We have a scale that read to .001 of a gram but requires .02 or above to be accurate.

If these tips do not help then I would look at the scale itself.

[FatJackDurham]

Lostowl05661 you have to read the data, says "Poder Measure Setting". As stated make your own dippers with cases of that caliber, 38 use a 38 case. 45 use a 45 case and so on.
Harry

Wow! Thanks! I have a ton of cartridges to empty and reload! I am wicked glad I didnt shoot it yet.

You know, I have tried to move slowly and carefully. Ive read two books, consulted some experienced reloaders, but somehow I missed that black powder isn measured by volume not weight. Very lucky I consulted you.

Regarding the scale, I've tried a couple of locations. I think the last thing I can do short of putting it on the floor is... i have a granite true plate on one of my work benches, it weighs about 100 lbs. I can level that and put the scale on that. As long as I don't touch the bench, that should be as still as I can get the scale during use.

[Les Staley]

Lostowl: DO NOT FIRE THAT CARTIDGE YOU LOADED.. UNLOAD IT!!!! GET YOURSELF A BLACK POWDER MEASURE (BY VOLUME) AND LOAD 20 GR BY VOLUME!! then check the weight of the charge in a scale.. it will prolly be around 15 grains by weight. CAREFUL.. DON'T BLOW YERSELF UP!!! Les

[FatJackDurham]

Lostowl: DO NOT FIRE THAT CARTIDGE YOU LOADED.. UNLOAD IT!!!! GET YOURSELF A BLACK POWDER MEASURE (BY VOLUME) AND LOAD 20 GR BY VOLUME!! then check the weight of the charge in a scale.. it will prolly be around 15 grains by weight. CAREFUL.. DON'T BLOW YERSELF UP!!! Les

Yep! Me and the extractor hammer will be getting a working tonight!!! I read this article about the subject : http://www.davidscottharper.com/shoot/BP_for_CAS.htm and it cleared things up.

One thing this article says, as well as the actual manufacturer advice of another powder, was to fill the cartridge with black powder until it just meets where the bottom of the bullet will be. Compress with the bullet not more than 1/16 of an inch. Thoughts on this?

Most all my loads meet this criteria, about 12 gr by weight in a 38 special case. However, I plan to empty them all and re do it.

I also read in a book that when you are making SASS BP loads, you may have to use less powder and to wad with carefully cut squares of TP.

In anycase, no one should worry. I am not going to shoot any of the loads I have already done until I reload them.

ANother question for experienced BP in cartridge shooters. The article above says that petroleum lubes should be avoided. What is Ballistol? The article claims that WD 40 is acceptible. Does anyone else have experience with gun oils in cartridge guns with BP?

Thanks again.

[Old Ranger]

Petroleum based lubes tend to cause the fouling of BP to get real bad, real fast. Animal fat based lube will lessen the effect of BP fouling. As with a BP revolver. You can put regular gun oil on the basepin and it will get real hard to rotate the cylinder in a very short time. Animal fat based lube on it will give you many more loading before it too starts to gum up...WD40 is not a good thing for weapons of any sort. It has little lube effect and will attack primers in cases to the point of killing the primers! I'd avoid WD40...

After you shoot your BP, or BP sub loaded cases, be sure to drop them into a container of water to kill the corrosion that is starting after firing. Some folks will add different stuff to the water like vinegar to reduce the acidic effect. Then later, at home you can clean the cases and toss them into the tumber after drying.

After shooting, and still at the range, you can use Windex with vineger to spray your weapon down and remove a lot of fouling before you leave. Then of course, when you get home....CLEAN it with water and/or a good BP solvent that is effective. The sulfer and potasium nitrate residue in burnt BP will eat the metal in a hurry if you don't kill it with water! (warm water helps to evaporate faster, but is not absolutely the only way) You will get many different methods from many different folks on care and cleaning of BP weapons and cases. Ask ten shooters and you'll get 15 answers!! But as everyone has their own methods, you'll get your own routine down and have fun with it..

Good luck in your shooting and loading!!

Wade

[Don McDowell]

Lostowl: DO NOT FIRE THAT CARTIDGE YOU LOADED.. UNLOAD IT!!!! GET YOURSELF A BLACK POWDER MEASURE (BY VOLUME) AND LOAD 20 GR BY VOLUME!! then check the weight of the charge in a scale.. it will prolly be around 15 grains by weight. CAREFUL.. DON'T BLOW YERSELF UP!!! Les

Yep! Me and the extractor hammer will be getting a working tonight!!! I read this article about the subject : http://www.davidscottharper.com/shoot/BP_for_CAS.htm and it cleared things up.

One thing this article says, as well as the actual manufacturer advice of another powder, was to fill the cartridge with black powder until it just meets where the bottom of the bullet will be. Compress with the bullet not more than 1/16 of an inch. Thoughts on this?

Most all my loads meet this criteria, about 12 gr by weight in a 38 special case. However, I plan to empty them all and re do it.

I also read in a book that when you are making SASS BP loads, you may have to use less powder and to wad with carefully cut squares of TP.

In anycase, no one should worry. I am not going to shoot any of the loads I have already done until I reload them.

ANother question for experienced BP in cartridge shooters. The article above says that petroleum lubes should be avoided. What is Ballistol? The article claims that WD 40 is acceptible. Does anyone else have experience with gun oils in cartridge guns with BP?

Thanks again.

Ok, 777 is not blackpowder, it is a fake stuff junk intended to be used on a blackpowder volume basis.
Blackpowder charges always have been and always will be weighed in grains or drams, the fake stuff like 777 you are supposed to fill the blackpowder measure set to a predetermined grains weight setting, the actual charge will not weigh what the measure says it will, it will be lighter.
Hogdons instructions for loading their fake stuff are fairly straight forward, you fill the case until the bullet compresses the charge no more than 1/10 of an inch.
Ballistol is a fairly popular "gun oil" in the bpcr circles, especially using a mixed solution with water to wipe the bore between shots. If you use straight ballistol to oil the bore it does not do a particulary good job of long term protection. WD40 does work but there are better choices. You may or may not experience some rather nasty leading if you don't wipe the bore clean of any oil residue before firing the first round.
Rem Oil is a good oil to give the bore a final wipedown after cleaning.
You will need to clean those cartridge cases after you fire them, wash them in hot soapy water, dry and them tumble them to polish. The residue from 777 and other fake stuff will destroy the brass if left unattended over time.
Petroleum lubes may or may not bother blackpowder, vaseline and steam cylinder oil were popular ingredients to add with beeswax or ozokerite, in bullet lubes back in the day. As the fake stuff 777 is not blackpowder it probably matters little whether or not your bullet lube or gunoil has petroleum products in it.

[Griff]

Don,

Now you got me confused. BP is measured by volume. My BP measures specifically have graduated markings or set points that are marked 10 grains, 20 grains, 30 grains, etc. to about 150. My flask's pour spout is cut to dump 17 grains of BP into my .36 Caliber Navies. I have read this from many sources and from some 35 years of shooting BP in muzzleloaders or cartridges.

Triple Seven (777)™, according to my 49th Lyman manual (in the section for loading Winchester 1876 Clones) has a couple of charges listed for 777, which are noted specifically (by weight). And on Hodgdon's website, it appears that they also refer to weight not volume in their load specs.

Maybe my cold-remedy has befuddled me this am and I ain't reading what you're sayin' right?

[harry]

From Hodgdon's website:

All charges of Triple Seven or Pyrodex should be measured by VOLUME not weight. A simple, adjustable blackpowder measure is the correct tool for this job. All loads listed in this brochure are measured by VOLUME.
Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. *See WARNING below.
Pyrodex is lighter in weight than blackpowder and weighs only about 70% as much as blackpowder. However, because Pyrodex yields more energy per pound than does blackpowder, the same volume of Pyrodex gives similar performance to blackpowder. Pyrodex loads given in this manual for muzzleloading guns are measured by volume, not weight.

"Measuring black powder by weight is fine, Its the substitute that you don't want to weigh grain for grain against black powder."

"My BP measures specifically have graduated markings or set points that are marked 10 grains, 20 grains, 30 grains, etc. to about 150"

That is by weight, if you use fake BP (pyrodex, 777, buckhorn 209, white hot) you use the same settings but the weight is quite a bit less than the grains on your measure.

"according to my 49th Lyman manual (in the section for loading Winchester 1876 Clones) has a couple of charges listed for 777, which are noted specifically (by weight).

Did you notice in Lyman that for the 40-60 (60 grains Black powder) you use 34.5 gr of 777. and 45-60 is 32. grans 777. so you are using almost half the weight but the same volume.

Harry

[Don McDowell]

Don,

Now you got me confused. BP is measured by volume. My BP measures specifically have graduated markings or set points that are marked 10 grains, 20 grains, 30 grains, etc. to about 150. My flask's pour spout is cut to dump 17 grains of BP into my .36 Caliber Navies. I have read this from many sources and from some 35 years of shooting BP in muzzleloaders or cartridges.

Triple Seven (777)™, according to my 49th Lyman manual (in the section for loading Winchester 1876 Clones) has a couple of charges listed for 777, which are noted specifically (by weight). And on Hodgdon's website, it appears that they also refer to weight not volume in their load specs.

Maybe my cold-remedy has befuddled me this am and I ain't reading what you're sayin' right?

Griff Blackpowder charges have ALWAYS been measured in grains or drams. The Sharps and Remington Catalogs from the 1870's expressed the importance of carefully weighing powder charges , and gave charts demonstrating how a 2 gr variation in powder charge weight could throw the point of impact off sufficient to cause low scores and irratic grouping especially at distance. Sharps in one of their catalogs even went so far as to provide a chart on converting apothicaries to grains weight, as apparently at that time apothicary scales were readily available.
Fast forward to the 1940's, Lyman/Ideal noted in their reloading handbooks the wonders of the Lyman 55 powder measure , as it graduation markings on the slides were for the exact grains weight of blackpowder charges.
The problem began when Hogdons came out with their Pyrodex, it was intended to be used as most folks know on a volume basis, whereby a blackpowder measure was set to a grains weight charge and then filled to that level with Pyrodex, and supposedly the performance of that charge would be the same as the blackpowder. They even went so far as to provide charts in their freebee handout load data that indicated how much a pyrodex charge would weigh given the powder measure setting at various grains. Even today on their online data they tell us that a blackpowder measure set for a given grains weight charge is the proper tool to dispense the fake stuff.
There is mass confusion that has been wrongly put out by folks that don't know anybetter about blackpowder charges being thrown by volume. Well the question becomes volumes of WHAT, coffee cups , thimbles????
Your would think their first clue would be the old cartridges,,, 45-70-405,, that 70 ought to trigger a brain cell somewhere... 44-40.....
If and when you find a scale that provides readout in volumes would you please let me know as I have never been able to get one that does that, not even the modern digital scales I have. They always want to display grains, drams, ounces.... but no ******* volumes.

[FatJackDurham]

Sounds to me like careful planning is needed to shoot BP or Sim. That Windex/Vinegar sounds like a good and easy tip to bring to the range on BP/Sim days.

Any good tips for brass drying? Middle of winter, the air is pretty dry, but it seems moisture could linger a bit.

[Don McDowell]

The windex with vinegar will cause some flash rusting problems.
You won't need anything with your 777.
If you do happen to get ahold of some real blackpowder, 10%ballistol and water makes a fair wiping solution. Even 50-50 mix of RV antifreeze and water works well.

With real blackpowder there's no real careful plannin needed, it's the "high energy" stuff like 777 that can wreck stuff. You really need to shoot real black, and then decide what is the advantage of shooting the fake stuff over smokeless? other than a billowing cloud of white smoke, that is at least double or triple what you would get from blackpowder..

[Old Ranger]

A toaster oven works nicely. Toss your brass on an old cookie sheet and set if for 200 to 250. Give it about 10 or 15 minutes and let them cool. You're done...IF you can leave the oven door open slightly, it will help as the mositure will escape out the open door rather than hang around inside....

[Griff]

We've apparently read two different things. Hodgdon apparently removed their old sub data and replaced it with the downloadable .pdf file. And I see that now Hodgdon is giving recommendations for Triple 7 based on volume also. With an apparent reduction from their Pyrodex recommendation.

Ok Don, I'll defer to the history lesson... what I learned in the 70's, I'll still say, is that I measure real BP by VOLUME. I have used most of the subs, at least one can... well, except for that Blackthorn or whatever. Too danged expensive. To be brutally honest, I've never weighed BP and compared that to the volume markings on my measures. If that marking of 10, 20, or whatever happens to equal the same number in grains... happy circumstance in my mind. Because BP can vary in weight from batch to batch, the volume to weight ratio varies. But, measuring by volume, I get VERY consistent loads if I fill and keep my technique the same. The actual weight of 50 grains (by volume) of real BP is meaningless to me.

However Triple 7 is more potent than BP or most other subs... therefore Hodgdon's recommendation is to reduce volume by 15%. I won a can of Triple 7 at a match... I used it up in shotshells, as frankly, I don't care for the subs at all. And in accordance with Hodgdon's recommendations I went from a #43 bushing on my Mec to a #37, which was as close to a 15% reduction in VOLUME as I could get. And I couldn't tell any differrence between my real BP and the Triple 7 loads (except the 777 loads didn't stink right)! IMO, Pyrodex should be taken off the market, it's extremely corrosive and damaging to guns... takes 3 or 4 cleanings to BP's ONE! And, then must still be checked every few days to make sure you don't have some rust showing up somewhere.

Of all the subs, only APP has a redeeming value. That's the ability to use the same lubes you use for smokeless powders.

When I set either my Dillon or Lyman 55 powder measures up to load BP, I check the volume I'm dumping against an old variable measure that has a graduated scale on the sliding piece, that I can set in increments of 5 (for a visual, think "tire gauge"). For the 45Colt I set it to 25, 30 or 35 depending on the load I want; and for the .40-90SBN I set it to 85 (@ 90 I have to vibrate the cases a LOT to get that extra 5 grains in). When the powder measure dumps the exact amount to fill that old measure... I'm set, go reloading!

I see no reason to use anything but real BP. If you're unfortunate enough to live in a area that won't allow sales of BP... well ok, moving might be inconvienent, so I can only offer my condolences. I never recommend a sub, especially Pyrodex. With real BP I never have to question what chemical formulation I'm getting, nor what long term effects it will have on my guns. I can predict it's performance with a fair degree of accuracy, and cleanup is a breeze; easier and less time consuming than copper or lead fouling found with smokeless. Hot water, a few swabs, and then oil.

Edited to note how I measure my BP loads... I'll have to try comparing my various BP measures (volume) and weighing the charges they throw. Likely cause an old dog to learn a new trick! My head hurts thinking about it... or my cold medicine is wearin' off!

[Don McDowell]

Griff using old Goex 2f (moosic and belin production) it is pretty amazing just how close the adjustable powder measures are to the setting's.... My old Ideal shotgun measure throws really close to the settings when using black as well...
Lotsa confusion got started with this "sub" stuff.. Worst part of it was some of it was foisted by folks that should of known better....

[FatJackDurham]

When I set either my Dillon or Lyman 55 powder measures up to load BP, I check the volume I'm dumping against an old variable measure that has a graduated scale on the sliding piece, that I can set in increments of 5 (for a visual, think "tire gauge"). For the 45Colt I set it to 25, 30 or 35 depending on the load I want; and for the .40-90SBN I set it to 85 (@ 90 I have to vibrate the cases a LOT to get that extra 5 grains in). When the powder measure dumps the exact amount to fill that old measure... I'm set, go reloading!
[/i]

Ding! You mean that gradient scale on the side of the lyman powder measure is volume? I wondered why they put a scale there when powder was to be measured by weight!!!!